Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The reason why multistatic radar can detect aircraft with passive stealth is as follows:
Passive stealth means that nothing is sent back as a signal in the direction of the emitting radar. But the energy has to go somewhere. Some of it is absorbed, but most of it is reflected in directions other than the emitter. Since the receiver is not co-located with the emitter, it will receive this reflection, allowing it to take a measurement.
With active stealth, the signal cancellation can be sent back to the emitter, but also to all detected hostile tracks and as the multistatic radar can detect even passively stealthy tracks it protects against reciprocal detection.

 

[screambowl]

One of the purposes of a program like Tragedac is to do tests to check that it works. The reason it works is that the signal does not go from - infinity to + infinity but exists for a very short time.

So what kind of intra flight data link this program uses to receive and transmit the data, it is still using Link 16, because it requires much higher speeds if it has to perform it's function with optimum speed.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

So what kind of intra flight data link this program uses to receive and transmit the data, it is still using Link 16, because it requires much higher speeds if it has to perform it's function with optimum speed.

No for that there is a new data link with F4.1 and F4.2 with more air rate and better latency. With link 16, tracks are transmitted, whereas here measurements must be transmitted to produce tracks.

 

[Lolwa]

Yeah, if we ever go for the F-35A, it's gonna have to be on the AETP. Need the performance boost and the 30% additional range versus the J-20C.

Even 36 will help, forget 72. And we will need the F-35I rather than the F-35A. The Israelis were showing off their jet to our air chief only a few months ago.

The aircraft in the picture is the Israel-specific prototype.

But, more realistically, I see the IAF buying the Su-57 instead, due to our need for a lot of customisation, and the role it's been designed for. Rather the IN may eventually give up the MRCBF in favour of a GTG for the F-35C. The Rafale doesn't fit on our carriers and the SH is too old to fight China, resulting in a single-vendor situation. I doubt Dassault has a realistic solution.

F-35B's are the only one that could be exported to us. Since the Navy will get it without interacting with the s-400. Our future LHD's and AC could use it and could exploit the stobar of the vikramaditya.

 

[zinswinsin]

Do Indians really want the SU-57 which as stated by Russia lol.

By late 2024, the military will reportedly receive 22 additional Su-57s to bolster its arsenal. The number is expected to grow to 76 by 2028. Clearly an expensive bird.

By 2028, F-35 will be close to 1000. Not 76 lol.

 

[randomradio]

F-35B's are the only one that could be exported to us. Since the Navy will get it without interacting with the s-400. Our future LHD's and AC could use it and could exploit the stobar of the vikramaditya.

While operating F-35Bs from LHDs is the potential future for the navy, it's not gonna happen until the mid to late 2030s since we lack the LHDs. Otoh, the F-35C requirement is for now. If the Rafale fails to operate from our carriers and the SH is the only option, then it's obviously not the best option.

F-35B also cannot be used from our carriers. As of now, only the SH and F-35C are options because their wings fold.

 

[randomradio]

Do Indians really want the SU-57 which as stated by Russia lol.

The IAF is obviously going to test it.

There's also a pretty good chance they won't go for any imported jet after MRFA, since that's what the IAF has actually announced.

IAF Chief strongly backs indigenous 5th generation jet, says no plan to import

Last year, the IAF issued the initial tender known as the Request for Information to global aircraft companies to produce the jets in India along with an Indian firm.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

So it's all guesswork right now.

By late 2024, the military will reportedly receive 22 additional Su-57s to bolster its arsenal. The number is expected to grow to 76 by 2028. Clearly an expensive bird.

By 2028, F-35 will be close to 1000. Not 76 lol.

The Russians have ordered the Su-57 for $36M flyaway, it's not expensive. In fact, at 170 billion rubles for all 76, at today's exchange rate, it's $28M per jet. And it's been made to use the production infra of the Flanker. The same facilities that are making the Su-35 and Su-30 today are/will make the Su-57. So the Russians are not playing by the same rules as the Americans.

This is a real threat to the F-35.

How many F-35s does the Air Force need?

