We don't need F-16s. But then, by the time they become available, we will be able to afford second hand F-16s. But I think 2 are enough, we don't need multiple squadrons.
The FA-50 can simulate the JF-17 and M-2000 already simulates J-10.
Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
We don't need F-16s. But then, by the time they become available, we will be able to afford second hand F-16s. But I think 2 are enough, we don't need multiple squadrons.
The FA-50 can simulate the JF-17 and M-2000 already simulates J-10.
The Central Govt can and Will Finance
Only a Fixed Dollar Expenditure which is known as Govt Account
This includes Oil purchase
Defence expenditure , other purchases
Of Goods and Services
made by GOI and PSU companies
Repayment of loans and NRI deposits
The Other imports and Loans taken by private companies are financed by Private
Parties themselves
@Milspec
Central Govt has to make full estimate
Of Dollar liabilities for the year
But in addition to that if the there is a Sudden appreciation in value of Dollar
Due to Increase in US interest rates
As we saw last year
Then RBI will have to provide dollars for
Importers also , to prevent Rupee from going into a Free fall
Bottom line being Central Govt cannot
Spare more than 20 Billion USD in Foreign currency for Defence - ie
Maximum Total
Amount For Both Capital and Revenue expenditure
Ammunition and Spares are Revenue expenditure
Central Govt has to make full estimate
Of Dollar liabilities for the year
But in addition to that if the there is a Sudden appreciation in value of Dollar
Due to Increase in US interest rates
As we saw last year
Then RBI will have to provide dollars for
Importers also , to prevent Rupee from going into a Free fall
Bottom line being Central Govt cannot
Spare more than 20 Billion USD in Foreign currency for Defence - ie
Maximum Total
Amount For Both Capital and Revenue expenditure
Ammunition and Spares are Revenue expenditure
And how is that different from any other allocation, also this Government Account, how is it related to the availability of dollars, did you by any chance mean forex FCA by the available dollars, if not and just the allocated dollar value associated, given capex that too for imports is tiny compared to the overall defence budget, I still cannot gauge the importance of available dollars?
India is Dollar Deficient Nation
We have a Current Account Deficit
And NOT a Surplus like China
So we have to cater for all Dollar expenses
The Irony is that Private parties import Gold
Worth 50 Billion USD
But our Total dollar Expenditure on Defence
Will not exceed even 25 Billion even in a Crisis year like current Financial year
If we have to spend more for Rapid
modernisaton , Then GOI will have to take
Loans from Foreign Commercial banks
The only way to Rapidly modernise our
Armed Forces is to Control Three other
Major heads
Ie Oil , Gold and Electronics
Here too Gold is the most Useless import
If we can save 10 billion USD from other imports , only then we can see Rapid Modernisation , ie we can import more equipment to phase out the old and Antiquated equipment
People Criticise DPSUs and OFBs
But without them , our Dollar Expenses on Defence would go up several times
We will have to import everything like GCC countries
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No, that's not how it works. States make their own money separate from the centre.
Statues are being built mostly using state money.
States makes statues which in turn creates direct and indirect jobs for millions, creates a flowing economy for several decades. One need to understand that the statues we are talking is not the one like Madam Maya's.
So we can go for approaches to skip dollars like we are planning to do for S400?
The rupee-ruble trade makes Russian equipment much more lucrative.
The best option is using the rupee of course. And the least desirable is dollars. But that's also why we try and produce at home so that the dollar outflow is lesser even if the end product is more expensive than the imported one.
So can we apply the same with France for scorpian, MMRCA2.0 and civil nuclear agreement at jaitpura?
The French deals are not like the ones with Russia.
MII deal for more Scorpene and Rafales, yes. At least 50% according to DPP. And this will slowly rise to 80-90%, maybe even higher.
GTG Rafales, no. It's all forex.
Jaitapur, unlikely, the reactors will come from France. But I don't know how much in both volume and percentage though, since reactors are only a part of the actual contract.
Well welcome to the club, but then I recommend IAF or manufacturers official infos and not wiki. Official infos like this:
IAF
HAL
@randomradio
Posting from the other thread before Ashwin and Nair get after us for trolling the thread there
That is what you have not been getting - both the times the HAL came up with claims of providing equipment in-house. And they messed up.
Quoting:
From 2014:
"The IAF initiated the process of upgrading the Jaguars in 2009 to bring a fleet of 61 aircraft to DARIN (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation III) standards."
and
"The first prototype of an upgraded Jaguar, made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, started flying in November 2012, but the results were far from satisfactory. The IAF had hoped the upgraded Jaguar would get initial operational clearance by December 2012. However, the deadline was missed because the prototype could not meet expectations.
Sources said the design and development aspects of the upgraded aircraft did not match with what was intended. As a result of the glitches, the schedule for completing the programme has gone haywire.
The IAF will not have an upgraded fleet of Jaguars even by 2019 now. It was earlier planned that the series upgrade would be completed by December 2017. The delay has come as a setback for the IAF, which is struggling to halt a slide in its fighter squadron strength."
