Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
F-35 Spear Cap 3 missile project slides into the red
By George Allison - July 23, 2023The Ministry of Defence’s SPEAR Capability 3 project, tasked with delivering the future principal air-to-air ground weapon for the F-35 fleet, is having issues.
The expected completion date for the project has been revised from 30th June 2027 to 31st December 2047, although the reasons aren’t clear.
“Compared to financial year 21/22-Q4, the project’s end-date at 22/23-Q4 increased from 2027-06-30 to 2047-12-31.”
The shift in end date from 30 June 2027 to 31 December 2047 could be due to numerous factors. These could range from strategic adjustments, resourcing challenges, to more concealed technical or commercial factors. The extension could also be linked to the anticipated service life of the missile project. Notably, it may be a consideration of the missile’s lifespan, from deployment to retirement, or it could simply be a placeholder date, representing the need for more extensive project planning.
It is very unlikely to be a 20 year delay in the project. More so, the programme is also actively identifying opportunities to bring the schedule back within the approved timeline and spiraling capability developments to ensure the delivery of capability at the earliest opportunity, according to the data.
Alongside this, the project’s “Delivery Confidence Assessment” has shifted from Amber to Red, pointing towards substantial obstacles in the project’s trajectory. The factors causing this downgrade are primarily “challenges with resourcing sufficient suitably qualified and experienced people across the programme and delivery teams, and within industry.”
In an attempt to address these issues, the MOD is undertaking a series of deep-dives and establishing a monthly Programme Board with the new Senior Responsible Owner.
"to more concealed technical or commercial factors"
A MBDA missile. A French UK company. Who would have thought that the French have issues? They only recently finally got the Meteor fitted to the Rafale. It is already due for a mid life update.
A MBDA missile. A French UK company. Who would have thought that the French have issues? They only recently finally got the Meteor fitted to the Rafale. It is already due for a mid life update.
Last edited:
Brimstone 3 project moves into ‘Red’ status, MOD Reveals
According to the latest Government Major Projects Portfolio (GMPP) data released by the Ministry of Defence, the Brimstone 3 project has encountered significant obstacles.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
Brimstone is another MBDA. It looks like the French UK company is in trouble. As Australia found out. it is never a good idea to partner with the French.
Last edited:
Brimstone 3 project moves into ‘Red’ status, MOD Reveals
According to the latest Government Major Projects Portfolio (GMPP) data released by the Ministry of Defence, the Brimstone 3 project has encountered significant obstacles.
Brimstone is another MBDA. It looks like the French UK company is in trouble. As Australia found out. it is never a good idea to partner with the French.
SPEAR and Brimstone are British programs.
There seems to be a disproportionate and clearly coordinated French cohort in this F-35 and F-22 thread that clearly favor Rafale above all sense and reasonability and is seemingly obsessed with the F-35. Despite all their claims that they are happy with the Rafale and how it is doing, losing to the F-35 on multiple occasions has clearly had a detrimental effect and that is leading to the overcompensation we see here. It has not been helped by things like AUKUS and other rejections of France. worse still the F-35 is gaining more steam and sales in Europe, especially among Eurofighter operators. Eurofighter is the original French obsession. The Ukrainian invasion has not only brought more F-35s into Europe in every way, but the F-35 seems to be doing very well in "real world" conditions as it patrols Eastern Europe, which is further cementing its reputation in Europe.
very difficult from the French perspective which has since at least 1940 always worried more about what it loses rather than anything it ever wins. Its a national imperative to try and close the barn doors after the horse has already escaped, and then try to convince the world that the horse is actually going to regret the fact that it escaped from the barn they failed to secure. With the French losing is always secretly winning.
Rafale is not even the best fighter in Europe, let alone the world, a lot of European countries have Rafale in 3rd place or worse when it comes to making choices. Rather be talking about F-35 and F-22 here, and Rafale in the Rafale thread, but the French are not happy to have their own place and have to pick petty fights against the fighter they lost to in the hopes no one noticed. The Rafale has been exposed. the rest is subterfuge. I wonder how different this thread would be without the French shitting the entire thing up.