A new tactical aircraft study underway could make certain what has until now been a suspicion: The U.S. Air Force is unlikely to purchase all of the 1,763 F-35A jets in its program of record.

www.defensenews.com

Internal documents by the Air Force’s future war-fighting cell indicated a plan to curb orders at 1,050 jets, Aviation Week reported in December. Will Roper, the Air Force’s acquisition executive during the Trump administration, called for F-35 purchases to be capped at about 800 units, CNN reported in May.

 

[randomradio]

No for that there is a new data link with F4.1 and F4.2 with more air rate and better latency. With link 16, tracks are transmitted, whereas here measurements must be transmitted to produce tracks.

That's the problem Rafale faces. All the cool stuff we have been hearing about, INCAS, TRAGEDAC, DEDIRA, CARAA, MELBA, MFA etc, are all meant for late 2020s introduction, and by the time these come in with trained pilots and in enough numbers, we are talking 2030. And worst case, some of this stuff can even get pushed to future versions beyond 4.2, like MFA. Without MFA, the Rafale F4.2 will just be a regular 4.5th gen jet comparable to the modernised Typhoon and Gripen E. A mere GaN upgrade won't be enough to make it comparable to AMCA Mk1.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That's the problem Rafale faces. All the cool stuff we have been hearing about, INCAS, TRAGEDAC, DEDIRA, CARAA, MELBA, MFA etc, are all meant for late 2020s introduction, and by the time these come in with trained pilots and in enough numbers, we are talking 2030. And worst case, some of this stuff can even get pushed to future versions beyond 4.2, like MFA. Without MFA, the Rafale F4.2 will just be a regular 4.5th gen jet comparable to the modernised Typhoon and Gripen E. A mere GaN upgrade won't be enough to make it comparable to AMCA Mk1.

I think you are confusing Indian time with Dassault time.

 

[randomradio]

F-35A is HX – The Winner Takes It All

Back in 2017 I was fortunate enough to travel to RAF Lossiemouth together with a bunch of Finnish media courtesy of BAE Systems to get up and close with the Eurofighter Typhoon group operating ther…

corporalfrisk.com

 

[randomradio]

I think you are confusing Indian time with Dassault time.

We are talking about Dassault time. By the time F4.2 enters service, it will be 2026-27, by the time even 1 squadron is established it will be about 2028. Pilots need 2-3 years experience on all the new hardware, by which time about 30-40 jets will be operational. That's a minimum of 2030.

Regardless, the MFA is the most important upgrade, the only way for the Rafale to stand out in the West. Without it, it will just be a contemporary 4.5th gen jet of the time. MFA even a few years down the line will be useless because Tempest, FCAS, NGAD etc will be out and will have made the Rafale outdated.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We are talking about Dassault time. By the time F4.2 enters service, it will be 2026-27, by the time even 1 squadron is established it will be about 2028. Pilots need 2-3 years experience on all the new hardware, by which time about 30-40 jets will be operational. That's a minimum of 2030.

Regardless, the MFA is the most important upgrade, the only way for the Rafale to stand out in the West. Without it, it will just be a contemporary 4.5th gen jet of the time. MFA even a few years down the line will be useless because Tempest, FCAS, NGAD etc will be out and will have made the Rafale outdated.

Why do you say:
"By the time F4.2 enters service, it will be 2026-27"..... when it is officially 2024 ? And we will deliver first compatible F4.2 Rafale in January 2023 so at the end of 2024 we will have several F4.1 Rafale squadrons and one F4.2 squadron. Pilote expérience will begin with F4.1 in 2023....
That's the difference between Dassault time and Indian time.

 

[randomradio]

Why do you say:
"By the time F4.2 enters service, it will be 2026-27"..... when it is officially 2024 ? And we will deliver first compatible F4.2 Rafale in January 2023 so at the end of 2024 we will have several F4.1 Rafale squadrons and one F4.2 squadron. Pilote expérience will begin with F4.1 in 2023....
That's the difference between Dassault time and Indian time.

That's unrealistic for obvious reasons. You need jets before you begin training, and that's only jets that enter operational service.

Your official delivery date for F4.2 is 2027. That's when your operational pilots get the jet in hand. Nobody magically becomes an expert on their first day. At best you can claim 2026 with the second-hand replacements. Your pilots will still need 1.5-2 years minimum, ie around 300-500 hours of experience.

