The panel looks like glass though. Else even the other RF antennas around it would be behind black.
What would you think the function would be if it's RF?
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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The panel looks like glass though. Else even the other RF antennas around it would be behind black.
What would you think the function would be if it's RF?
Funnily enough, while the Typhoon and Gripen have internal MAWS, their RF EW/EA capability is largely external.
The wingtip pod can also accept a missile.
Interestingly, Gripen comes with MAWS-300, UV. And the IR PAWS-2 is the definitive version, but can be replaced based on customer requirements.
The Typhoon's full RF EW suite is on the wingtips.View attachment 23085
So, you can see that even these guys have found it difficult to find internal solutions even for ESM. It ain't a simple problem.
External modifications typically come at the cost of additional drag, airframe integrity and internal estate complexity. But with wingtips, it helps reduce trim drag on delta canards, external attachments or holes do not compromise the airframe and the internal estate is simpler, probably only requires wiring for data and power. Even internal modifications, which include cutting holes, come at the cost of flight performance.
The IAF performed a 3-year study with CEMILAC before deciding the first DCMAWS solution wasn't suitable for the airframe. The second DCMAWS solution was more workable, with 2 underwing pylons and 2 up and down sensors. But Sukhoi rejected it 'cause they were pushing for MILDS-A in pretty much the same configuration.
The 12 new MKIs should give us the final answer.
Engineering is a tough thing but the only way forward is a solution or work-around otherwise the entire country will suffer. So better a 4th gen jet should suffer acceptable penalty in drag, airframe, etc which can be compensated by engine tech & other advances. This is exactly how a generation gap is created.
5th gen made it compulsary having RF & EO sensors in an embedded, stealthy, aerodynamic way. When i used to see F-22 documentaries also showcasing its competitor YF-23 on Discovery channel in 1990s, it was such a radical & subtle thing to experience that 4th gen jets used to feel too damn obsolete, i simply stopped seeing them.
So the 4th gen designers panicked & improvement to counter 5th gen came later in 2000s as 4++ gen iterations. But it depends on intelligene of designers & business terms if exporting that how the jet will be modified. Hence the OEMs like Russia, Sweden, EU can play with their jet configurations but not the importing countries.
Grippen, Rafale, EF-2000, M2K, Jaguar, F-16, F-18, etc, these are small to medium sized jets. They have limited size & most with only 1 rudder. So either they could fuse an entire set/pod on rudder or wingtip, or a pylon type attachment, or miniaturise some internal components to create space for electronics part of sensors so that just the sensors can be just attached outside or aerodynamically fused. Just like our cellphone today is much morepowerful & compact than a PC just 10 years back.
So Swedish engineers in Grippen have managed to do good miniaturization of some internal components & make other add-ons aerodynamic.
And in the NG version it is integrated in the wing root eliminating the small drag it caused when at canard root.
So this is how engineers have to think of miniaturizations & innovations. If a small jet can do it then the bigget jet fighter shouldn't have a problem with airframe integrity, etc. But MKI seems to have toooooooo much problems, from Russia also, from HAL/NAL/ADA/DRDO also.
God bless MKI
Black doesn't mean glass. There cannot be a generalization that every RF antenna has to be painted same way. Only Russians can answer this painting scheme.
It is in fact RF antenna whose function i already told through diagram. Such X/L/UHF/VHF-band antenna are there in F-35 & F-22 also on dorsal & ventral sides.
Engineering is a tough thing but the only way forward is a solution or work-around otherwise the entire country will suffer. So better a 4th gen jet should suffer acceptable penalty in drag, airframe, etc which can be compensated by engine tech & other advances. This is exactly how a generation gap is created.
5th gen made it compulsary having RF & EO sensors in an embedded, stealthy, aerodynamic way. When i used to see F-22 documentaries also showcasing its competitor YF-23 on Discovery channel in 1990s, it was such a radical & subtle thing to experience that 4th gen jets used to feel too damn obsolete, i simply stopped seeing them.