its great that Rafale was able to win in France! well done! but the list falls short when we realize that many of these countries above do not have the F-35 available to begin with and Hydra's point is that when they are actually compared in competitions and other offerings the F-35 wins. in the case of the UAE the US politics intervened in not selling the F-35 with the new incoming presidential administration. US politics helping the Rafale. Greeks are also buying F-35s. and we have seen Rafales lose in Brazil. Rafale wins when no F-35s are in competition with it. when the Rafale competes against the F-35 Rafale loses. a lot of these countries you have listed are still buying US aircraft as well as Rafales, just not US F-35s. much like there are lots of excuses as to the why the Rafale loses there are plenty of excuses why the US will not be selling F-35 to places like Serbia especially given their history with Russia. Saudi Arabia is on the no-no list as well for F-35s. When F-35s and Rafales are in the running the F-35s win. many times Rafales are not even considered at all like in the Czech republic or Slovakia. Even Croatia tried to get F-16s from Israel first but US politics stopped the deal, thus helping the Rafale:
Croatia formally nixes F-16 purchase from Israel after US objection
Israel apologizes after deal to provide 12 fighter jets for $500m vetoed by Washington, which reportedly demanded Israeli upgrades be rolled back
www.timesofisrael.com
The Rafale is not a "game changing" bird like the F-35 is unless doing the old way well is the same as changing the game. F-35 is not just ahead of Rafale on stealth either. for all the complaining about "passive stealth" The Rafale is not so kinematically ahead of the F-35 as to be radically different. Especially when compared to other Mach 2+ airplanes. nothing makes me laugh harder than hearing how the Rafale is not "compromised" by stealth which is why its not even 10 percent faster than the F-35. and the F-22 and J-20 are stealth and they don't seem to suffer in performance.
Rafale and F-35 are comparable in terms in kinematics. for the F-35 this is a compliment. For the Rafale, I expected Rafale to do better than "Fattie" UAE F-16 pilots said the Rafale felt underpowered and a US Super Hornet pilot with experience said the Rafale was very comparable to a Super Hornet except in a few areas where it surpassed the F-18E/F. So that is a super hornet. not exactly kinematic dynamos. I don't see how the Rafale is more versatile than the F-35 when its lacking key mission sets like SEAD, I don't see how its more reliable since both aircraft seem to have widely varying readiness rates that seem to fluctuate and alter depending on who is flying them. The F-35s in some cases have better readiness than the French air force Rafales, weapons load is debatable depending on what we are talking about and is its own subject that may or may not even be relevant.
in the end the F-35 is a systems approach. meaning its purpose is like an aircraft carrier ; to be a platform of attack. not about having the biggest guns and most armor like a battleship which intervenes directly. The Rafale is a better battleship, and its fans keep trying to portray things like that. "my battleship will beat your aircraft carrier because we have 16" guns, and your carrier does not" using a measurement that is indeed superior but also completely irrelevant. The French are finally starting to learn this thanks to Ukraine. The Rafale is not a "game changer" because its battlefield effects are limited to the Rafale. Thats why there is such a sudden interest in SEAD again. it turns out that SAM systems have to be eliminated or heavily suppressed at all times, not just when a Rafale is flying by and temporarily jamming them.
This is largely thanks to the smaller French defense budget. They simply don't have the money to actually take on IADS, so the plan was to "bypass" them via systems like SPECTRA and save ordnance (which costs money!) for their primary targets. this is very different from the F-35 and much closer to a traditional "fighter". A Rafale can take off with 4 missiles and six bombs. An F-35 can take off with no missiles and no bombs and it will still kill more targets because it will highlight enemy targets automatically and SAMs, Artillery, Rockets, and cruise missiles will do the work. The French will say this is "politics" and I hope they continue to think that, because when they realize what the problem is, they may actually try to fix it. thats the beauty of the Rafale arguement. they keep trying to tell everyone who wants aircraft carriers that they build a better battleship. they unwitting talk themselves out of a sale. If you look at the way Boeing was trying to sell the Super Hornet in Finland you can see how they try to emulate the F-35 talking points because that is now the standard in the west. and if you look at how the Rafale fans are selling the Rafale they are now echoing the Gripen talking points. not just because they are unoriginal and lack imagination, but because cost and reliability with better kinematics and the "80 percent as good but at much less cost!" is all they have left when they aren't crying "Politique!" but like i said, they lack imagination. The idea that they might be serving an inferior product to an uninterested customer simply does not enter their brains.
Aircraft carriers don't do very much killing, but their aircraft sure do. and aircraft carriers were actually game changers. The direct fire capability of a battleship was quickly made irrelevant in Naval combat. A carrier shot down a few aircraft here and there directly, but its main weapon system was the aircraft. F-35 is the same. it will kill a few things directly, and many many more things indirectly. Thats how F-35s have kill Ratios of 20-1 in red flag while carrying what 2 or 4 missiles? Ever wonder how that is possible? its not from the 25mm cannon.