With 1 full squadron delivered by 2028, ie, 18 jets, and if you have 1.5 pilots per squadron, then by the time you have 18+9 pilots trained, it's gonna be 2030.

And no, just because your "test pilots" begin flying in 2023 doesn't mean your "operational pilots" will magically get the experience transferred into their minds and muscles overnight. All the operational pilots will need 300-500 hours of flight time in F4.2, that's 8100 to 13500 hours cumulatively. Those two Rafale F4.2 prototypes your TPs are gonna fly won't give you that many hours for training 27 operational pilots, never mind the fact that the prototypes are needed for development.

18x240 = 4320 hours. 13500 hours for 18 jets is 3.125 years of flying time. Even 18 pilots with 500 hours is 9000 hours or 2 years of flying time for 18 jets.

Unless the Rafale becomes completely unmanned, you can't escape the reality of pilot training. Even the best Dassault time for the fleet is 2030 for the first squadron alone, just 18 pilots. There's a huge difference between having 18 jets delivered, and having those 18 jets become war-ready.

If you are not happy with the math above, then I'd recommend calculating on your own the delivery of your first squadron to the AAE to full operational strength and getting 500 hours each for 18-27 pilots for that squadron.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That's unrealistic for obvious reasons. You need jets before you begin training, and that's only jets that enter operational service.

This is not completely true, you can start the training on a simulator and then you can speed up the training. Moreover you seem to consider that only F4.2 counts, but F4.1 is very similar to F4.2, only the performances will be different, but the functionalities will be the same, in particular everything concerning the new connectivity will be present on F4.1, which will allow to start the training earlier.

Your official delivery date for F4.2 is 2027. That's when your operational pilots get the jet in hand.

No, F4.1 is being tested, it will be delivered to the Air Force in 2023, it will go to the CEAM for one year so that the latter can write the operating instructions for the F4 version, In 2024 F4.2 will be delivered to the Air Force, it will go to the CEAM so that the latter can measure the performances.
In 2023 F4.2 compatible Rafales will be produced for France, they will be equipped with F4.1 and will be used with the F3R instruction manual, they will be upgraded to F4.2 in 2024 by adding equipment and updating the software and will then be used according to the F4 instruction manual developed in 2023 by the CEAM. Minor supplements to the operating instructions are possible in 2024 if the performance is better than expected, which is often the case.

First Rafale delivery to India was in September 2019, and you already have two squadrons operational....

 

[randomradio]

This is not completely true, you can start the training on a simulator and then you can speed up the training. Moreover you seem to consider that only F4.2 counts, but F4.1 is very similar to F4.2, only the performances will be different, but the functionalities will be the same, in particular everything concerning the new connectivity will be present on F4.1, which will allow to start the training earlier.

That only gives you video game experts. Commanders will have the expectation that pilots have a minimum number of flying hours completed along with operational exercises before they are certified to be combat ready. Typically, that's at least 2-3 years of flying time.

No, F4.1 is being tested, it will be delivered to the Air Force in 2023, it will go to the CEAM for one year so that the latter can write the operating instructions for the F4 version, In 2024 F4.2 will be delivered to the Air Force, it will go to the CEAM so that the latter can measure the performances.
In 2023 F4.2 compatible Rafales will be produced for France, they will be equipped with F4.1 and will be used with the F3R instruction manual, they will be upgraded to F4.2 in 2024 by adding equipment and updating the software and will then be used according to the F4 instruction manual developed in 2023 by the CEAM. Minor supplements to the operating instructions are possible in 2024 if the performance is better than expected, which is often the case.

Yeah, you can have 2-4 jets delivered to the air force in the F4.2 standards, but that's not considered a squadron or a fully operational jet. This is basically a pre-operational stage. It's still a long time away from being used in combat.

Regardless of how quickly those initial jets are delivered, a squadron is only going to be delivered by 2028, and by the time enough pilots are fully trained and exercised, it's gonna be 2030.

First Rafale delivery to India was in September 2019, and you already have two squadrons operational....

That does not necessarily mean both squadrons are fully combat capable even today. There should be many pilots who have flown the Rafale for only 50-100 hours, some could be even less. Some may not even have completed training on the Rafales.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2007/RAND_MG597.pdf

This stress is imposed, to some extent, by the RDTM definition of an experienced pilot as one with at least 500 hours in the primary mission aircraft.