So the 4th gen designers panicked & improvement to counter 5th gen came later in 2000s as 4++ gen iterations. But it depends on intelligene of designers & business terms if exporting that how the jet will be modified. Hence the OEMs like Russia, Sweden, EU can play with their jet configurations but not the importing countries.
Grippen, Rafale, EF-2000, M2K, Jaguar, F-16, F-18, etc, these are small to medium sized jets. They have limited size & most with only 1 rudder. So either they could fuse an entire set/pod on rudder or wingtip, or a pylon type attachment, or miniaturise some internal components to create space for electronics part of sensors so that just the sensors can be just attached outside or aerodynamically fused. Just like our cellphone today is much morepowerful & compact than a PC just 10 years back.
So Swedish engineers in Grippen have managed to do good miniaturization of some internal components & make other add-ons aerodynamic.
View attachment 23089
View attachment 23091
View attachment 23093
View attachment 23094
And in the NG version it is integrated in the wing root eliminating the small drag it caused when at canard root.
View attachment 23092
So this is how engineers have to think of miniaturizations & innovations. If a small jet can do it then the bigget jet fighter shouldn't have a problem with airframe integrity, etc. But MKI seems to have toooooooo much problems, from Russia also, from HAL/NAL/ADA/DRDO also.
It has nothing to do with size of the airframe, it has everything to do with the design of the airframe. It's about how much space you create from the ground up. The space must first be created on paper and then you need to execute it when built. But with airframes that have already been built, the internal space wouldn't be available, or will come with a severe penalty.
It's the same reason why no matter how much they upgrade the F-22, it will never carry as much electronics as its smaller cousin, the F-35. But at the same time, the F-35 cannot carry cheek arrays because the F-22 has been designed for it, the F-35 has not. It's pretty much the same reason why the Typhoon Tranche 1 cannot carry AESA, but we can do it on LCA Mk1A.
It's why we have terms like "fitted for but not with". Which means, the airframe has been designed for future advancements, but right now they have decided to not use that space. Like the French have skipped out on IRST even though they have made space for it.
Gripen E was built from the ground up to carry MAWS, whereas the Flanker was not. Therein lies the difference. The Flanker design is so old that unfortunately many other electronics cannot fit inside it without radical redesign, but not possible on existing airframe. Which is why the Su-35 was developed.
All other bigger but older planes face the same issue. The LCA Mk2 will be able to carry more electronics and have greater performance than much bigger jets like the F-16 and Mig-29. It's all because of design.
Doesn't make sense to lose out on standardisation of radomes. To me it looks exactly like the black housing of the IR detectors.
Can you speculate on what its purpose is?
You can ask the Russians on painting scheme when u get opportunity. The IR detector MAWS are already there just behind DIRCM. Are u not paying attention to the pics & diagram? 101KS-U/02 & even 2 additional optical sensors 101KS-P on SWB tip.
U r really not paying attention & asking same question again, i hope u r in good health.
U hav strongly vouched for Su-57 to be best fighter so others should be asking queries to you & you should be confirmed on everything.
I already mentioned purpose as 101-KS-N (Nazyemnaya) or Ground navigation & targeting system (not the pod by same designation), meaning down looking L/X/UHF/VHF-band antenna which can be used for terrain mapping & targetting. Also for comunication with ground assets. West terms such antennas as CNI antennas (Communication, Navigation, Idenfication).
Sorry for the emoticon.
Pls be gentle. He juggles close to half a dozen discussion forums such as this with the result he often forgets a particular story he may have narrated in a given forum.
So size/volume/dimension is 1 of the aspects of design. U should know that internal space is freed when with time electronics become advance & smaller & many analog components become digital, many tasks are offloaded from dedicated H/w to multi-purpose H/w or S/w. If other Sukhois are finding solutions but not MKI then either MKI is a dead end blunder or our DoD engineers don't know proper miniaturization & compaction when civilian gadgets are getting smaller & stronger.
