Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

:ROFLMAO:
LM FAST FACTS:

990 F-35s delivered, 773,000 hours. The number of sorties is no longer published. 160000 hours in one year (January 22 to January 23)

recall december 2023 980 F-35 delivered, 768000 hours. 166,000 hours in one year (December 22 to December 23) and 18,000 hours this month.

January 2023 reminder: 613,000 flight hours and 890 F-35s delivered.

The annual number of flying hours is falling, despite more F-35s ...
 
Sory It's not 18000 but 5000 hours this month.
Last year in december 890 F-35 have been able to fly 147000 or 165 hours / year. This time 990 were able to fly 160000 hours or 161 hours / year.
F-35 became older at a very fast speed.
 
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You keep telling us about 30% availability. Does this mean it is really 500 hours a year?
Availability and the number of flying hours an aircraft can do in a year are two different concepts.

Availability depends on the qualities of the aircraft, the organisation and intensity of maintenance and the use made of the aircraft. For example, if we assume that all the necessary maintenance tasks have just been carried out on the aircraft in a squadron, then these aircraft are all available, i.e. they can all be assigned to a mission.

If we don't fly any aircraft now, they will all remain available, but if we fly half the squadron, only half the aircraft will be available until maintenance has made some of the aircraft that have flown available.

So the more aircraft fly, the less available they are. To counter this effect, maintenance has to be stepped up to make aircraft available more quickly.

The conclusion is that 50% availability with 150 hours of flight per year is not as good as 50% availability with 250 hours of flight per year.
 

The Government Should Cancel the F-35 Program and Replace It With Nothing

BYDANAKA KATOVICH

The F-35 fighter plane project is a complete failure. But if it ends up on the congressional chopping block, Lockheed Martin will do everything in its power to line up another trillion-dollar weapons manufacturing contract in its stead.

Two facts about the F-35 fighter plane are nearly universally recognized: first, the plane has capabilities never before seen in a fighter jet, and second, it’s a complete disaster.

At a record-breaking cost of $1.75 trillion in public money, with hardly anything to show for it, the F-35 project is increasingly hard to rationalize. Even top government officials are now criticizing it, posing the question: Could the project be nearing its termination? If that happens, we must be ready to demand that no similar project takes its place — even though weapons manufacturers will do everything in their power to line up a new trillion-dollar contract.

Pentagon contracts are convoluted and confusing, but suffice to say that weapons manufacturers like Lockheed Martin have a lot to gain from obtaining them and little accountability if the projects don’t go as planned. Consequently, these contracts regularly see cost overruns on top of already massive price tags.

The F-35 project accelerated out of a similar boondoggle. In 2009, when former secretary of defense Robert Gates terminated the costly F-22 program, the United States decided to buy more F-35s. This way, though the F-22 program was canceled, money would still flow uninterrupted from the Pentagon to Lockheed Martin.

Based on this contract, it was projected that the United States would procure 1,700 F-35s by 2025. Now, due to engineering and manufacturing difficulties, these procurements are running extremely behind schedule. The project is also experiencing massive cost overruns, with doubled maintenance costs.

Okay, it’s behind schedule and costs more than we originally thought. Does the plane at least work like it’s supposed to? No. No, it doesn’t.

The F-35 is still not ready for full-scale production. A myriad of technical issues with the engine have been reported, and as recently as July 2022, most US F-35s were grounded because of problems with the ejection seats. An analyst at the Government Accountability Office (GAO) attributed the F-35’s failures to its complexity, saying, “They tried to make the F-35 do too much.”

Given these failures, the F-35 project is becoming impossible for important members of Congress to justify. The chair of the House Armed Services Committee (HASC), Representative Adam Smith, called the F-35 a “rathole.” Another member of HASC, Representative John Garamendi, had some scathing comments about the F-35 in a HASC subcommittee hearing in May:

For the contractors out there, what are you doing? Why can’t you give us a piece of equipment that actually works? You should never have a contract. And for Lockheed, you want a five-year maintenance contract? You can’t do what you’re doing today. Come on. What are we thinking?

Adding to his criticism, Representative Jackie Speier said:

We created a sustainment contract where we are not in charge, and Lockheed Martin has the maintenance contract. . . . It’s a cash cow for them for the future. Since we have a record that maintenance costs are doubled and a record that we can’t keep those planes flying, how can we look the taxpayers in the face and say “Well, that’s the way it is,” and shrug our shoulders?