The experts in the F-15C units agreed that the optimal number of live sorties per month was about 14 (see p. 50). These experts also agreed that the optimal number of MTC sorties per month was about five. So the experts agreed that a total of about 19 training profiles (including live sorties and simulator missions) per month was optimal and that about xvi Absorbing and Developing Qualified Fighter Pilots 26 percent of these sorties should be large force employment exercises flown in the MTC

If you recall, I used to say that we will be capable of effectively fighting with the Rafale by mid 2023. This much time is necessary to get all our pilots to 300-500 hours, with the most experienced ones having crossed 800 hours by then using normal flying time. We may require up to 2024 to get all pilots to the minimum threshold of 500 hours to be considered "experienced". And this is separate from simulator experience.

It's going to take us many more years to get instructor level experts for the Rafale. At least 6.25 years for the Rafale after they are assigned to operational units to get to 1500 hours. That's 2025. Of course, they can easily fly 300-350 hours per year to get up to speed. So it's possible by 2023 for us to have a mix of expert, experienced and rookie pilots and have the aircraft become combat-ready.

So, given the already experienced pilots of the AAE, I gave a pretty modest 500-hour expectation from a pilot to get used to the "primary mission aircraft", ie, the F4.2. That's 3 years after operations begin.

 

[Herciv]

Need the performance boost and the 30% additional range versus the J-20C.

No this figure have been misunderstood. The AETP bring perhaps a 30% inscrease in performance. But all this increase won't be available after the integration. Firstly because no one know the weight of the new engine compare to F-135, secondly with a new engines that was not sheduled, it is perhaps a good idea to take a margin with an increase in the weight of the whole f-35.
Then the air intake geometry will change to take into account not only one flux but three. If you don't all the increase you have during lab test will be lost.

 

[Herciv]

No for that there is a new data link with F4.1 and F4.2 with more air rate and better latency. With link 16, tracks are transmitted, whereas here measurements must be transmitted to produce tracks.

I think this is very related to multistatic detection then :

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That only gives you video game experts. Commanders will have the expectation that pilots have a minimum number of flying hours completed along with operational exercises before they are certified to be combat ready. Typically, that's at least 2-3 years of flying time.

No, if your pilot is already experienced, it is very useful to go on a good simulator to learn the new controls, then the familiarization on a Rafale is very fast:

I did not have time for any simulator, avionics bench or groundschool training. I received a 1.5h cockpit familiarisation on the ground in a Rafale at Dassault's Istres facility on the day before the evaluation. Other than this, I would fly the complete evaluation myself from the front cockpit. The ease and success with which I could fly and cope with such a massively capable fighter would be a clear indication of the Rafale's "fight and forget" design concept.

FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

Flight International test pilot Peter Collins is the first Briton to fly Dassault's F3-standard Rafale. Read his exclusive evaluation of the 'omnirole' type ...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yeah, you can have 2-4 jets delivered to the air force in the F4.2 standards, but that's not considered a squadron or a fully operational jet. This is basically a pre-operational stage. It's still a long time away from being used in combat.

Regardless of how quickly those initial jets are delivered, a squadron is only going to be delivered by 2028, and by the time enough pilots are fully trained and exercised, it's gonna be 2030.

Delivery: 11 Rafale by year in 2023, 2024 and 2025.
For example F3R was not yet delivered when you ordered Rafales, it was delivered in November 2018 and it took 28 months for it to be fully operational in March 2021 in the French Air Force, i.e. to be able to perform regular war missions with it.
This did not prevent you from being delivered in 2019 with an Indian version derived from F3R and which will be completed in early 2022, and your pilots are not waiting for the version to be complete to train on your aircraft.
So, we will be able to conduct regular war missions with F4.2, 28 months after the delivery of F4.1, i.e. around the beginning of 2026.

 

[Herciv]

And if you put the multistatic technologuy described above in satellites, like very small ones (Technology - UNSEENLABS) and tilba. This gives an anti passive stealth network ... all around the earth...
This is Keraunos : Keraunos Project : Unseenlabs, selected by the French Ministry of the Armed Forces - UNSEENLABS