Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Earlier, Rafale production + LCA production --> FGFA production + simpler AMCA production.
Now, LCA production + Rafale production --> reconfigured AMCA production

The delays in all our programs have allowed our indigenous industry to catch up with IAF demands. It's made us weaker in the short term, but the long term benefits are greater.

Anyway, this isn't about India. It is about how Russia is being unnecessarily underestimated. They have both the money and the technology, and this is going to become evident over time as more stuff comes out in open source.
I don't think I'm underestimating the Rafale. It's a good 4.5gen when it's finished. Lack of funding has been the issue. Now that there has been significant export sales. If the buyers work together with France to fund development of updates. I see no problem.

It's just comical when the fanboys turn cartwheels, to try and compare it to 5th gen.
 
The IAF is different, they paid $50 m to get what they needed. Did you read the article, it specifically referred to AESA F3
"However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar."

Look, a lot of that stuff is the customisation that other air forces want and the Europeans provide. The Americans otoh just tell everyone to bugger off. Which is why most of the serious air forces around the world with actual threats operate European stuff, while operators of American tech are those that are just allies or client states with lesser focus on fighting wars independently.

The Americans have allowed major changes on their jets only for the Israelis and those who pay a frick-load of money for their own version, like the UAE with F-16 B60 and Japan with the F-2. Everybody else largely flies stock with minimal modifications. Even India's so-called F-21 is merely the F-16 B70 with a new name.
 
Yes, the IAF upgrades are good. The US will allow buyers to self fund F-35 additions, if they want. Some want to add missiles. Some want add their own EW. In general, it's mostly used as sold, with US updates.
When you buy a Rafale for $105m, add $55m of extras =$160m flyaway. If you think 2x F-35 @ 80m = 1 Rafale. That's good.
 
I don't think I'm underestimating the Rafale. It's a good 4.5gen when it's finished. Lack of funding has been the issue. Now that there has been significant export sales. If the buyers work together with France to fund development of updates. I see no problem.

It's just comical when the fanboys turn cartwheels, to try and compare it to 5th gen.

Okay, this is how it goes, Rafale F1/2/3 were configured in the late 80s for a post 2000 world, the F3+ was configured in the late 90s for a post 2010 world. The F-35 was configured in the 2000s for a post 2020 world. So, the avionics in its basic capabilities today, the F-35 beats the Rafale F3R. This is what was demonstrated in the Swiss evals. Otoh, the F4 was configured in the late 2010s for a post 2030 world. In this case, the F4 will surpass the F-35's current set of avionics. The F4 catches up with the F-35's avionics with newer hardware, like GaN, and then adds even more features.

So, when it comes to avionics, different builds will give us different results in competitions. It's only a question of which build is chosen by which air force. The Swiss seem to have chosen F3R for their evaluation since they were looking at what's operational today rather than what they will operate at the time of delivery, whereas the Finnish seem to be evaluating the F4.2 because they want what they will actually operate at the time of delivery. India had chosen the first method for MMRCA too. So it's a choice between low risk and high risk. The IAF had chosen FGFA for its high risk component, and the Finnish may be choosing the F4.2 as their high risk component.

Now the question is whether the F4.2 matches up to or exceeds the F-35's overall capabilities. We already know the Rafale's performance, particularly in A2A, is significantly superior to the F-35, and we know that once the F4.2 comes online, it's going to be a step up over the F-35. With high agility, supercruise and avionics in the future Rafale's favour, the main parameter now is survivability using stealth.

The F-35 gets its stealth using passive means, it uses shaping and RAM/RAS combo for stealth. As per open source info, 60-70% of it comes through shaping, the rest through RAM/RAS, a huge improvement over the F-22's 95% dependency on shaping alone. Otoh, the Rafale uses active means by way of destroying the radar waves themselves using destructive interference. That's pretty much 100% through electronic means alone.

Now, what the French say is, while active cancellation has been in the Rafale since the beginning, it is going into the LO/VLO area with the F4. As of 2020, the frontal RCS of a prototype is said to be in the 0.0001m2 class clean, the size of a sparrow, although Picdel says it drops by a magnitude to 0.001-0.01m2, the size of a large bird, with external weapons. Naturally, this will see improvements over time. Otoh, the F-35's stealth, which is fixed, will degrade over time, likely even eliminated. So what's important to the Finnish is what the F-35's stealth capabilities will be in comparison to the Rafale in 2030, the most relevant year for the Finnish.