Source: Indian Air Force plans to upgrade ageing Jaguars hits roadblock
From 2018:
"The HAL was to produce 222 Sukhoi jets under licence from Russia and the final delivery was to be given by 2017. As on date, 25 of the jets are yet to be delivered and the Air Force may get these only by 2020, making it a three-year delay, says a review that has been brought to the notice of all top MoD officials over the past four weeks.
The biggest delay is in making Tejas. Twenty of these jets—IOC (initial operational clearance) version—should have been delivered by May 2017, but the IAF only got 10.
The situation on the helicopter front is no better. The delivery of 38 advanced light helicopter (ALH) Mark-III version and 16 copters of ALH Mk-IV version, contracted in 2007, were completed only last year, four years behind the planned full delivery schedule of 2013.
The upgrade of fighter jets is another sorry state of affairs. Forty-seven Mirage 2000 jets were to be upgraded at a cost of Rs 2,020 crore (the contract was signed in 2011). Only six aircraft have been upgraded to date against the target of 21.
The Rs 3,113-crore project to upgrade the 61-plane Jaguar fleet to Darin-III standards has been delayed by six years; it’s likely to be completed by 2023-24. There are similar delays in Dornier transport planes and intermediate jet and HTT-40 basic trainers."
Source: HAL misses jet upgrade target
From Jan 2019:
"Production delays by state run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have seriously impacted air combat strength, particularly when it comes to its Mirage 2000 and Jaguar fighter fleets that are currently undergoing upgrades, the air force has informed the government."
Source: Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt
The problem is not of IAF not undertaking timely actions for upgrades, the problem is the sheer mismanagement at HAL-DRDO-MoD levels. The analogy of P-8s is absolutely incorrect because then you shall have to consider it with the C-17 and C-130s and not any other aircraft. In all three cases, the clauses incorporated by OEM is that upgrade/modification/deep maintenance will be undertaken only by the OEM otherwise all guarantees and warranties stand null and void. This is the result of negotiations undertaken by OEM with MoD - not IAF. Where OEM was not insistent, MoD has cut down on costs by going for underarmed/underperforming platforms in name of cost (like T-90 Contract which called for removal of original Shtora and Kontakt; paying additional to remove refuelling pods from Mirage-2000 only to get them re-installed later, not allocating funds for equipment maintenance for equipment purchased under Army Commander's Special Finanacial Powers leading to equipment being rendered unserviceable after a short use as no funds to maintain it etc)
Similarly, for Phalcon AWACS. The GoI and MoD were insistent only on 03 AWACS even though Air Force had projected a demand for 07 or thereabouts. Reasons were - no money. Similarly, HAL-ADA-DRDO came up with proposal to make AWACS in house. So the GoI stopped further acquisition inspite of requirement of immediate procurement being projected to them by IAF. The problem is not of timely projection or perspective planning, but of the Government stalling procurement till as such time indigenous systems come online. That, sir, is the main reason for the sorry state of affairs.
On DRDO-HAL-ADA: instead of mobilizing their resources in developing technology in one field, they have tried to get into everything at once, thereby dividing their resources. Example of the Project LCA. They have still not been able to ramp up their production capacity, which was something that they should have done by consolidating their own resources into one field in order to meet orders. That would enable them to field a platform next week, instead of next decade. The problem which comes to fore is poor foresight, poor project management and execution of operations. The slow production rate, in this dynamic environment, will result in IAF again upgrading requirements in next 3 years, leading to a situation wherein they will again cry 'mid-course correction'.
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@randomradio
Posting from the other thread before Ashwin and Nair get after us for trolling the thread there
That is what you have not been getting - both the times the HAL came up with claims of providing equipment in-house. And they messed up.
Quoting:
From 2014:
"The IAF initiated the process of upgrading the Jaguars in 2009 to bring a fleet of 61 aircraft to DARIN (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation III) standards."
and
"The first prototype of an upgraded Jaguar, made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, started flying in November 2012, but the results were far from satisfactory. The IAF had hoped the upgraded Jaguar would get initial operational clearance by December 2012. However, the deadline was missed because the prototype could not meet expectations.
Sources said the design and development aspects of the upgraded aircraft did not match with what was intended. As a result of the glitches, the schedule for completing the programme has gone haywire.
The IAF will not have an upgraded fleet of Jaguars even by 2019 now. It was earlier planned that the series upgrade would be completed by December 2017. The delay has come as a setback for the IAF, which is struggling to halt a slide in its fighter squadron strength."
Source: Indian Air Force plans to upgrade ageing Jaguars hits roadblock
From 2018:
"The HAL was to produce 222 Sukhoi jets under licence from Russia and the final delivery was to be given by 2017. As on date, 25 of the jets are yet to be delivered and the Air Force may get these only by 2020, making it a three-year delay, says a review that has been brought to the notice of all top MoD officials over the past four weeks.