The Rafale is a lot like the maginot line that just like the old days the French are convinced is unbeatable, and operating under the circular logic that more maginot line is the cure for any faults of the maginot line because of course the maginot line is unstoppable! when you point out that the Maginot line is fundamentally flawed as a concept, they respond with more facts about the Maginot line. how deep its tunnels, how well equipped its bunkers etc. there is simply no getting through to them until the "panzers of politics" completely outflank them. Ukraine is at least offering some "soft" lessons as opposed to the hard ones and that is why we are seeing a sudden emphasis in new mission sets that were dormant in the Rafale, despite Rafale fans telling everyone the Rafale excelled in them of course, even did better than the F-35 at SEAD! only to find out that decades later there is no SEAD, and of course the F-35 was built with SEAD in mind from the start. Rafale will get it in the future, but its a needed versatility Rafale lacks to name just the really obvious one.
this concludes my TED talk. look up JADC2 if you want to get a better idea of what the goal is, and in before the French tell me the Rafale already does all this and they already have something like JADC2 and its even betterer
Give the Rafale to the Americans and get the French to represent the F-35, all those countries will choose the Rafale. Buying a jet and buying American are not the same thing.
The French traditional market is expanding while the American one is contracting. Almost 310 Rafales have been contracted against almost 373 F-35s for exports. Both have 7 clients each. And while the 373 includes a big market like Japan, the equally big market of India is yet to be tapped by the French.
What more, the French have been able to push the Americans out of some of their own markets, like Egypt and Indonesia, whereas the Americans are yet to do the same in traditional French markets. Which means we are yet to see a proper F-35 vs Rafale competition without bias favouring the F-35.
Rafale's customers are also more serious air forces today because of their more dangerous threat environment with a greater potential for war.
With that said, the F-35 has the potential to be the better jet in the future (only with the new engine, or else they are roughly on par), which does provide some leeway in your argument, but it's not the case today. When the IAF Chief was asked about inducting aircraft like the F-35, he said it's not mature or stealthy enough. Basically it's not mature today, obviously, and by the time it becomes mature enough for induction, its stealth is gonna be less relevant. The Israelis gave the same reason for why they wanted to modify it with their own EW systems.
In just a few more years, the F-35's low RCS will not be relevant on its own. It will have to be compensated by EA, which is why even the F-22 is gonna get some EA. So, the Rafale with stealth drones and the F-35 with stealth drones will roughly be on par with each other. Only the AETP engine upgrade will give it some physical and electrical advantages that the Rafale cannot match without a similar upgrade, which is not on the cards yet.
Maybe 10 years later, both jets at their peak in their F5+ and B4+ versions, newly rich countries interested in 1 or 2 squadrons each, we may see new non-traditional battlegrounds for the Rafale and F-35. So we may get a real answer then.
A lot of this stuff doesn't work though. The F-35 is definitely the king of simulators, and that's where all the traditional F-35 markets are getting their evaluation scores from, whereas the Rafale is being evaluated on its actual real world capabilities.
Basically, if you send your pilots out to face the enemy in the current version of the F-35, it would be no different from sending them to their deaths like two-bit conscripts. The USAF is very clear that a lot of what they want out of the F-35 is only possible upon the successful development of the Block 4.
In any case a lot of the stuff you've mentioned the F-35 will eventually do is already being done by the Rafale. In fact the IAF has a better network than the USAF 'cause of recent upgrades, stuff that's yet to come in via TTNT for NATO. That MADL link you keep hearing about for communications between F-35s, almost the entire IAF is now equipped with such a link.
The French are in the process of getting it too.
In a year or two, even our battletanks and infantry will be connected to the Rafale (and the rest of the IAF).
Bengaluru-based Firm To Supply 400 Software-defined Radios For Army Tanks | Bengaluru News - Times of India
Bengaluru: Bengaluru-based Alpha Design Technologies Limited (ADTL) has signed an order to supply 400 indigenously made Software-Defined Radios (SDRs).
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
We can even integrate SAMs with fighter jets. So a lot of the F-35's advertised capabilities will become contemporary. And it's not just India, even Russia and China are doing it, which is why the USAF says future wars will see them having to fight in a contested airspace. The deeper pockets and experience of the US aerospace sector done in by the f&ckery of Robert Gates and LM.