Hence the eager wait for the Finnish results. Their way of evaluations, especially by making the final choice purely on tech specs alone, should end the debate once and for all. Whether the Rafale is better or worse than the F-35, we will know for sure, to the full extent of what's considered open source, by the end of next month.
 
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Okay, this is how it goes, Rafale F1/2/3 were configured in the late 80s for a post 2000 world, the F3+ was configured in the late 90s for a post 2010 world. The F-35 was configured in the 2000s for a post 2020 world. So, the avionics in its basic capabilities today, the F-35 beats the Rafale F3R. This is what was demonstrated in the Swiss evals. Otoh, the F4 was configured in the late 2010s for a post 2030 world. In this case, the F4 will surpass the F-35's current set of avionics. The F4 catches up with the F-35's avionics with newer hardware, like GaN, and then adds even more features.

So, when it comes to avionics, different builds will give us different results in competitions. It's only a question of which build is chosen by which air force. The Swiss seem to have chosen F3R for their evaluation since they were looking at what's operational today rather than what they will operate at the time of delivery, whereas the Finnish seem to be evaluating the F4.2 because they want what they will actually operate at the time of delivery. India had chosen the first method for MMRCA too. So it's a choice between low risk and high risk. The IAF had chosen FGFA for its high risk component, and the Finnish may be choosing the F4.2 as their high risk component.

Now the question is whether the F4.2 matches up to or exceeds the F-35's overall capabilities. We already know the Rafale's performance, particularly in A2A, is significantly superior to the F-35, and we know that once the F4.2 comes online, it's going to be a step up over the F-35. With high agility, supercruise and avionics in the future Rafale's favour, the main parameter now is survivability using stealth.

The F-35 gets its stealth using passive means, it uses shaping and RAM/RAS combo for stealth. As per open source info, 60-70% of it comes through shaping, the rest through RAM/RAS, a huge improvement over the F-22's 95% dependency on shaping alone. Otoh, the Rafale uses active means by way of destroying the radar waves themselves using destructive interference. That's pretty much 100% through electronic means alone.

Now, what the French say is, while active cancellation has been in the Rafale since the beginning, it is going into the LO/VLO area with the F4. As of 2020, the frontal RCS of a prototype is said to be in the 0.0001m2 class clean, the size of a sparrow, although Picdel says it drops by a magnitude to 0.001-0.01m2, the size of a large bird, with external weapons. Naturally, this will see improvements over time. Otoh, the F-35's stealth, which is fixed, will degrade over time, likely even eliminated. So what's important to the Finnish is what the F-35's stealth capabilities will be in comparison to the Rafale in 2030, the most relevant year for the Finnish.

Hence the eager wait for the Finnish results. Their way of evaluations, especially by making the final choice purely on tech specs alone, should end the debate once and for all. Whether the Rafale is better or worse than the F-35, we will know for sure, to the full extent of what's considered open source, by the end of next month.
I'm not so sure. If you go on the corporalfrisk.com, a finnish blog forum you will follow very nice articles. What he is trying to explain is that Finland don't look at the best fighter, but the best solution to defend Finland at a given budget. From it's own word "If a crayon fit into this definition" then the crayon could have been choosen. What are to be consider is the political factor. Finland has a defensive posture against Russia. If the plane change this posture this have to be considered as the plane itself. Then if you take any of them how each of the package fighter/politic give the best solution to defend Finland ?
 
I 'm thinking that even If Rafale is bought by UAE then rafale has not to be taken as a best technical, but a best overall solution not to deepen relationship toward China. As you have stated above, If you goes with F-35 you choose to collaborate with US to the point of threatening your commercial exchanges with China. Not eveyone is able to do so.
 
I'm not so sure. If you go on the corporalfrisk.com, a finnish blog forum you will follow very nice articles. What he is trying to explain is that Finland don't look at the best fighter, but the best solution to defend Finland at a given budget. From it's own word "If a crayon fit into this definition" then the crayon could have been choosen. What are to be consider is the political factor. Finland has a defensive posture against Russia. If the plane change this posture this have to be considered as the plane itself. Then if you take any of them how each of the package fighter/politic give the best solution to defend Finland ?