A jet must evolve with time or get shot down, simple.
Electronics of 2 jets are not directly compared in terms of space & quantity bcoz some components could be generic some could be customized. Hence F-22 & F-35 cannot be compared exactly inch by inch especially when of different role & weight category. But bcoz both are 5th gen so both satisfy some minimum needs like RF & IR stealth, MAWS, EW, sensor fusion, networking, etc.
Similarly to match today's tech advancement the 4th gen must evolve to 4++ or die w/o knowing who shot them down from where.
Tranche-1 is 1st iteration & MK1A is 2nd iteration of MK1. Tranche-1 were produced b/w 1998 & 2008 & we don't even know when MK1A will fly, what are u comparing?
And now Tranche-4 is on the way, do we have LCA MK4 or MK1A4?
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Well, i didn't tell him to try to manage dozen forums. Nor i'm not responsible for others' memory lapses, dementia, etc.
Sorry for the emoticon.
Pls be gentle. He juggles close to half a dozen discussion forums such as this with the result he often forgets a particular story he may have narrated in a given forum.
In my office i deal with dozens of people from freshers to seniors, but my professional concepts & task/team management is thorough.
You've got it wrong though.
I don't think you understand what L/X/UHF/VHF-band antenna for targeting means, which is why I didn't buy your argument. It's not suitable for the purpose. Especially when there are much bigger radars available for targeting, the N036 complex, which is one of the main purposes of this complex. The minute you brought in UHF and VHF, you killed your own argument, just blindly dropping a bomb WW2 style will be more accurate. In fact an area that small is only suitable for mmw. And for ground navigation there are other emitters, not the one we are talking about. There are two radar altimeters along with 1 datalink, 1 IFF and 1 unknown emitter.
The 101KS designation is not meant for RF systems either. So the clue is already there in the name.
The pod version is for special missions, it's a recce pod like Reccelite, but also comes with the ability to target.
So the black panel is most definitely an IR sensor meant solely for detection and targeting. Occam's razor, it looks like one and has the same designation as one. Most likely a combined SVP-24 Gefest and EOTS. That unknown emitter could very well be a datalink for this sensor to connect with ground troops with a ROVER type capability, but that's just speculation at this time, 'cause there are other ways to do it too.
In any case, I tried having a productive discussion with you, but it seems you are too immature for it. You call yourself an engineer but you do not have even common sense knowledge about anything outside your field. You've learnt some blanket terms like CNI without even realising how vast that term really is. You are just blurting out random stuff while throwing around jargon meant to confuse the average reader. And most of the time you're just stating the obvious. You think that small panel can potentially carry a VHF antenna, which is as much as 1-2.5 meters long, which demonstrates the extent of your knowledge in RF at least. I baited you in some areas, and your answers were well within range of what I predicted. I don't think we can have a constructive discussion anytime soon. Anyway, it was still fun. So cheerio.
Silly Ignorants, this is the only forum I am active on. I don't do social media or other forums. I don't have as much time to kill as you do.
French skipped out IRST? Correction - The OSF (long-range optoelectronics system) will add IRST for detecting and identifying airborne stealth targets at long range (F4.1). So OSF was already long range EO sensor but now it is upgraded for stealth jets with reduced IR signature.
It allows target tracking, through IR and visual sensors:
- on the left, the main IR detector can be used as FLIR (to send a video signal to the pilot), or to detect:
- air targets at ranges up to 100 kilometers
- surface or sea targets at up to 6 kilometers
- on the right a TV/IR sensor for target identification (40 km range) including LRF
- passive long-distance detection
- target identification before engagement
U r using the wrong designations & models to compare.
Gripen E is among latest, after it is NG version. U r comparing to which version of Flanker (NATO designation)?
How much dimension & volume difference is there in Su-27 & Su-35?
