Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Herciv said:
In fact no F-35 for Greece due to "'childhood illness'"
from the article above :
  • Greece says it's waiting to acquire upgraded versions of the fifth-gen F-35 that'll cure past "childhood illness."
As I see that you like to be help for reading I help you for this : the important word is "waiting"
Click to expand...

NATO ally Greece wants fifth-gen F-35 stealth fighters with the upgrades to cure past 'childhood illness'​

Chris Panella
Updated March 27, 2024

Greece Approves Purchase of F-35A Jets and Participation in Constellation Frigate Program.​

  • 1 Jul, 2024 - 9:17
The Greek Parliamentary Armaments Commission has approved plans to acquire 20 F-35A Lightning II fighter jets



What were you saying about READING again?
Herciv said:
20
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even you agreed with 20 purchased?
 
Spitfire6 said:
What were you saying about READING again?
Click to expand...
The current clickbait is that Greece wants block 4 / 2029. (Which I think is a good idea to get, because of the avionics/sensor updates, software isn't the issue.)
Even if they ordered it tomorrow and there was a slot in the production line for that order. With advanced procurement items, the earliest it could be delivered is in the 3rd year, 2027. So they are looking to place an order between now and at the latest, in 2026. For delivery of 20, starting in 29/30.

It has just been approved, there is still a lot of internal Greek stuff to do, before the order is placed. This would take it to 2025. So, all this is saying that when we order, before 2026. We want delivery in block 4, 2029.
So all this, is whether they order in 25, for block 4. Or wait till 26, to order for block 4.
 
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Optimist said:
The current clickbait is that Greece wants block 4 / 2029. (Which I think is a good idea to get, because of the avionics/sensor updates, software isn't the issue.)
Even if they ordered it tomorrow and there was a slot in the production line for that order. With advanced procurement items, the earliest it could be delivered is in the 3rd year, 2027. So they are looking to place an order between now and at the latest, in 2026. For delivery of 20, starting in 29/30.

It has just been approved, there is still a lot of internal Greek stuff to do, before the order is placed. This would take it to 2025. So, all this is saying that when we order, before 2026. We want delivery in block 4, 2029.
So all this, is whether they order in 25, for block 4. Or wait till 26, to order for block 4.
Click to expand...


I think you are correct. The DSCA doesn't specify any particular block of F-35 so the Greeks can pick this is important because as I understood it some of the original plans were to buy used/earlier block F-35s.

www.twz.com

Greece Says It Is Willing To Take Second-Hand F-35s As Part Of An Urgent Request: Report

Athens’ letter to the Pentagon could kickstart a fast-track acquisition process for the stealth fighters, which it says it badly needs.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

that plan seems long dead.

contrary to herciv (which could be a tagline) I don't see why as you note Greece can't order F-35s and accept newer aircraft further down the production. they pay up front (thats called an "order") and then they take delivery later. (I must specify because Herciv and Bonplan often mix these up phrases or don't bother to differentiate in order to mislead )

the phrase "childhood illness" is noteworthy. many machine translators use this phrase for "growing pains" I don't speak greek and I could not find the original quote in Greek to tinker with it. but there was something I found when I looked into this a little:

We have a cartload of different types of aircraft. We have F-4s, Mirage 2000-5s, Block 30 F-16s, Block 50 F-16s, Block 52 F-16s, Viper F-16s and Rafales. We cannot carry on this way. The F-4s need to be retired and, if possible, sold. The Mirage 2000-5 is an exceptionally capable plane and can be sold. The Block 30 F-16s need to be sold. And I think we will be able to sell the [Mirage 2000-5 and Block 30 F-16s],” Dendias said, pointing to the enormous cost of maintaining many different types of aircraft as opposed to having compatible fleets.

“As for the remaining aircraft, we need to get the F-16s to Viper level, we need to strengthen our fleet of Rafales – we have 24 but it would be good to reach 30 – and, of course, to acquire the Block 4 F-35, which has not become airborne yet but will have cured all the childhood illness of the fourth-generation aircraft,” he added.

Dendias conceded that there have been delays in the program for upgrading Greece’s F-16s to Viper level, but said he believes the country will have an “adequate fleet” of the aircraft by 2027, “at the latest.”

www.ekathimerini.com

Defense Minister hails ‘radical changes’ to Armed Forces | eKathimerini.com

Greece’s Armed Forces are undergoing a radical overhaul in what the prime minister has described as the “biggest reform program in the history of the modern Greek state,” Defense Minister Nikos Dendias confirmed on Monday.
www.ekathimerini.com www.ekathimerini.com

far be it from me to accuse the French posters of twisting things or just posting whatever they read without thinking, but it doesn't sound like the defence minister is referring to the F-35 other than curing the growing pains of the F-16 upgrades since they are selling anything not being upgraded to F-16V?

Do you remember when the Rafale was going to win in Switzerland? now they celebrate Greek delays in F-35 orders as victory. they are getting better at losing.
 
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Spitfire6 said:
at one point the French hive mind will have to come together and decide on the proper excuse narratives, because they are simply too numerous and contradictory. its interesting that "5th generation marketing" is such a sore point but at the same time you are telling us they can't get the marketing correct to the point that it is effecting sales.

