Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

RISING SUN said:
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If that would had happened in today's time, so many essays would have been written by now how much of the failure US faced in these famous machines back in those days...

 
RISING SUN said:
If that would had happened in today's time, so many essays would have been written by now how much of the failure US faced in these famous machines back in those days...

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Later he died while in a F14 flight.

 
Nobody bothers with crashed jets during development. The F-35 is criticized because they built 1000 of them without FOC. Even if the F-14 crashed 10 times, they would have never started building it before certification.

And it's because common sense was lost during the F-35 era, and they are fixing it with NGAD, and this is something the people in power already say.

Kendall vows Air Force NGAD program won’t repeat ‘serious mistake’ associated with the F-35

The Air Force is moving forward in its quest to acquire sixth-generation stealth fighter jets. In doing so, it won’t be taking the same approach that led to problems with the fifth-generation F-35, Frank Kendall told reporters.
defensescoop.com
“We’re not going to repeat the — what I think, quite frankly, was a serious mistake that was made in the F-35 program of doing something which … came from an era which we had something called ‘total system performance.’ And the theory then was when a contractor won a program, they owned the program [and] it was going to do the whole lifecycle of the program … What that basically does is create a perpetual monopoly. And I spent years struggling to overcome acquisition malpractice, and we’re still struggling with that to some degree,” Secretary of the Air Force Frank Kendall told reporters during a Defense Writers Group meeting.

“We’re not going to do that with NGAD. We’re gonna make sure that the government has ownership of the intellectual property it needs. We’re gonna make sure we’re also making sure we have modular designs with open systems so that going forward, we can bring new suppliers in … and we’ll have a much tighter degree of government control over particularly that program than we’ve had” in the past, he added.

Lots more in the article.

It's only the ignorant who would try and find equivalence with a fighter jet and a total systemic failure of an entire procurement system. Nobody was complaining about the F-14's procurement system and how it was a mistake.

This is the same reason why Indian forces and MoD want the govt to hold the full IPR of the weapons systems they plan on spending big bucks on or why they want as much ToT as possible for imported systems.

The F-35 isn't bad, the problem is everything around it is messed up. Had the F-35 been fully govt-owned, as Kendall would have liked, it wouldn't have faced more than half the problems it did. For example, JPO would have correctly identified the time it would take to test the software and come up with a new procurement plan back when it first started flying. LM just wanted to keep making money, and they took full advantage of the sunk-cost fallacy and suckered a whole bunch of countries while doing it. Another example is LM had always known about the engine problem since 15 years, they just didn't care to do anything about it, or it was most definitely gonna get canceled at that point.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program facing 'significant issues'… again!
Australians wake up to F-35 problems
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randomradio said:
72 IOC models, not bad.

The Swiss, Finnish and Canadians (and whoever comes next) are the only ones who will operate a fleet of 100% B4 jets with new engines. Lucky them.
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Why quote a clickbait blog? A story from the same news conference.

“It’s a complicated process,” Steve Over, Lockheed Martin’s director of international F-35 business, says.

Australia has accepted 63 of its 72 aircraft, but the remaining aircraft are being completed to Tech Refresh 3 (TR3) standard up to mid 2024.
“Block 4 capability upgrades are planned in Australia from 2025. These will enhance the Australian Defence Force’s ability to conduct long-range strike and electronic warfare missions, which will include advanced communications to improve interoperability with partners.”

According to the latest figures released by Defence, Australian industry has also benefited from the F-35 program to the tune of $3.7bn, with more than 70 local companies winning global production and sustainment contracts.
 
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Optimist said:
Why quote a clickbait blog? A story from the same news conference.

“It’s a complicated process,” Steve Over, Lockheed Martin’s director of international F-35 business, says.

Australia has accepted 63 of its 72 aircraft, but the remaining aircraft are being completed to Tech Refresh 3 (TR3) standard up to mid 2024.
“Block 4 capability upgrades are planned in Australia from 2025. These will enhance the Australian Defence Force’s ability to conduct long-range strike and electronic warfare missions, which will include advanced communications to improve interoperability with partners.”

According to the latest figures released by Defence, Australian industry has also benefited from the F-35 program to the tune of $3.7bn, with more than 70 local companies winning global production and sustainment contracts.
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That's not it. Every new Australian squadron is different from the previous due to the changes made to each Lot. This should never have happened to the partners at the very least. Upgrading older jets doesn't mean it's going to give you all the capabilities that a new build would provide.

Kendall says the same thing.

Kendall vows Air Force NGAD program won’t repeat ‘serious mistake’ associated with the F-35

The Air Force is moving forward in its quest to acquire sixth-generation stealth fighter jets. In doing so, it won’t be taking the same approach that led to problems with the fifth-generation F-35, Frank Kendall told reporters.
defensescoop.com
The F-35 also went into production too soon, Kendall said, and as a result “a lot” of design changes had to be made after production had already started. The overlap of development and production, an acquisition approach known as “concurrency,” has been blamed for some of that program’s woes.