It’s Payment Time: Morocco Wants F-35 Jets
According to sources in Rabat, Morocco is considering the purchase of fifth-generation F-35 fighter jets to enhance its capabilities vis-à-vis its neighbor Algeria. The two countries are engaged in an ongoing dispute concerning the sovereignty of the Western Sahara territory, which Morocco...
Debate of feline brothers. Leo to Jager
Look bro, you make some really good points and solid arguments
. Of course, F-35s biggest advantage would be passive stealth. That advantage is so big that it categorizes F-35 as a next gen plane(5th) versus 4++ gen Rafale. But you need to have an open mind to understand Rafale's capabilities.Kinematically, Rafale can supercruise at 1.4 Mach with 6 missiles. Not possible in F-35. Rafale can carry 9.5 tons payload. Not possible in F-35. Rafale can sustain over 24+° per second turn-rate at sea-level. Not possible for F-35. Rafale can fire a 300+ kms range BVR missile and take high value targets without getting close. Not possible in F-35. Rafale's OSF-NG(which India has got) can detect VLO subsonic planes from over 100 kms in forward sector. Currently EOTS is not that capable, only in Block-4 they will add a LWIR QWIP sensor.
DDM-NG is also capable of 360° scan and is capable of shooting MICA-IR even in the rear sector just like EODAS. Rafale currently is the best 4th gen plane in entire world. F-35 is still a work in progress.
anyone not in a block 4 F-35 is dead meat is an interesting argument. its amazing to think that the entire USAF is essentially a kamikaze force since there are no block 4 F-35s currently. its an LM talking point yes? "Anyone not in a block 4 F-35 is dead" ? poor helpless F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22, F-35 Growler. Just a bunch of flying coffins since they don't fly in Block 4 F-35s.
In any case a lot of the stuff you've mentioned the F-35 will eventually do is already being done by the Rafale. In fact the IAF has a better network than the USAF 'cause of recent upgrades, stuff that's yet to come in via TTNT for NATO. That MADL link you keep hearing about for communications between F-35s, almost the entire IAF is now equipped with such a link.
The French are in the process of getting it too.
In a year or two, even our battletanks and infantry will be connected to the Rafale (and the rest of the IAF).
Bengaluru-based Firm To Supply 400 Software-defined Radios For Army Tanks | Bengaluru News - Times of India
Bengaluru: Bengaluru-based Alpha Design Technologies Limited (ADTL) has signed an order to supply 400 indigenously made Software-Defined Radios (SDRs).
predictable as the sunrise.
Debate of feline brothers. Leo to Jager
Look bro, you make some really good points and solid arguments
Kinematically, Rafale can supercruise at 1.4 Mach with 6 missiles. Not possible in F-35. Rafale can carry 9.5 tons payload. Not possible in F-35. Rafale can sustain over 24+° per second turn-rate at sea-level. Not possible for F-35. Rafale can fire a 300+ kms range BVR missile and take high value targets without getting close. Not possible in F-35. Rafale's OSF-NG(which India has got) can detect VLO subsonic planes from over 100 kms in forward sector. Currently EOTS is not that capable, only in Block-4 they will add a LWIR QWIP sensor.
DDM-NG is also capable of 360° scan and is capable of shooting MICA-IR even in the rear sector just like EODAS. Rafale currently is the best 4th gen plane in entire world. F-35 is still a work in progress.
Thank you and I feel the same about your points. this a a matter of "cherry picking" I mean this in a good way various attributes and can be done with any fighter. The Gripen is faster than the Rafale in top speed and has a single engine that is easier to maintain. A Rafale fan would then counter that the top speed is not relevant, and that twin engines can be better for safety. This can go on forever. and Gripens had Meteor first! a Typhoon fan will also be able to point out things Typhoons can do that Rafales can't. Rafale fans will counter with their own pros while downplaying the Rafale's weaknesses.
the 9.5 tons payload would deserve further evaluation when we remember that a portion of that 9.5 tons is external fuel, while the F-35 carries all its fuel internally and the Rafale has 4700 kilos of fuel vs the F-35s about 8300 kilos of internal fuel. A difference of 3,600 kilos.