If u r comparing Su-27 to Su-35 & hence calling it as radical redesign then Chinese will call their MKK to J-1X also as radical & so will HAL bcoz MKI is unique recombination of multi-national electronics & avionics.
We don't use 1980s electronics at home or in the military
We are talking about just a small MAWS system & u sound like hopeless & impossible.
It is not about MORE electronics but type of electronics & compaction done which is also aspect of design.
Oh silly me ! @not part of half a dozen forums . I was under the impression storyteller was gracing ORF & Lowy with his esteemed presence.
Sad to learn they're deprived of his unmatched wisdom & knowledge & glad to know we're the sole audience for all his stories. Perhaps word's spread far & wide . Would be difficult to survive anywhere else selling stories .
How very fortunate we are to have his undivided attention !!
Sad to learn they're deprived of his unmatched wisdom & knowledge & glad to know we're the sole audience for all his stories. Perhaps word's spread far & wide . Would be difficult to survive anywhere else selling stories .
How very fortunate we are to have his undivided attention !!
Well, i'm computer engineer in a civillian private MNC, not electronics engineer in DoD. So I'm not telling u to BUY my ARGUEMENT. I'm DISCUSSING.
5th gen jet requires Sensor fusion & spherical coverage. The main forward radar only has a conical coverage. It cannot look say 90 degree up/down/left/right.
1st time i mentioned L/X-band only for targeting & navigation or SAR ground mapping.
Later i added UHF/VHF not for targeting but in a comprehensive way to denote MULTIPLE antennas on F-22 & F-35. U r cherry-picking words & parts of sentences being opportunist to be "contrarian" in ur own words. That's very combative hence uncultured behavior.
So i'm not specializing on radars but u think i am not aware of the EM spectrum, wavelengths?
when i only mentioned to youbut an electronics engineering grad will know these specific things much better, it is a different university branch & degree.
MILLIMETER band is below W band.
F-22 has IFDL, L-band, GPS antennas on top & UHF antennas are at wing root so they can look up & down.
On the bottom F-22 has MLS, L-Band CNI, etc
F-35 also has L-Band, C-band altimeter & UHF at bottom. On top it has UHF, GPS, L-Band.
And just like F-22 has IFDL, F-35 has MADL antennas
And then seem to operate in K band
Hence looking at size of all these types of antennas we see that a small antenna around size of human face or less, can also be K or even C or L band which are much above the MMW band.
So as explained above with pics, I never meant UHF/VHF for targetting, i used it w.r.t. multiple types of antennas.
Honestly i am not 100% confirmed on this. And websites & documentaries are also not clear on this. If u r 100% confirmed then very good, perhaps u can share the website, diagram, etc which tells it. F-22 & F-35 have L-band antenna looking up & down, hence any person in place would assume or conclude the same for Su-57 as i did.
You typed "most likely" so u r also not 100% confirmed. I'm aware of an EO sight on belly of Tu-22M & something similar in nose of MiG-27 & belly of Su-34. I'm also aware of DLIR on F-117. Among all these the F-117 DLIR is most stealthy. The SVP-24 Gefest improves accuracy of free-fall bombs by Constantly Computing Impact Point (CCIP) & auto-release the bombs but this feature is already there in all ground attack capable jets without SVP-24 like system. The CCIP data is generated by combination of speed, altitude, orientation data from radar, altimeter, INS, GPS, etc.
But implementing such thing in today's 5th gen fighter is not very convincing. The chin of Su-57 is flat so FoV would be quite narrow while the FoV of F-35's EOTS is hemispherical, advantage is that if suddenly F-35 has to maneover while tracking/targeting then also it can maintain a lock while in a higher off-target angle. So J-20 didn't implement it, AMCA won't do it
1st of all u couldn't even introduce urself even till now & ultimately accepted that u like being "contrarian" & combative,
so please leave "maturity" out of the equation.