Meanwhile, the Biden administration has asked for a 35 percent cut to the F-35 procurements for 2023 — on the reasoning that, down the line, Lockheed Martin will complete the Block 4 model of the fighter, and the government would rather spend the money later than modernize a fleet of already existing aircraft.

But we’re not done with the F-35 just yet. While HASC did not increase the number of F-35s the United States would buy in their new markup of the National Defense Authorization Act, the Senate Armed Services Committee added seven F-35s to the budget. For now, we are still spending massive amounts of public money on a plane that does not work, is nine years behind schedule, and that important figures in the government can’t justify.

From the looming recession to the criticism from top government officials, conditions surrounding the F-35 project resemble those that led to the demise of the F-22. For a preview of what’s likely to happen next, look at what occurred when the F-22 program was discontinued. With their steady stream of government checks in peril, Lockheed Martin scrambled. They used the specter of job losses as their primary means of lobbying for a new contract. How could Congress eliminate so many jobs created by the F-22 program and replace them with nothing? And so, their discontinued contract was summarily replaced.

The F-35 project may soon be on the chopping block, but Lockheed Martin won’t willingly disembark the gravy train. At some point, we as a nation have to ask ourselves: Does this uninterrupted string of massive weapons contracts even make sense? As Joe Biden contemplates declaring a state of emergency over the climate crisis, can we justify spending $1.7 trillion on a plane that uses 1,340 gallons of fuel per hour? Can we justify funneling our brightest minds in STEM into the war machine when we desperately need to invest in green energy? Can we justify pouring money into a military that causes harm all over the world when we desperately need international solidarity to solve our toughest problems?

A large majority of Lockheed Martin’s revenue comes directly from our tax dollars. If the fall of the F-35 program comes soon, we have to be ready to demand that one massive contract doesn’t get replaced with another. For the sake of the planet and the future, the F-35 program needs to be canceled, and we must prevent another wasteful endeavor from taking its place.
 

An Insider’s View Of Options To Fix The F-35’s Cooling Crisis

Steve Trimble November 03, 2023
F-35 silhouette at sunset

Planned F-35 electronics upgrades will put further pressure on an already overtaxed thermal management system.

Credit: R. Nial Bradshaw/U.S. Air Force

A difficult decision looms for the leadership of the Lockheed Martin F-35 program. A major upgrade of the stealth jet’s overloaded cooling system is coming, but should program officials scope the improved thermal management system to address future needs, or should they scope it merely to solve the immediate overheating issues?

The answer could make the difference between a relatively straightforward upgrade and a far more intrusive modification, according to Honeywell Defense and Space, the supplier of the existing power and thermal management system (PTMS) for the F-35.
  • Upgrades may address different waste heat levels
  • Block 4 upgrade program will worsen cooling shortfall
Matt Milas, president of Honeywell Defense and Space, says he is concerned that program officials are favoring the more radical upgrade option, which he warns would require replacing the cooling system’s “plumbing”—the network of tubes bearing a liquid coolant that snakes through the F-35’s interior, including through the jet’s load-carrying bulkheads.

“That presents a lot of problems because now you have to swap out some of the plumbing,” Milas tells Aviation Week. “When you swap out the plumbing, you have to take the skins off the wings and things like that.”

The F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) held a PTMS Industry Day on June 12-14 to receive industry feedback on proposals to upgrade the jet’s overwhelmed cooling system. A final decision may still be weeks or months away.

“We are very early into the Defense Acquisition System/Process,” a JPO spokesman told Aviation Week in an email. “All PTMS options will be assessed to ensure we provide the greatest capability to the warfighter.”

The need for a major cooling system upgrade has been a long time coming.

Honeywell’s PTMS siphons hot air from the compressor module of the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, and that air is dissipated through a fan duct heat exchanger. It is then further dissipated over tubes of polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant, a fluid that channels the absorbed heat to a PAO-to-air heat exchanger. The air is then cooled further through a recuperator and a loads heat exchanger. Finally, this chilled air is passed through a closed-loop cycle around the F-35’s electronics.

F-35 designers assumed the electronics would need to handle no more than 14 kW of waste heat. That assumption drove the design of key details of the PTMS, including the power output of the motor for the cooling system and the diameter of the tubes feeding the cooling fluid to the PAO-to-air heat exchanger.

Fifteen years ago, however, Lockheed discovered that the cooling system was insufficient, according to a report in May by the Government Accountability Office. Instead of requiring 14 kW of cooling capacity, the Block 3F F-35 demanded up to 32 kW. To close this gap, Lockheed, Pratt and Honeywell adapted the PTMS to siphon twice the amount of air out of the engine as intended, but that has reduced the propulsion system’s longevity and increased repair costs.

