Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Unfortunately Europe has not started heading in that direction yet.



Too many cooks in both the programs.



Russia is an emerging economy. In 10-15 years they won't be as dependent on oil.

Well yes, can't be dependent on a dead product. Remains to be seen if they can avoid a dead economy as well.

It reminds me of a Morgan Stanley analyst valuing Ford Motors at 12 $ while valuing their EV business at 12$. Except in this analogy Russia doesn't have EV's.
 
Well yes, can't be dependent on a dead product. Remains to be seen if they can avoid a dead economy as well.

It reminds me of a Morgan Stanley analyst valuing Ford Motors at 12 $ while valuing their EV business at 12$. Except in this analogy Russia doesn't have EV's.

By the time EVs make a dent globally, we're gonna be in the 2040s. That's 20 years for Russia to transition from an emerging market into a developed one. More than enough time for them to become bigger than Germany or as big as Japan.
 
By the time EVs make a dent globally, we're gonna be in the 2040s. That's 20 years for Russia to transition from an emerging market into a developed one. More than enough time for them to become bigger than Germany or as big as Japan.

Don't think so. I think EV's will reach 50% of sales by 2026.

The cost differential between BEV and EV is rapidly dropping. Especially for Tesla. They get close to 50% margin out of their Shanghai factory.
 
Don't think so. I think EV's will reach 50% of sales by 2026.

That's not how it works. Even if EV sales reach 50% by 2026, it doesn't make up for all the ICEs that have already been sold. For oil consumption to reduce, the first step is to sell more EVs, but the next step is to replace older ICEs with EVs, and it's the second step that takes time. In the US, the average life of a car is 12 years. So, statistically speaking, those 50% ICEs sold in 2026 will be replaced only in 2038.

Assuming the US market is 17 million a year, and has been that way for 12 years between 2014 and 2026, then the total number of cars sold would be over 200 million. Assuming 10% of that are EVs, then we can assume there are 180 million ICEs still around that need replacement. Assuming 17 million are sold in 2026, with half of them being EVs, then only 8.5 million EVs replace 8.5 million equivalent ICEs in 2026. Then the number of ICEs only drop down to 172.5 million. So you can imagine how long it's gonna take to replace 172.5 million ICEs even with 100% marketshare for EVs.

And this is for the US and other developed countries. The developing world isn't gonna get that lucky since EV costs are still too high.
 
It's kinda weird, I'm usually used to so much more French trolling in this thread, yet it's oddly gone silent huh.

wonder why
In all probability the French government has declared today & tomorrow a public holiday in honour of the single biggest order for fighter aircrafts in French Aviation History.

The pubs , cafes & bistros there must have happy hour every hour all day today & tomorrow - 24/7. Practically Free vin , foie gras , snails , frog legs ...you name it . It must be just like V Day in Gay Paree.

Anything to add , Paddy ? @BMD
 
It's kinda weird, I'm usually used to so much more French trolling in this thread, yet it's oddly gone silent huh.

wonder why
They're too busy celebrating the sale to Croatia, the repeat order of Egypt, and the massive sale to the Emirates.

Finland doesn't matter. There's no logistical axis France cares about that goes through Finland.
 
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I saw France is going to order 42.
42 was 30 (to complete the 210 total purchase according to the last defense white book) + 12 to replace the 12 x 2nd hand for Greece.
Now you can add 12 more to replace the 2nd hand for Croatia (it's now official) so 30 + 12 + 12 = 54 band new F4 for french air forces.
 
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42 was 30 (to complete the 210 total purchase according to the last defense white book) + 12 to replace the 12 x 2nd hand for Greece.
Now you can add 12 more to replace the 2nd hand for Croatia (it's now official) so 30 + 12 + 12 = 54 band new F4 for french air forces.
Wasn't the AdA supposed to get some 275 Rafales in different variants in addition to the Naval Fighters? Has AdA scaled back it's requirements?
 
They're too busy celebrating the sale to Croatia, the repeat order of Egypt, and the massive sale to the Emirates.

Finland doesn't matter. There's no logistical axis France cares about that goes through Finland.

Indeed, nothing wrong with selling to countries where the F-35 isn't competing. Anyways, it's not like French succeeding is bad or something.

Finland means a lot actually. Rafale has no argument anymore.

Wow, it was almost exactly like the Swiss tender. Cue the people claiming this doesn't mean anything.
 