In F2F talks u will b kicked out.Outside my field
yeah in engineering colleges, 1st yr is common then rest 3 years are specialized. So CNI comes into "electronics& telecommunication" branch who also have semester subject on radars & atennas which Computer/IT branch doesn't have 
So a CT/IT grad engineer woudn't know expert relation between wavelength/frequency & dimensions of antenna/radar. Hence i told u earlier that i do know very superficially that diff. wavelength/freq. require diff. antenna design & shape BUT an electronics engineering student/engineer knows it specifically.Already repeated so many times that this is a time-pass unofficial forum, not online tution classes or military/aviation newspaper
so why should i be worried about average reader? We will never ever meet eachother. BTW i'm myself such an average guyI'm an average ordinary citizen, IT engineer but not big hotshot, here for some time-pass, not to write thesis, seek approval & have PhD.
I'm new member, he is old member, hence the ego perhaps, can't even introduce himself & calls others illogical, concluding, claiming, etc.
Dear god pls hav mercy on all
Boy/Man (i don't know ur age group but u appear like typical 20s guy) U r only publicly accpeting to BAIT/ambush others by pretending or misleading, to be "CONTRARIAN", insult others, then label others as Illogical/Concluding/Claiming
In future if ever u wanna discuss F2F or online with anybody, please don't do all this circus or U will be kicked out of arena. 
U might hav thought i might be some coed, but Trust me, the pleasure was all mine
I'm simple, honest, average guy 
so please leave "maturity" out of the equation.
Having a contrarian opinion is actually called "debate", typically extempore like the case here, where no preparation has been done. It's when two people are given a topic and make points for or against the topic. It has nothing to do with whether you actually have a bias towards one. That's how professionals deal with it. Nothing to do with being mature or not. You don't have to worry about my F2F delivery, I will be fine. You are just dealing with this way too emotionally. This "debate" is not going anywhere.
Outside my field
Yes, electronics has a semester dealing with every subject in the field. Some going into 2 or 3 semesters, like semiconductors. Although there's one semester dealing with antennas, some foundational subjects are added across most of the 6 semesters.
In any case, to have the discussion we are having, Wiki knowledge is enough. Nobody here is expecting anyone to be extraordinary, except Ignorants.
Anyway, it was fun. Cheers.
Words matter a lot. Debate certainly means contradiction but U don't have to pretend & bait or trap others or insult others.
A team of scientists, engineers, managers, etc also debate during product R&D but in formal way.
This is not like school assembly where students are suddenly invited by principal to talk for 2mins on a topic with no preparation to gauge knowledge & preparedness of students. There also the speaking student are very polite & cautious.
College students in 3rd/4th year take tution classes for Group Discussion & Personal Interview to crack campus selection. MBA teaches formal communication. There are personality dev. seminars.
Even in a parliament, some of those ministers are not supposed to shout like animals.
And diff. people have diff. emotional or sensitivity levels. U don't wanna b on the recieving end, do u? Everywhere in society we hav to b formal & polite. We cannot be like Dabang Salman Khan or Tiger Shroff's Heropanti, Singham, Bahubali, etc
About this debate, it started with F-22 pylon-pod then it jumped to MKI's MAWS problem to Su57's EO sensors. What worse will happen - my understanding about 101KS-N will be wrong, that's all, no issues. But currently no website or documentary is giving clear confirmed info.
And a tax paying citizen have full right to raise concern if national assets are not developed/upgraded on time or if there is corruption in management like Bofors scandal, Rafale scam, 2G scam, Satyam scam, etc which clearly show that engineers, managers, politicians, anybody can be corrupted or inefficient.
When we Indians are proud of our global CEOs & international diaspora then we should look towards solutions rather than justifying - this is not possible, that is not possible.
It depends on syllabus of university, autonomous colleges & revision of syllabus. I was in college in early 2000s. We learned basics of semiconductors, logic gates, K-map, wireless transmission basics, etc but not about design, shape, etc in detail. may be today's syllabus is upgraded.