The cooling shortfall is widening as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements have increased the requirement for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. Furthermore, classified upgrades envisioned for the 2030s could drive the requirement up to at least 62 kW—and perhaps as high as 80 kW.

According to Milas, adapting the cooling system capacity to address the needs of the Block 4 requirement is straightforward. “What we could do to get up to the 47 kW is put on a more powerful motor and some more sturdy valves and push the PAO fluid through a little bit faster,” he says.
Jumping to a 62-kW capacity system, however, will require more extensive changes, he notes. “If you want to jump to 62 kW of cooling, you’re not able to do it with the current [diameter] of plumbing,” Milas says. “You’ve only got a certain diameter [of tube], so if you want more heat dissipation off of those, you need more fluid to carry the heat and to take it to the heat exchangers.”

The PAO tubes pass through the F-35’s drilled holes in the internal bulkheads and frames. If the diameter of the tubes increases, the holes in each of the bulkheads and frames also would have to be enlarged, Milas says. “We start making the holes bigger—a quarter-inch—but it adds up and makes a big difference from a structural loads [issue],” he added.
 
It helps to get the little things right.
"The F-35 will require 20%-30% more cooling for a future Block 5 upgrade beyond Block 4."

@Herciv. You take total planes and the reported hours per month. You can't just divide to get flight hours for each aircraft and we don't know if reported is actual hours. It doesn't work like that.
Those reported numbers don't coincide with Australian actual numbers, which you love to misquote. Also a lot is done in the sims, as you know. We want the planes to last more than 40 years. Going by your rafale numbers, they are burnt out at 20 years
 
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The Government Should Cancel the F-35 Program and Replace It With Nothing

BYDANAKA KATOVICH

The F-35 fighter plane project is a complete failure. But if it ends up on the congressional chopping block, Lockheed Martin will do everything in its power to line up another trillion-dollar weapons manufacturing contract in its stead.

Two facts about the F-35 fighter plane are nearly universally recognized: first, the plane has capabilities never before seen in a fighter jet, and second, it’s a complete disaster.

At a record-breaking cost of $1.75 trillion in public money, with hardly anything to show for it, the F-35 project is increasingly hard to rationalize. Even top government officials are now criticizing it, posing the question: Could the project be nearing its termination? If that happens, we must be ready to demand that no similar project takes its place — even though weapons manufacturers will do everything in their power to line up a new trillion-dollar contract.

Pentagon contracts are convoluted and confusing, but suffice to say that weapons manufacturers like Lockheed Martin have a lot to gain from obtaining them and little accountability if the projects don’t go as planned. Consequently, these contracts regularly see cost overruns on top of already massive price tags.

The F-35 project accelerated out of a similar boondoggle. In 2009, when former secretary of defense Robert Gates terminated the costly F-22 program, the United States decided to buy more F-35s. This way, though the F-22 program was canceled, money would still flow uninterrupted from the Pentagon to Lockheed Martin.

Based on this contract, it was projected that the United States would procure 1,700 F-35s by 2025. Now, due to engineering and manufacturing difficulties, these procurements are running extremely behind schedule. The project is also experiencing massive cost overruns, with doubled maintenance costs.

Okay, it’s behind schedule and costs more than we originally thought. Does the plane at least work like it’s supposed to? No. No, it doesn’t.

The F-35 is still not ready for full-scale production. A myriad of technical issues with the engine have been reported, and as recently as July 2022, most US F-35s were grounded because of problems with the ejection seats. An analyst at the Government Accountability Office (GAO) attributed the F-35’s failures to its complexity, saying, “They tried to make the F-35 do too much.”

Given these failures, the F-35 project is becoming impossible for important members of Congress to justify. The chair of the House Armed Services Committee (HASC), Representative Adam Smith, called the F-35 a “rathole.” Another member of HASC, Representative John Garamendi, had some scathing comments about the F-35 in a HASC subcommittee hearing in May:

For the contractors out there, what are you doing? Why can’t you give us a piece of equipment that actually works? You should never have a contract. And for Lockheed, you want a five-year maintenance contract? You can’t do what you’re doing today. Come on. What are we thinking?

Adding to his criticism, Representative Jackie Speier said:

We created a sustainment contract where we are not in charge, and Lockheed Martin has the maintenance contract. . . . It’s a cash cow for them for the future. Since we have a record that maintenance costs are doubled and a record that we can’t keep those planes flying, how can we look the taxpayers in the face and say “Well, that’s the way it is,” and shrug our shoulders?