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Wasn't the AdA supposed to get some 275 Rafales in different variants in addition to the Naval Fighters? Has AdA scaled back it's requirements?
At the very begining, the french armies need was for more than 300 (including 86 "M" variant). It was cut year after year.
It's now reduce to 210 (air force + navy).
But this 210 figure don't include the replacement of now older M2000 D. They will be phased out in 2035 at the latest, and SCAF is for 2040... So it's not impossible that a last order for more than 210 (+ 2 x 12 second hand) will be inked.
 
At the very begining, the french armies need was for more than 300 (including 86 "M" variant). It was cut year after year.
It's now reduce to 210 (air force + navy).
But this 210 figure don't include the replacement of now older M2000 D. They will be phased out in 2035 at the latest, and SCAF is for 2040... So it's not impossible that a last order for more than 210 (+ 2 x 12 second hand) will be inked.
The current order is for 180 on which 152 was delivered. So there is 28 to be delivered on current order plus 12 to replace the Greck ones + 12 to replace the Croat ones that's 52. These 52 will be delivered from January 2023 to September 2027 and will be F4.2 compatible at the begining and directly F4.2 at the end of 2024 until the end in 2027. But the LPM Define that we need 225 Fighter as a minimum. We have about 100 Mirage aircraft that we are in the process of removing, to maintain the 225 we will need to continue the delivery in 2027 so we will need to order before Sept 2024 a new tranche of 30 Aircraft which will be delivered from October 2027 to July 2030, but the last Mirage 2000 will be retired in 2032 so we will need again 15 Rafale begining in september 2030 to January 2032. That's a total of 97 F4.2 or upper standard for France. We certainly will need also some F4.2 Rafale M for our Navy.
 
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Wasn't the AdA supposed to get some 275 Rafales in different variants in addition to the Naval Fighters? Has AdA scaled back it's requirements?
The target has been 225 fighter aircraft across both air force and navy (so 180+45) for over a decade or two.

Finland means a lot actually. Rafale has no argument anymore.
Yeah, Rafale doesn't sell to people who only buy American. Shock, horror. Again, Finland is not strategically important to France. I don't know if you are able to understand geography. Take a map of the world, look for the little tiny dots of French overseas territories, and try to find roads between the mainland and them that would naturally go through Finland. The focus is on the Indo-Pacific region, not Northern Europe.
 
The current order is for 180 on which 152 was delivered. So there is 28 to be delivered on current order plus 12 to replace the Greck ones + 12 to replace the Croat ones that's 52. These 52 will be delivered from January 2023 to September 2027 and will be F4.2 compatible at the begining and directly F4.2 at the end of 2024 until the end in 2027. But the LPM Define that we need 225 Fighter as a minimum. We have about 100 Mirage aircraft that we are in the process of removing, to maintain the 225 we will need to continue the delivery in 2027 so we will need to order before Sept 2024 a new tranche of 30 Aircraft which will be delivered from October 2027 to July 2030, but the last Mirage 2000 will be retired in 2032 so we will need again 15 Rafale begining in september 2030 to January 2032. That's a total of 97 F4.2 or upper standard for France. We certainly will need also some F4.2 Rafale M for our Navy.
Weren't the total number of Mirage 2000s in different variants around 300 for AdA? Considering 1:1 as replacement shouldn't AdA be ordering 300 Rafales or does AdA think 225 + say 20 will do the job?
 
Weren't the total number of Mirage 2000s in different variants around 300 for AdA? Considering 1:1 as replacement shouldn't AdA be ordering 300 Rafales or does AdA think 225 + say 20 will do the job?
For the moment 152 Rafale replace 593 old fighter (Mirage F1, Super Etendard, Crusader, Jaguar, Mirage 2000...) so 225 Rafale will do the Job!
 
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Lol. I said it months ago. Finland was never going for any other aircraft in its tender. Other entries were just formalities, same as Norway's tender.

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Finland doesn't matter. There's no logistical axis France cares about that goes through Finland.

Finland was important for internet brownie points.

Now the only chance left is for leaks from Greek Rafale vs F-35 exercises maybe a decade down the line.
 
Finland was important for internet brownie points.

Now the only chance left is for leaks from Greek Rafale vs F-35 exercises maybe a decade down the line.
There was only one source of the information that the F-35 won, which was picked up by everyone, and that source is a tabloid and is not very serious.
 
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