Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

[Austerlitz]

Mig29UPG does not have aesa radar.
As a matter of fact, N011M bars for MKI outranges the N010m Zhuk-M of the M29 UPG.

N011M Bars: N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km.[4] Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track while scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets.

Zhuk M N010M: The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air-to-air mode. In air-to-surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once.

I haven't seen the exact irbis radar on offer, but I do remember Phazatron Zhuk AM Aesa radar being on offer for MKI upgrade which IAF categorically rejected and then the same was offered for the LCA radar. Irbis-E snow leopard is an excellent radar, but not an Aesa so there is no possibility that it will be used by IAF.

Most likely, Russians will part with their closely held NIIP's Byelka AESA radar as an MKI upgrade down the road.

I meant the aesa D29 EW suite of the mig29,not its radar.This makes it formidable against enemy bvr.
Byelka may not be fully ready yet.For immediate needs we should get irbis on 3 squadrons,would be cheaper as russians already integrating al41 and irbis on su30sm and immediately checkmate chinese buildup of su35 and j11d ,keeping the rafales for 5th gen.These 3 sq should ve the oldest models with least life left.The bulk of the fleet can then be upgraded with aesa as necessary and possible.

 

[randomradio]

Are you refering to the AL-41FP? Also, are the air intakes also being redesigned? If so, by how much would it reduce the RCS of the MKI?
Any other structural redesigns in yhe Super Sukhoi upgrade...
@randomradio

There is no AL-41FP, you must be referring to AL-41F1S, it's better to simply call it 117S. Our MKIs currently use AL-31FP.

Inlet modifications are not required, but we may see the use of composites and possibly even blockers.

Dunno what's the RCS goal or other structural designs planned. I hope the airbrakes are removed, like they did on Su-35. That way we get an extra ton of internal fuel.

 

[randomradio]

Mig29UPG does not have aesa radar.
As a matter of fact, N011M bars for MKI outranges the N010m Zhuk-M of the M29 UPG.

N011M Bars: N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km.[4] Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track while scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets.

Zhuk M N010M: The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air-to-air mode. In air-to-surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once.

I haven't seen the exact irbis radar on offer, but I do remember Phazatron Zhuk AM Aesa radar being on offer for MKI upgrade which IAF categorically rejected and then the same was offered for the LCA radar. Irbis-E snow leopard is an excellent radar, but not an Aesa so there is no possibility that it will be used by IAF.

Most likely, Russians will part with their closely held NIIP's Byelka AESA radar as an MKI upgrade down the road.

According to the Russians, they will develop a more advanced radar than the Byelka for the MKI.

 

[Parthu]

It's not up to the Russians,

but we most definitely need Russian help to install it because of the significant weight difference between Bars and other radars.

The two statements are contradictory. And somehow, I very much doubt Russians will let us go through with UTTAM*.

We tend to overestimate the leeway we're likely to get with Russian platforms. Doing this will effectively shut the door on Tikhomirov for any future Indian market.

* It doesn't mean Russians will form a circle around each MKI preventing LRDE guys from going in...but they will simply say, that if you install this radar - then we can no longer provide airworthiness guarantee for that aircraft.

According to the Russians, they will develop a more advanced radar than the Byelka for the MKI.

In 10 years from now?

 

[Milspec]

According to the Russians, they will develop a more advanced radar than the Byelka for the MKI.

Unless the Israelis beat them to the punch. ELM 2052 ain't no slouch.

 

[randomradio]

I meant the aesa D29 EW suite of the mig29,not its radar.This makes it formidable against enemy bvr.
Byelka may not be fully ready yet.For immediate needs we should get irbis on 3 squadrons,would be cheaper as russians already integrating al41 and irbis on su30sm and immediately checkmate chinese buildup of su35 and j11d ,keeping the rafales for 5th gen.These 3 sq should ve the oldest models with least life left.The bulk of the fleet can then be upgraded with aesa as necessary and possible.

Byelka is already on the road to FOC.

It's better to wait for an AESA, or else all the MKIs upgraded in the first phase will get stuck with a PESA all the way to 2040. So a 2-year delay now will mean AESA for the next 20 years. Of course, it may not pan out that way and we may be forced to go for the Irbis-E.

In the meantime, the LCA Mk1A and a second tranche of Rafales will give us nearly 150 air defence jets with AESA by 2026. Those 72 Rafales alone will destroy our entire MKI fleet. Even the Mk1A equipped with the Derby ER can wipe out our currently configured MKIs when playing defence. So I'm not particularly worried on the AESA front when it comes to the air force as a whole.

There's another interesting option that's possibly more realistic. If the IAF accepts the 117S for fleetwide installation, a large number of MKIs that are due for an engine change can have the operational Bars radar upgraded to Irbis-E standards without interfering with the MLU package, which can be a separate process.

Btw, the MLU program will likely be 5 years long after signature. And the first phase may take as much as 7 years to finish.

 

[Milspec]

The two statements are contradictory. And somehow, I very much doubt Russians will let us go through with UTTAM*.

We tend to overestimate the leeway we're likely to get with Russian platforms. Doing this will effectively shut the door on Tikhomirov for any future Indian market.