Meanwhile, the Biden administration has asked for a 35 percent cut to the F-35 procurements for 2023 — on the reasoning that, down the line, Lockheed Martin will complete the Block 4 model of the fighter, and the government would rather spend the money later than modernize a fleet of already existing aircraft.

But we’re not done with the F-35 just yet. While HASC did not increase the number of F-35s the United States would buy in their new markup of the National Defense Authorization Act, the Senate Armed Services Committee added seven F-35s to the budget. For now, we are still spending massive amounts of public money on a plane that does not work, is nine years behind schedule, and that important figures in the government can’t justify.

From the looming recession to the criticism from top government officials, conditions surrounding the F-35 project resemble those that led to the demise of the F-22. For a preview of what’s likely to happen next, look at what occurred when the F-22 program was discontinued. With their steady stream of government checks in peril, Lockheed Martin scrambled. They used the specter of job losses as their primary means of lobbying for a new contract. How could Congress eliminate so many jobs created by the F-22 program and replace them with nothing? And so, their discontinued contract was summarily replaced.

The F-35 project may soon be on the chopping block, but Lockheed Martin won’t willingly disembark the gravy train. At some point, we as a nation have to ask ourselves: Does this uninterrupted string of massive weapons contracts even make sense? As Joe Biden contemplates declaring a state of emergency over the climate crisis, can we justify spending $1.7 trillion on a plane that uses 1,340 gallons of fuel per hour? Can we justify funneling our brightest minds in STEM into the war machine when we desperately need to invest in green energy? Can we justify pouring money into a military that causes harm all over the world when we desperately need international solidarity to solve our toughest problems?

A large majority of Lockheed Martin’s revenue comes directly from our tax dollars. If the fall of the F-35 program comes soon, we have to be ready to demand that one massive contract doesn’t get replaced with another. For the sake of the planet and the future, the F-35 program needs to be canceled, and we must prevent another wasteful endeavor from taking its place.

Can't really take this seriously.

 

An Insider’s View Of Options To Fix The F-35’s Cooling Crisis

Steve Trimble November 03, 2023
F-35 silhouette at sunset

Planned F-35 electronics upgrades will put further pressure on an already overtaxed thermal management system.

Credit: R. Nial Bradshaw/U.S. Air Force

A difficult decision looms for the leadership of the Lockheed Martin F-35 program. A major upgrade of the stealth jet’s overloaded cooling system is coming, but should program officials scope the improved thermal management system to address future needs, or should they scope it merely to solve the immediate overheating issues?

The answer could make the difference between a relatively straightforward upgrade and a far more intrusive modification, according to Honeywell Defense and Space, the supplier of the existing power and thermal management system (PTMS) for the F-35.
  • Upgrades may address different waste heat levels
  • Block 4 upgrade program will worsen cooling shortfall
Matt Milas, president of Honeywell Defense and Space, says he is concerned that program officials are favoring the more radical upgrade option, which he warns would require replacing the cooling system’s “plumbing”—the network of tubes bearing a liquid coolant that snakes through the F-35’s interior, including through the jet’s load-carrying bulkheads.

“That presents a lot of problems because now you have to swap out some of the plumbing,” Milas tells Aviation Week. “When you swap out the plumbing, you have to take the skins off the wings and things like that.”

The F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) held a PTMS Industry Day on June 12-14 to receive industry feedback on proposals to upgrade the jet’s overwhelmed cooling system. A final decision may still be weeks or months away.

“We are very early into the Defense Acquisition System/Process,” a JPO spokesman told Aviation Week in an email. “All PTMS options will be assessed to ensure we provide the greatest capability to the warfighter.”

The need for a major cooling system upgrade has been a long time coming.

Honeywell’s PTMS siphons hot air from the compressor module of the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, and that air is dissipated through a fan duct heat exchanger. It is then further dissipated over tubes of polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant, a fluid that channels the absorbed heat to a PAO-to-air heat exchanger. The air is then cooled further through a recuperator and a loads heat exchanger. Finally, this chilled air is passed through a closed-loop cycle around the F-35’s electronics.

F-35 designers assumed the electronics would need to handle no more than 14 kW of waste heat. That assumption drove the design of key details of the PTMS, including the power output of the motor for the cooling system and the diameter of the tubes feeding the cooling fluid to the PAO-to-air heat exchanger.