Rafale 4700 kg fuel + 9500 kilo of weapons and external fuel = 14,200 kilos
F-35A about 8300 kg fuel + about 8000 kilos of external ordnance = 16000 kilos.
its not as obvious when there is analysis. we arrive at the F-35 doing different things but still being measured against the "old method." Most Fighters (and none in the light or "medium" class) are carrying 8000+ kilos of internal fuel the Flanker MKI is exceptional-- over 9,000 kilos and the F-15 is at over 6000 kilos. despite having a "lower payload" the F-35 will likely be able to carry more weapons and USABLE payload, vs hauling around external "gas bags" No doubt you can load an Rafale to the gills with nothing but bombs and no external fuel but the range will not be useful or realistic, and as was pointed out over 10 years ago, the F-35 can do that too, just fill to 4700 kilos instead of 8300 kilos of fuel.
this is just one example and what pickleoil and Randomradio are doing is speaking in very broad statements that upon close inspection suffer. Of course the US is not selling F-35 to Serbia! of course France is buying Rafale! or Randomradio counting 7 exports (?) while not including the fact that the F-35 is being purchased by 17 countries last I checked? so he is clearly excluding the partners nations in the exports? lets not forget Thailand, Taiwan, Turkey all desiring F-35s and being excluded from them. he is cherry picking which in some cases is understandable as we discussed pros and cons, its fair game, but this is simply ridiculous. hopefully he gets French good boy points for making such obviously biased and deliberately stilted posts, and with enough good guy points he may even get a French flag and beret in the mail! pic will give him good pets on his head! if the US decided to sell F-35s to just anyone the score would be even more lopsided and the French know this. The French overall are having a great year for weapons exports (not just the Rafale) but again the glass is always half empty. The UAE could buy 800 Rafales and they would still complain because the Swiss told them no. AUKUS still makes them unhappy etc.
"Within 24 hours on February 10-11, $22 billion worth of purchases by the Indonesian Defense Ministry of Western fighter jets were announced under two major contracts. The first was an $8.1 billion deal for 42 Rafale twin engine lightweight fighter jets from France, and the second a $13.9 billion deal for 36 F-15 Eagle heavyweight fighters from the United States."
You may want to research that a little more and also remember that the US sells more than F-35s and that is just if we are talking about aircraft. I guess "traditional" French markets is up to how you choose to define them. AUKUS not "traditionally French" so there was no market penetration there?? A lot of countries like Indonesia buy from multiple countries. Egypt buys from everywhere. The US is clearly expanding its fighter market, and namely into Eastern Europe. its like you don't even try!
USAF's own words. It's 'cause adversary capabilities have caught up.
It's your own ignorance. Hardware doesn't lie, only people lie.
The links I posted, even the USAF doesn't yet fully operate today. Only on AWACS and other force multipliers.
This stuff for NATO.
So the F-35 can communicate with force multipliers, perhaps some satellites and of course itself via MADL. But a global link connecting the F-35 to all other assets is yet to be introduced, that's ships, tanks and soldiers.
All your arguments apply for 2029 or 2030.
No TR-3.
Upgraded F-35s won't be accepted by Pentagon come July - Breaking Defense
An unknown number of new F-35s will be held up as a result of ongoing testing for the TR-3 system, with deliveries expected to start between December 2023 and April 2024.
“Starting later this summer, F-35 aircraft coming off the production line with TR-3 hardware will not be accepted (DD250) until relevant combat capability is validated in accordance with our users’ expectations. The JPO and Lockheed Martin will ensure these aircraft are safely and securely stored until DD250 occurs,” he added.
No FRP.
Ramping Up F-35 Production Above 156 Annually Would Require New Tooling, Air Force Acquisition Chief Says - Defense Daily
While DoD and Lockheed Martin hope to reach a production rate of 156 annually for the F-35 fighter, building more than 156 per year for the U.S. Air
www.defensedaily.com
No FOC.
F-35 upgrades slip to 2024, drawing lawmaker’s ire
“We currently are paying for a great capability, but we’re currently only getting a good capability fielded,” subcommittee chairman Rep. Rob Wittman said.
www.defensenews.com
No B4.
F-35 modernization program's costs, schedule keeps growing: GAO - Breaking Defense
“In 2021, the program office added 3 years to its Block 4 schedule and now expects to extend Block 4 development and delivery into fiscal year 2029, in part, due to the addition of new capabilities,” the GAO said in its annual report on the F-35.
So no TR-3, no FOC, no FRP and no B4. The F-35 is still WIP and will remain so until 2029. It's not myself or the French claiming it.
It was predictable that you clearly do not have the facts. You should wait until 2029 to make your claims at the minimum. And until 2030-35 before the F-35 becomes available for a real world competition.