* It doesn't mean Russians will form a circle around each MKI preventing LRDE guys from going in...but they will simply say, that if you install this radar - then we can no longer provide airworthiness guarantee for that aircraft.



In 10 years from now?

Air Worthiness is granted by Cemillac/DGQA not Russia.
Where they can turn the knobs on India is disrupting the spares and consumables for MKI and M29 fleet.

Also, this is not a fight, the idea is to get Russians onboard and not antagonize them. Remember, Russia still remains the destinations for the most cost-effective frontline systems, whether it's for the Army, Navy or the Air force. They are also the best suppliers for gaining favourable terms, look at the Chinese and how they got license production for a bunch of Russian systems. If India and Russia can co-develop a X band Aesa system with multple Antenae for Mig29/MKI/MKI/PAKFA, that would the be the ideal suite for IAF/IN.

 

[Parthu]

Air Worthiness is granted by Cemillac/DGQA not Russia.

And Russia provides no guarantee under obligation?

Of this sort I mean: ‘Rafale deal under UPA collapsed as Hindustan Aeronautics could not provide guarantee’: Sitharaman

 

[Milspec]

And Russia provides no guarantee under obligation?

Certain warranty features, the decision to buy the aircraft if of MoD based on it's evaluation. But there is no specific FoC or certification carried out by the supplier as per IAF requirements. Mig29 and MKI neither of them went through any such IoC/FoC programs. Mig 23's/27/21's were another case altogether where it did not even go through the official evaluation- user trials. Evaluations were conducted after buying the system.

 

[Austerlitz]

Air Worthiness is granted by Cemillac/DGQA not Russia.
Where they can turn the knobs on India is disrupting the spares and consumables for MKI and M29 fleet.

Also, this is not a fight, the idea is to get Russians onboard and not antagonize them. Remember, Russia still remains the destinations for the most cost-effective frontline systems, whether it's for the Army, Navy or the Air force. They are also the best suppliers for gaining favourable terms, look at the Chinese and how they got license production for a bunch of Russian systems. If India and Russia can co-develop a X band Aesa system with multple Antenae for Mig29/MKI/MKI/PAKFA, that would the be the ideal suite for IAF/IN.

I dont think IAF has the money to get 36 more rafales, upgrade its air defence grid,get 83 lca mk1a and upgrade sukhois at the same time.Plus 18 su and 21 mig29 agreed upon.Add to that huge helicopter acquisitions.MMRCA 2 is a pipe dream.
Imo lca mk1a and sukhoi upgrade should be priority.Air defence grid upgrades are already underway.No need to go crazy on helicopters further,keep expenditure on helos to minimum.No point having a 100 lch and mi17 if we dont have sufficient fighters to protect them.
So go slow on helos,progress with air defence,get the 2 emergency mig and su squadrons,83 lca mk1a on priority basis.And whatever is left of budget invest in mini upgrade of few mki squadrons with irbis,maws,new pod,al41 and k77m.
Rest deep upgrade as russian aesa matures.

Simply scrap mmrca 2.0,no money.Instead after current batch is finished order 36 more rafale,but this time F4 version which enters service 2024-25.
Then induct post 2025 Tejas mwf.

 

[Parthu]

Certain warranty features, the decision to buy the aircraft if of MoD based on it's evaluation. But there is no specific FoC or certification carried out by the supplier as per IAF requirements. Mig29 and MKI neither of them went through any such IoC/FoC programs. Mig 23's/27/21's were another case altogether where it did not even go through the official evaluation- user trials. Evaluations were conducted after buying the system.

So we're okay with it if Russia says that Sukhoi/UAC can in no way be held responsible if anything at all goes wrong with the HAL-built jet?

This was exactly the kind of clause that played a part in sinking the MMRCA 1.0 tender.

 

[Milspec]

So we're okay with it if Russia says that Sukhoi/UAC can in no way be held responsible if anything at all goes wrong with the HAL-built jet?

This was exactly the kind of clause that played a part in sinking the MMRCA 1.0 tender.

It's a complex question. Is UAC trying to be a partner or are they trying to hoodwink you?, if there is an inherent design issue is UAC helping to fix it? If it's a manufacturing build quality of HAL, Russia can provide the quality qualifications, but it cannot guarantee that HAL is carrying out its due diligence, in those cases HAL too has to get behind it's own processes which it does with MKI all the time. We need to transition from a user-supplier model to co-developing/partner model in the defence sphere.

It's kind of similar to Mahindra's cars when you have a Mhawk engine failure you should really not be blaming Pegeuot for it. Mahindra selected it, did the tech transfer, licensed it, and then sold it, so Mahindra too should have it's skin in the game, as it does. Same goes for HAL.

Like for ALH, HAL guarantees a x percentage of Service rate, I don't remember the exact number, maybe @randomradio can pull that, HAL should do the same with MKI's too.

 

[Sathya]

Mirage upgrade last news 19 upgraded.
Seems like we are doing 10 per year at least.
Sukoi last batch production is going on since how many years??
Guess upgradation will begin after the production ends.
Tejas mk1 foc hopefully we ll make 8 per year..