Fifteen years ago, however, Lockheed discovered that the cooling system was insufficient, according to a report in May by the Government Accountability Office. Instead of requiring 14 kW of cooling capacity, the Block 3F F-35 demanded up to 32 kW. To close this gap, Lockheed, Pratt and Honeywell adapted the PTMS to siphon twice the amount of air out of the engine as intended, but that has reduced the propulsion system’s longevity and increased repair costs.

The cooling shortfall is widening as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements have increased the requirement for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. Furthermore, classified upgrades envisioned for the 2030s could drive the requirement up to at least 62 kW—and perhaps as high as 80 kW.

According to Milas, adapting the cooling system capacity to address the needs of the Block 4 requirement is straightforward. “What we could do to get up to the 47 kW is put on a more powerful motor and some more sturdy valves and push the PAO fluid through a little bit faster,” he says.
Jumping to a 62-kW capacity system, however, will require more extensive changes, he notes. “If you want to jump to 62 kW of cooling, you’re not able to do it with the current [diameter] of plumbing,” Milas says. “You’ve only got a certain diameter [of tube], so if you want more heat dissipation off of those, you need more fluid to carry the heat and to take it to the heat exchangers.”

The PAO tubes pass through the F-35’s drilled holes in the internal bulkheads and frames. If the diameter of the tubes increases, the holes in each of the bulkheads and frames also would have to be enlarged, Milas says. “We start making the holes bigger—a quarter-inch—but it adds up and makes a big difference from a structural loads [issue],” he added.

I had no clue it was this bad.
 
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Can't really take this seriously.

Yes, she knows nothing about it and she has an agenda that biases her statements, but if we compare her article and the moment when it is published to the fact that the situation is more serious than what we could think on the side of the temperature of the F-35, then we can say that she has contacts who told her that the situation was serious and that she is taking the opportunity to drive the point home.

Normally we should neglect this type of article, but what is most surprising is that his article is repeated both in the NI and in the Bulgarian, one to defuse the other to give advertising to the article.

F-35: Is There Any Chance This Stealth Fighter Gets Canceled?

American left: the F-35 is a massive cost overrun and must go
 
It helps to get the little things right.
"The F-35 will require 20%-30% more cooling for a future Block 5 upgrade beyond Block 4."
We understood that block 3F needed 32 Kw instead of 14 and that block 4 needed 47 kW. Beyond there is block 5 and the following blocks for block 5 the need is 62 kw or 32% beyond block 4 which is the upper limit of your estimate but beyond block 5 the need rises to 80 kw or 70% beyond the needs of block 4.
 
Yes, she knows nothing about it and she has an agenda that biases her statements, but if we compare her article and the moment when it is published to the fact that the situation is more serious than what we could think on the side of the temperature of the F-35, then we can say that she has contacts who told her that the situation was serious and that she is taking the opportunity to drive the point home.

Normally we should neglect this type of article, but what is most surprising is that his article is repeated both in the NI and in the Bulgarian, one to defuse the other to give advertising to the article.

F-35: Is There Any Chance This Stealth Fighter Gets Canceled?

American left: the F-35 is a massive cost overrun and must go

Bulgrian Military is part of a Russian propaganda network. They are only good for some exaggerated Russian news. Extremely biased against the West.

National Interest post articles about everything related to the military. They never stop. They are like me on this forum. :p

I just made 7 posts to 6 different people with 6 differing subjects on the same JF-17 thread. That's National Interest in a nutshell.
 
from pic's link. block 4 isn't the issue.

"The cooling deficit widens as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements increased the need for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. In addition, classified improvements planned for the 2030s could increase requirements to at least 62 kW , and perhaps as much as 80 kW .

According to Milas, adapting the cooling system capacity to meet the needs of Block 4 is simple. “What we could do to get to 47 kW is install a more powerful motor and more robust valves and pass the PAO fluid a little faster,” he says."
 
from pic's link. block 4 isn't the issue.

"The cooling deficit widens as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements increased the need for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. In addition, classified improvements planned for the 2030s could increase requirements to at least 62 kW , and perhaps as much as 80 kW .

According to Milas, adapting the cooling system capacity to meet the needs of Block 4 is simple. “What we could do to get to 47 kW is install a more powerful motor and more robust valves and pass the PAO fluid a little faster,” he says."

Even if it's possible on RAAF's older jets, it also means RAAF is gonna have to MLU their jets much earlier for any capability additions. In any case, the existing engines need to be upgraded as well.