Besides I thought the greeks placed an order for 20?


besides, I thought the publicity didn't matter remember? I thought people just bought F-35s no matter what to be with the United States? now you are telling us it hinges on "publicity" ??

make up your mind, I thought it was all rigged anyway, but now suddenly publicity is affecting the sale you told us would never happen?? it must be difficult keeping track of so many lies simultaneously. I wish you could see how obvious they all are, you might improve your posts that way. your canopy theory was debunked but you keep trying. Why? No one else is falling for this stupidity, and what do you hope to accomplish? Who do you think you will convince? honestly? who?
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Wake me up when these 20 will be firmly ordered.
 
May I ask about DAS and EOTS, is DAS able to perform air-to-air BVR missions like EOTS? or is it dedicated to MAWS missions only?
 
This will give you background. The new EO-DAS is going to be better and from a different supplier.
1721188119987.png


There are also more videos here



 
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Ryuuma8 said:
May I ask about DAS and EOTS, is DAS able to perform air-to-air BVR missions like EOTS? or is it dedicated to MAWS missions only?
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The current DAS doesn't have the range/resolution/speed for a BVR engagement. However, they're looking to seriously improve all the aforementioned points in Block-4 upgrade.

Still its primary job is to give F-35 pilots 360° situational awareness and to reduce maneuvering(cause fatty can't play there) during dogfights.

For BVR engagements, next-gen EOTS and APG-85 combo shall suffice along with 6 AMRAAMs for Block-4(with a sidekick).
 
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Both EO-DAS and EOTS are IRST. The current EO-DAS is said to have the sniper pod sensor. I don't know the range. Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it.
 
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Optimist said:
Both EO-DAS and EOTS are IRST. The current EO-DAS is said to have the sniper pod sensor. I don't know the range. Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it.
Click to expand...
Sniper pod is designed for ground targeting just like EOTS. EOTS combines both FLIR and IRST together. DAS is basically MAWS++ and is designed for 360° situational awareness and yes it does have IRST function as well, so it can track targets all around F-35. But Sniper pod equivalent? No, mate!
 
Idgit,
'Sniper pod semsor' that means Das has the same IR sensor as the sniper pod.
By the way, the EOTS was the first IRST and FLIR targeting
 
Optimist said:
Both EO-DAS and EOTS are IRST. The current EO-DAS is said to have the sniper pod sensor. I don't know the range. Data/sensor fusion from onboard and off-board is given to the pilot. He doesn't care where it comes from and what, or how many sensors working together, as long as he has it.
Click to expand...
How about air-to-air? Can EO-DAS fire IR-based BVR missiles (like Aim-9x block 3 which is said to have a range of up to 48 km)? If so, that would be very advantageous because EO-DAS itself has a 360° scope.
 
Yes it does provide IR LOAL within the range of the DAS, but don't get hooked on individual sensors. The sensors all work together as a team. To give the pilot what he needs

en.wikipedia.org

AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
The DAS provides three basic categories of functions in every direction simultaneously:[3]

 
Optimist said:
Yes it does provide IR LOAL within the range of the DAS, but don't get hooked on individual sensors. The sensors all work together as a team. To give the pilot what he needs

en.wikipedia.org

AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
The DAS provides three basic categories of functions in every direction simultaneously:[3]

Click to expand...
Can you provide evidence from other reliable sources? Because based on the Northrop Grumman youtube video above, EO-DAS needs to be integrated with EOTS and radar to image and id the target, which means EO-DAS is not capable of doing this task independently. And if EO-DAS were able to doing this task independently, wouldn't EOTS be completely unnecessary to install on the F-35?
 
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Believe what you want to believe. I really don't care and was trying to help you. Neither the radar or EOTS looks behind the aircraft. Even the aussie old hornet, could launch missiles at aircraft behind it. It's not magic. However I will give a link, because it was cool at the time.
www.defenseindustrydaily.com

RAAF Kills 'Over the Shoulder' with ASRAAM - Defense Industry Daily

ASRAAM on RAAF F/A-18A(click to view full) Key advances have been made in short-range air-to-air missiles and work well in combination with helmet-mounted sights. The combination of new wide-angle 'staring' seekers, exponential growth in onboard computer processing, 2-way data links, and the...
www.defenseindustrydaily.com
 
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Optimist said:
Believe what you want to believe. I really don't care and was trying to help you. Neither the radar or EOTS looks behind the aircraft. Even the aussie old hornet, could launch missiles at aircraft behind it. It's not magic. However I will give a link, because it was cool at the time.
www.defenseindustrydaily.com

RAAF Kills 'Over the Shoulder' with ASRAAM - Defense Industry Daily

ASRAAM on RAAF F/A-18A(click to view full) Key advances have been made in short-range air-to-air missiles and work well in combination with helmet-mounted sights. The combination of new wide-angle 'staring' seekers, exponential growth in onboard computer processing, 2-way data links, and the...
www.defenseindustrydaily.com
Click to expand...
"If other aircraft sensors can cue the missile to fly to a specific location, which places the enemy within ASRAAM’s target acquisition cone, the missile’s engagement radius can even be extended to a 360 degree circle around the fighter"

I think that is the result of connectivity between fighters. Just like MADL in F-35, this scenario differs from EO-DAS and EOTS.
 
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