So per year at least
Mirage upgrade 8
New su 30 mki 8
Tejas mk1 8

Get s. In.

 

[randomradio]

The two statements are contradictory. And somehow, I very much doubt Russians will let us go through with UTTAM*.

What I said is, it's up to us what radar we choose, but the Russians will have to flight test and certify it regardless.

We tend to overestimate the leeway we're likely to get with Russian platforms. Doing this will effectively shut the door on Tikhomirov for any future Indian market.

That's okay. Some win, some lose. If NIIP can't deliver, we will obviously look elsewhere.

As a rule, we buy from the OEM. But this rule is discarded when it suits the purpose.

* It doesn't mean Russians will form a circle around each MKI preventing LRDE guys from going in...but they will simply say, that if you install this radar - then we can no longer provide airworthiness guarantee for that aircraft.

It's true, they can do that. But they actually won't do that. Take MAWS for example, they have their own stuff but we have no pressure on us to use their stuff. Same with IRST. We have our own independent program for it. Look at the Kilo class upgrades, pretty much everything important inside is Indian.

In 10 years from now?

Nobody knows where they are with respect to AESA for the Flankers. I think their main goal is to make the PAK FA more attractive for export customers than provide all of PAK FA's advanced goods on a Flanker package. Never mind the fact that someone has to pay to develop an AESA radar for the Flanker, and the Russians do not really care to have one right now, they are very happy with the Su-35 upgrade package. They are likely waiting for India to pay for the next set of upgrades and then they will follow suit to upgrade their own jets with the same package, like they did with Su-30SM.

Air Worthiness is granted by Cemillac/DGQA not Russia.

OEM certification for air worthiness is far more important. Any modifications without OEM approval makes all OEM related certifications null and void. OEM will stop supporting those aircraft.

Unless the Israelis beat them to the punch. ELM 2052 ain't no slouch.

It's going to be irrelevant to the MKI. My bet is IAF will go Russian only, regardless of whether it's AESA or PESA.

Plus the 2052 is not ITAR free, so the Americans will have to agree to installing it on the MKI.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Nobody knows where they are with respect to AESA for the Flankers. I think their main goal is to make the PAK FA more attractive for export customers than provide all of PAK FA's advanced goods on a Flanker package. Never mind the fact that someone has to pay to develop an AESA radar for the Flanker, and the Russians do not really care to have one right now, they are very happy with the Su-35 upgrade package. They are likely waiting for India to pay for the next set of upgrades and then they will follow suit to upgrade their own jets with the same package, like they did with Su-30SM.

What's the make & specs of the AESA radar that's gone into their Su-30SM & why can't we use it ? Further what about the EW package , IRST, MAWS & RWR package? Are we still dependant on the Russians or has DARE come good on it?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

IAF's Future is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

 

[randomradio]

Like for ALH, HAL guarantees a x percentage of Service rate, I don't remember the exact number, maybe @randomradio can pull that, HAL should do the same with MKI's too.

60-75% PBL based on how much money you can fork up. But this is yet to be offered to the armed forces. Only the coast guard has benefited from this. It's relatively new for India.

As for MKI, they are already working towards that. It wasn't offered before because it couldn't be done without Russian involvement. Now they are setting up a logistics center which will provide spares consistently. The spares hub will guarantee PBL for 75%. Even other countries will be able to tap this source.

 

[randomradio]

What's the make & specs of the AESA radar that's gone into their Su-30SM & why can't we use it ?

Their SM uses the same Bars radar. Their radar is called Bars-R, and is slightly more advanced since it's 15+ years newer. Exact differences are unknown.

Further what about the EW package , IRST, MAWS & RWR package? Are we still dependant on the Russians or has DARE come good on it?

IRST is yet to be made, it's Russian right now. But there's a more advanced IRST planned. DARE MAWS with Israeli tech failed, they are still trying to salvage it if possible. There is a second MAWS developed with Germany, let's see what happens there. RWR is Indian, and MKI will soon be getting a newly designed next gen RWR. None of these upcoming technologies have anything to do with Russia.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Their SM uses the same Bars radar. Their radar is called Bars-R, and is slightly more advanced since it's 15+ years newer. Exact differences are unknown.



IRST is yet to be made, it's Russian right now. But there's a more advanced IRST planned. DARE MAWS with Israeli tech failed, they are still trying to salvage it if possible. There is a second MAWS developed with Germany, let's see what happens there. RWR is Indian, and MKI will soon be getting a newly designed next gen RWR. None of these upcoming technologies have anything to do with Russia.

It seems the new radar is a PESA radar too, isn't it?


We're talking about the Super Sukhoi upgrade and plans to power it with Indian avionics when half the bloody systems aren't ready & the MLU long overdue. What sort of a sick joke is this?

 

[randomradio]

It seems the new radar is a PESA radar too, isn't it?

For the MLU? Likely PESA, but too early to tell.

We're talking about the Super Sukhoi upgrade and plans to power it with Indian avionics when half the bloody systems aren't ready & the MLU long overdue. What sort of a sick joke is this?

The first phase alone will take 6 to 7 years to finish after signature. Check post 246.