I never like maths
hence i'm a SAN (Storage Area Network) engineer who deal with DataCenter.Depends on individual knowledge over years or even decades but as non-DoD common citizens we are here to share that knowledge, increase awareness & for time-pass basically.
Congratulations on winning the debate.AAACHOOO!That's how F-22 starts. It actually sounds like a mechanical sneeze.
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Apparently anyone with Wikipedia level knowledge is an expert here. I hope you realize what this means. All those years you've spent viewing all those documentaries, collating information from various sources offline & online plus pictures & exchanging views on various fora with random strangers & friends were futile. Whereas all you had to do was refer to Wikipedia.
The things one learns on StratFront. I guess the only takeaway here is the tacit admission that everyone here is an amateur expert. What a climb down!!
1) U replied to wrong postCongratulations on winning the debate.
Apparently anyone with Wikipedia level knowledge is an expert here. I hope you realize what this means. All those years you've spent viewing all those documentaries, collating information from various sources offline & online plus pictures & exchanging views on various fora with random strangers & friends were futile. Whereas all you had to do was refer to Wikipedia.
The things one learns on StratFront. I guess the only takeaway here is the tacit admission that everyone here is an amateur expert. What a climb down!!
2) it is not about winning, losing but just talking whatever we know & think.
3) I wanna thank u wherever u liked my posts & replies.
4) Experts don't come to unofficial time pass forums like this. They are very busy with their professional friend circle. If they are part of Dod then they are sweared under secrecy.
If they are private think-tank they are busy in journalism. consulting, etc.
5) All those years since 1990s i spent were only for me & my hobby or time-pass. There is no intention of profit, name, fame, etc.
Hence there is no question of futile or fruitful. If i will post DoD tech stuff on my actual personal FB, Insta, Twitter accounts then it will simply bounce off the heads of my friends, relatives, neighbors, colleagues, etc bcoz most common citizens don't take deep intrest in Defence, aviation, etc, not even the civil tech guys. try it with ur friends, relatives, etc & see their short & long term reactions 
6) Wikipedia is just 1 website. Search engines take to pages after pages of results including but not limited to Wikipedia, YouTube, Quora, StackExchnage, Reddit, private sites, etc, etc. Wiki doesn't provide all photos, videos, etc. It is not a 1-stop site.
7) The takeaway here is most usual people discuss about current affairs, politics, tourism, food, movies, cars, bikes, etc, Other very few like us prefer to talk on defence, aviation, heavy vehicles, etc. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. We all are amateurs, enthusiasts. If we were too serious then we would have joined DoD or persued degree in geipolitics, strategic affairs & become defence journalists or thinktankers.
I see you're a very modest person. What also comes across clearly apart from your tremendous knowledge which you wear lightly , is the fact that you're also a very calm composed person given to rational debates without getting emotional about it . But most of all you're an extremely staight forward person arguing with a person as straight as a pretzel.1) U replied to wrong post
2) it is not about winning, losing but just talking whatever we know & think.
3) I wanna thank u wherever u liked my posts & replies.
4) Experts don't come to unofficial time pass forums like this. They are very busy with their professional friend circle. If they are part of Dod then they are sweared under secrecy.
5) All those years since 1990s i spent were only for me & my hobby or time-pass. There is no intention of profit, name, fame, etc.
6) Wikipedia is just 1 website. Search engines take to pages after pages of results including but not limited to Wikipedia, YouTube, Quora, StackExchnage, Reddit, private sites, etc, etc. Wiki doesn't provide all photos, videos, etc. It is not a 1-stop site.
7) The takeaway here is most usual people discuss about current affairs, politics, tourism, food, movies, cars, bikes, etc, Other very few like us prefer to talk on defence, aviation, heavy vehicles, etc. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. We all are amateurs, enthusiasts. If we were too serious then we would have joined DoD or persued degree in geipolitics, strategic affairs & become defence journalists or thinktankers.