The Finnish need to choose the best jet in the end anyway.
 
What is fiction is the form of a dialogue between two people, because in reality the exchanges were much more complex with backtracking, many organisations involved and points of view that were refined during the exchanges. But every Indian here knows that in substance this is not an invention on my part but a true description of what happened.

"Its fiction but its also true!" he insisted.
I don't need anything, I don't care if you believe me or not, if I answer you it is to inform Indian readers, not you.

Thank you for your great posting of click bait, invented stories, political diatribes, and terrible news articles to inform the unwashed masses. I was beginning to worry you were just some kind of French Homer, Dassault Fanboy there for a second!

You just forget that Indians can measure performance every day.
F-35 operators see the performance every day as well and you completely dismiss it. When confronted with facts you fall back not on the professionalism you claim, not on the knowledge you pretend to possess, but on standard click bait articles that someone of your caliber should be able to see are sensationalist drivel. When that fails you begin with the political rants. You don't give or share with us anything new, just youtuber level commentary. Right down to the tinfoil hat rants. It is very disappointing. I wish you would share with us some real knowledge, the work history in your posts is never on display here. its an airplane guy who wants to talk about anything but airplanes. nothing suspicious there!



our clapped out CF-18s have better radar than Rafale, and thank the gods Dassault dropped out and ran away in Canada
 
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Now the question is whether the F4.2 matches up to or exceeds the F-35's overall capabilities. We already know the Rafale's performance, particularly in A2A, is significantly superior to the F-35, and we know that once the F4.2 comes online, it's going to be a step up over the F-35. With high agility, supercruise and avionics in the future Rafale's favour, the main parameter now is survivability using stealth.
I don't know if you believe that or just making fun.
 

our clapped out CF-18s have better radar than Rafale, and thank the gods Dassault dropped out and ran away in Canada
You omitted that it is GaN radar. The one the Rafale fanboys have been telling us about for years. How the Rafale will be the first.
 
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Yes, the IAF upgrades are good. The US will allow buyers to self fund F-35 additions, if they want. Some want to add missiles. Some want add their own EW. In general, it's mostly used as sold, with US updates.
When you buy a Rafale for $105m, add $55m of extras =$160m flyaway. If you think 2x F-35 @ 80m = 1 Rafale. That's good.

The F-35 was developed as part of a consortium, so partners get some special additions, but only weapons. With the exception of the Israelis, their situation is very different due to their lack of strategic depth, everybody else gets stock.

India's case with the Rafale is different. It was an emergency purchase. Anyway, $105M includes the extras, the $2B is the R&D component and isn't part of unit costs. A lot of the R&D will also include the work needed to make the jet compatible with the Indian network. It's not like we can just buy and start operating the F-35 either, a lot of money's gonna be needed to make it work in India. But even with all the additions, the per jet cost is just $250M. And half that value is gonna come back in the form of offsets. A second order of 36 would have made the per unit cost $215M as the R&D cost is amortised over twice the number of jets. A deal for 90 would have brought the price down to well below $200M.

Australia bought 58 jets for $11.5B. That's $198M. No customisation, no addition of new weapons, smaller offsets. And the amount isn't even the final amount, which needs the addition of the first tranche as well as R&D costs.
I don't know if you believe that or just making fun.

Which part?
 
So the big twist here is that the F-35 is actually under $18,000 to operate in Norway and not the unsustainable $44,000?

I'll have a coke.

Tusa seems to be referring to different costs from Norway's. I prefer one air force determining costs rather than two different air forces.
 
Australia bought 58 jets for $11.5B. That's $198M. No customisation, no addition of new weapons, smaller offsets. And the amount isn't even the final amount, which needs the addition of the first tranche as well as R&D costs.
What was included with that exactly? Did you actually look or just blurt out what you thought it was?

why aren't you using Poland, or the Swiss or other more recent examples?

The F-35 was developed as part of a consortium, so partners get some special additions, but only weapons. With the exception of the Israelis, their situation is very different due to their lack of strategic depth, everybody else gets stock.
"stock" that they got to have a say in from the start because they were a member of the consortium who made special additions already. Very stupid for F-35 partner nations to not have any say in the development, wait until the aircraft are built, and then make special demands. Since India was not a part of any Rafale Consortium they have had to add them in later. You got it backwards. The F-35 has a Canopy bow to conform with UK standards for bird strike. The Canadian and Norwegian F-35s have equipment that was designed to withstand extreme cold from the start, etc. Thats "stock" in that its built in already, so you don't need some custom job. pretty smart eh?