If not all jets are up to the same standards, you are gonna face some critical capability and sustainment issues. Hence my quip about IOC standards.

And--

Australia Starts Looking Beyond The F-35 For Next-Gen Fighter Needs | Aviation Week Network

Next-generation fighters will be available when Australia searches for a replacement for a squadron of Boeing F/A-18E/Fs in the mid-2030s.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com

It doesn't speak for the F-35A when the RAAF has now decided to get a new jet instead. So NGAD, NgAD or GCAP? Whatever the case, it appears the F-35A needs a complement.
 
Hydra said:
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As predicted, we will soon have to decide between the Su-57M/M2 and F-35A B4/5 (or NGAD). Or both.

Very likely a dog and pony show for the Su-57. The IAF will use supercruise and customizable avionics as an excuse, even if there's no ToT or local production expected for either jet.
 
randomradio said:
In terms of stealth, all three jets are in a similar space. In terms of performance, range and payload, the Su-57M and J-20B will outstrip the F-22. In terms of maintenance, all three are likely a b!tch to maintain, but the two newer jets may have some more advantages considering they are newer. So, even if the avionics are older, they have the potential to catch up. It's very difficult to say though. A newer airframe design always has advantages over an older design. For example, the F-22 needs an IRST, 360 deg EODAS, a patrol link and a 360 deg multi-band ECM with towed decoys, all currently missing. And what if the other two jets have built-in DEW capabilities? It's impossible to say these things 'cause we can't quantify it like the other parameters.

Plus, unlike the Americans, the other two are coming out with new versions.

While the F-22 is a reality today, the other two are pretty close anyway. By 2027, the US may have to deal with 200+ J-20Bs over Taiwan for example, giving the Chinese parity or even superiority over some 80-100 F-22s. Whereas the Americans aren't interested in fighting Russia, it's a future EU problem.

From India's perspective, we are not fighting the US, and any Su-57 choice, if made, will come with Indian avionics. So it works out for all of us.
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The Russians have some issues regarding material sciences. It's same with the Chinese but the f-35 espionage situation really helped them. J-20 is made for a pacific war while the f-22 is made for Atlantic/European and Middle Eastern theatres. The su-57 is the middle ground but it's pretty clear f-22 still has the best RCS out of all three. A lot of Chinese specs turn out to be bs so I won't comment on the capabilities of the j-20 but su-57 does have LO RCS just not vlo.
 
The problem with @Optimist is that he is confoundingly naive: While I was able to predict back in 2014 that the F-35 would not be ready to carry out all the missions in its specification until 2031, at a time when Lockheed Martin was declaring that this capability would be achieved in 2018, @Optimist is hoping that Australia will have a Block 4 upgrade in 2025.

If we are realistic, all we can hope for in 2025 is to finally have a TR3 that works and therefore the start of the integration of software developed under TR2 into TR3. Let me remind you that the integration of block 2B, which ran under TR1, into TR2 took a year to produce a working block 3I, and that we then had to work on 3F for several years.

And yet the complexity of Block 2B is nothing like that of Block 3F, which now has to be ported, so it will take much longer than a year. And when all this is finished, we'll have to move on from Block 3F to Block 4, which is currently under development and is one year behind schedule every year.

And even if, by some miracle, this were to come on stream quickly, we would still have a block 4 with the capabilities that have been developed, but which we would not be able to operate simultaneously, because this will only be possible with more cooling capacity and more electrical power, both of which will only be available with the engine upgrade officially scheduled for 2029.

And do you think that of the thousands of F-35s to be updated, Australia's will be given priority?
 
Lolwa said:
The Russians have some issues regarding material sciences. It's same with the Chinese but the f-35 espionage situation really helped them. J-20 is made for a pacific war while the f-22 is made for Atlantic/European and Middle Eastern theatres. The su-57 is the middle ground but it's pretty clear f-22 still has the best RCS out of all three. A lot of Chinese specs turn out to be bs so I won't comment on the capabilities of the j-20 but su-57 does have LO RCS just not vlo.
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The Russians have the best tech when it comes to materials, overall. Specifically, like in aircraft engines, they are only a little bit behind the Americans. Their stealth tech is also fine, and the Su-57 is VLO.

The Su-57 isn't as stealthy as the FGFA, because the IAF's requirement was different, but the Su-57 is now in its M transition and by the time we buy one, we could be seeing an M2. Their two-seat version is also gonna be more stealthy. So you can't compare the F-22's dead concept of stealth to the evolving concept the Russians have introduced. The J-20 is also going through such transitions. So no point in underestimating them.