Tusa seems to be referring to different costs from Norway's. I prefer one air force determining costs rather than two different air forces.
So Norway is settled then?
 
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You omitted that it is GaN radar. The one the Rafale fanboys have been telling us about for years. How the Rafale will be the first.

Typically it is the older jets that end up getting more advanced upgrades first. Like the GaN on the F-15's EPAWSS. The first time the US received an AESA radar was on an F-15 as part of its upgrade. So that's before the F-22.

India's first AESA tech on jets was also a Mig-29, and more recently the AESA radar on the Jaguar came in before the Rafale, which was originally assumed to be our first jet to come with AESA. We are gonna get GaN tech for jammers on our MKIs by next year as well. So this is actually quite normal.

But getting new technologies as an upgrade is different from the modernisation of a platform. An upgrade is generally only an improvement over your existing capabilities, whereas a modernisation brings in whole new capabilties, so the effect is different.
 
So the big twist here is that the F-35 is actually under $18,000 to operate in Norway and not the unsustainable $44,000?

I'll have a coke.
The big twist here is actually of the LM spinning a yarn. The Finnish AF is operating on a tight budget - both in terms of CAP EX & OP EX as also emphasized by a Finnish member here, which means they can't afford miscalculations of the type demonstrated above assuming they can actually afford the F-35 with all it's bells & whistles & whether it actually fulfills it's needs which the Rafales can't .

The same is true of the USAF going ahead at least in as far as it's OP EX goes as the thread explains which is why there are strong rumours of the possibility of a 4.5G ++ single engine FA being developed & deployed by the end of this decade & a curtailment of further F-35 orders.

You can have that coke now .
 
It's not LM, it is the 3 top guys in the Norwegian defence force. The take away is by what they count. it is similar to their F-16
"As described by three people, the Chief of Staff, the Chief of Test Flight, Tactics and Training, and the Chief of Logistics and Maintenance of the F-35 and F-16, the current flight hour costs for the F-35A were reported to be NOK 110.000 per hour, which is currently approximately EUR 11.000, including man-hours, maintenance, spare parts and fuel costs. Since the number is the lowest we had ever heard on the F-35, it naturally amazed us. That’s why I asked how its hourly cost compares to the F-16 still in use. The answer was convergent [among the three]: it is about the same size."
 
I don't know if you believe that or just making fun.

Now the question is whether the F4.2 matches up to or exceeds the F-35's overall capabilities. We already know the Rafale's performance, particularly in A2A, is significantly superior to the F-35, and we know that once the F4.2 comes online, it's going to be a step up over the F-35. With high agility, supercruise and avionics in the future Rafale's favour, the main parameter now is survivability using stealth.

Right here is where he goes full fanboy and logic just goes out the window. They are just as bad as GripenE fanboys it's like these people can't help themselves spouting BS when it comes to these two fighters.

He's soooo sure of himself the french planes performance in A2A is superior even though the Swiss thought otherwise. Also the french planes top speed in clean configuration is the same as a F-18E and that was the F1 version of the french plane a much lighter version. They also love bringing up supercruise and it's only forum fanboys that talk about the french planes supercruise "ability" an ability that was guessed when they tested their F1 french plane and its new M88 engines that got them the top speed of mach 1.8 in clean config. Dassault never mentions supercruise in its sales pitch.

Fanboys like him also tout the french planes HIGH AGILITY as something so special that it is unbeatable in a dog/gunfight when an F-18 with two tanks has no problem gunning it.
f18 vs rafale.jpg

f18 vs rafale 2.jpg


Now watch him say, I never said it was unbeatable in a dog/gunfight, when we all know when he brings up "high agility" when talking about the french plane it's pretty much what he's implying.


french plane fanboys can never hold it together they always bring up SP and high agility when they are losing the argument when it comes to performance of the F-35 vs french plane.
 
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If they stuck with it's what suits our needs and national pride. I can understand that. I don't know why they even bothered to start with this comparison and the F-35? I saw them also do it with the f-22. I was waiting on a comparison with the space shuttle, but they took that out of service.
 
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