The Su-57 very likely has more range than the J-20. At least double that of the MKI.
 
Where to start with this Klown Klub?
Australia is the Indo-Pacific hub. All updates with be done in Australia and probably for others too.
Block 4 update is from 2025. It will be a full block 4.
The Super Hornets may be replaced with 6th gen mid 30's..Pretty cool?
 
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Optimist said:
Where to start with this Klown Klub?
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Let's start by addressing the klown first. And I'll go first:

Optimist said:
Australia is the Indo-Pacific hub. All updates with be done in Australia and probably for others too.
Block 4 update is from 2025. It will be a full block 4.
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What has been proposed is the TR-3 hardware upgrade from 2025. B4 will be ready only by 2029, tentative, before it trickles down to the partners.

Optimist said:
The Super Hornets may be replaced with 6th gen mid 30's..Pretty cool?
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The plan was for the F-35 to replace it, but RAAF's gonna spend money to upgrade the SH instead and wait for a better jet. Not a really good advertisement for the F-35.
 
randomradio said:
Let's start by addressing the klown first. And I'll go first:

What has been proposed is the TR-3 hardware upgrade from 2025. B4 will be ready only by 2029, tentative, before it trickles down to the partners.

The plan was for the F-35 to replace it, but RAAF's gonna spend money to upgrade the SH instead and wait for a better jet. Not a really good advertisement for the F-35.
Click to expand...

Though block 4 won't be finished till 2030. Block 4 software is already being installed and has been for some years. It is rolled out to everyone at the same time, there is no 'trickly down'

It's a better advertisement than the French subs and helicopters. We aren't dumping the F-35.
We are keeping the F-35 and of course the US 6th gen will be better.
Though I will hear about the 'soon to be made' Super Rafale till I die. SCAF is already dead. The same as the French-German maritime patrol ASW aircraft

As I said a few pages ago....
Optimist said:
I'll leave you to your delusion. There is no talking sense to you.
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Optimist said:
Though block 4 won't be finished till 2030. Block 4 software is already being installed and has been for some years. It is rolled out to everyone at the same time, there is no 'trickly down'

It's a better advertisement than the French subs and helicopters. We aren't dumping the F-35.
We are keeping the F-35 and of course the US 6th gen will be better.
Though I will hear about the 'soon to be made' Super Rafale till I die. SCAF is already dead. The same as the French-German maritime patrol ASW aircraft
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It doesn't change the fact that RAF F-35s are all IOC models with just a B4 upgrade.

And there is no Super Rafale, it's in lieu of NGF.

Optimist said:
As I said a few pages ago....
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You are just projecting.
Optimist said:
Though block 4 won't be finished till 2030. Block 4 software is already being installed and has been for some years. It is rolled out to everyone at the same time, there is no 'trickly down'

It's a better advertisement than the French subs and helicopters. We aren't dumping the F-35.
We are keeping the F-35 and of course the US 6th gen will be better.
Though I will hear about the 'soon to be made' Super Rafale till I die. SCAF is already dead. The same as the French-German maritime patrol ASW aircraft
Click to expand...

It doesn't change the fact that RAF F-35s are all IOC models with just a B4 upgrade.

And there is no Super Rafale, it's in lieu of NGF.

Optimist said:
As I said a few pages ago....
Click to expand...

You are just projecting.
 
randomradio said:
As predicted, we will soon have to decide between the Su-57M/M2 and F-35A B4/5 (or NGAD). Or both.

Very likely a dog and pony show for the Su-57. The IAF will use supercruise and customizable avionics as an excuse, even if there's no ToT or local production expected for either jet.
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IAF made it clear multiple times before that, mmrca will be the last foreign aircraft they gonna induct.
 
Hydra said:
IAF made it clear multiple times before that, mmrca will be the last foreign aircraft they gonna induct.
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Normally, yes. But there's room for a stopgap purchase to make up for critical deficiencies. We have room for 2-3 squadrons of a more advanced jet.

The next frontier for imports will be near/spaceplanes and stealth bombers. Even next gen helicopters and transports. So our import story is nowhere close to the end.
 
Hydra said:
IAF made it clear multiple times before that, mmrca will be the last foreign aircraft they gonna induct.
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Believe me we are never going to stop inducting foreign fighters. Because gap is too huge. We don't have a indigenous heavy fighter, neither a medium fighter. We neither have bombers.
We are going to import su-57 and f-35 and fcas too. F-35 may not be a reality but the other two will be. At best we will have a "Tejas mk3" and AMCA. Tedbf is an outdated design. Not going for iwb's on tedbf will be another insas moment. Why are we making another rafale when we can make a combination of rafale-superhornet-f-35c?? The Chinese already have j-35 and it will be superior to the f-35 in a naval scenario.
 
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