The biggest delay is in making Tejas. Twenty of these jets—IOC (initial operational clearance) version—should have been delivered by May 2017, but the IAF only got 10.
The situation on the helicopter front is no better. The delivery of 38 advanced light helicopter (ALH) Mark-III version and 16 copters of ALH Mk-IV version, contracted in 2007, were completed only last year, four years behind the planned full delivery schedule of 2013.
The upgrade of fighter jets is another sorry state of affairs. Forty-seven Mirage 2000 jets were to be upgraded at a cost of Rs 2,020 crore (the contract was signed in 2011). Only six aircraft have been upgraded to date against the target of 21.
The Rs 3,113-crore project to upgrade the 61-plane Jaguar fleet to Darin-III standards has been delayed by six years; it’s likely to be completed by 2023-24. There are similar delays in Dornier transport planes and intermediate jet and HTT-40 basic trainers."
Source: HAL misses jet upgrade target
From Jan 2019:
"Production delays by state run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have seriously impacted air combat strength, particularly when it comes to its Mirage 2000 and Jaguar fighter fleets that are currently undergoing upgrades, the air force has informed the government."
Source: Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt
The problem is not of IAF not undertaking timely actions for upgrades, the problem is the sheer mismanagement at HAL-DRDO-MoD levels. The analogy of P-8s is absolutely incorrect because then you shall have to consider it with the C-17 and C-130s and not any other aircraft. In all three cases, the clauses incorporated by OEM is that upgrade/modification/deep maintenance will be undertaken only by the OEM otherwise all guarantees and warranties stand null and void. This is the result of negotiations undertaken by OEM with MoD - not IAF. Where OEM was not insistent, MoD has cut down on costs by going for underarmed/underperforming platforms in name of cost (like T-90 Contract which called for removal of original Shtora and Kontakt; paying additional to remove refuelling pods from Mirage-2000 only to get them re-installed later, not allocating funds for equipment maintenance for equipment purchased under Army Commander's Special Finanacial Powers leading to equipment being rendered unserviceable after a short use as no funds to maintain it etc)
Similarly, for Phalcon AWACS. The GoI and MoD were insistent only on 03 AWACS even though Air Force had projected a demand for 07 or thereabouts. Reasons were - no money. Similarly, HAL-ADA-DRDO came up with proposal to make AWACS in house. So the GoI stopped further acquisition inspite of requirement of immediate procurement being projected to them by IAF. The problem is not of timely projection or perspective planning, but of the Government stalling procurement till as such time indigenous systems come online. That, sir, is the main reason for the sorry state of affairs.
On DRDO-HAL-ADA: instead of mobilizing their resources in developing technology in one field, they have tried to get into everything at once, thereby dividing their resources. Example of the Project LCA. They have still not been able to ramp up their production capacity, which was something that they should have done by consolidating their own resources into one field in order to meet orders. That would enable them to field a platform next week, instead of next decade. The problem which comes to fore is poor foresight, poor project management and execution of operations. The slow production rate, in this dynamic environment, will result in IAF again upgrading requirements in next 3 years, leading to a situation wherein they will again cry 'mid-course correction'.
In cases like this you have to nitpick. Everybody is at fault generally speaking.
The govt is at fault for making bad procurement policies.
The Phalcons have a lot of reasons. One was the low availability of quality IL-76 platforms for modification. Money definitely played its part, it was extremely expensive after all. And the Russians were also doing their best to get more than their money's worth.
ADA/DRDO is at fault for delaying LCA development. But development programs can get delayed, that's why there's a plan B, which sadly the IAF does not have.
IAF is at fault for not bringing in capable upgrades to their existing platforms quickly. 20-30 year upgrade cycle should be unacceptable.
And HAL is at fault for delaying upgrades once initiated. Again, IAF is also partly at fault for this since they know that HAL is going to screw up, as they have time and time again, so they should plan upgrades a whole lot faster. Typically an upgrade plan should begin as soon as the first development plan is over. Which means an upgrade plan for MKI should have started by 2006, alongside the Su-35, not after 2015, when the first set of squadrons are on their deathbeds.
MoD and HAL are at fault for screwing up MMRCA. DRDO and HAL are at fault for killing FGFA. IAF is at fault for not working on a plan B. Hell, it's because of Modi that we even got the Rafale GTG.
But when it comes to the MKIs specifically, it's primarily the IAF's fault, followed by the MoD's incompetence in catering to the IAF's needs. The IAF should be bringing in upgrades to the MKI periodically, not once in a blue moon.
Only the IN gets what they want. And in time. Even after all the screwups by shipyards, MoD, DRDO etc. The only area where they are actually struggling in is helicopters, and their only deal, which was very close to signing, was killed off due to the Agusta scam. Even then they bring in upgrades to the existing stuff quickly in order to plug holes. Take the example of delayed minesweepers, they had a plan B with the Australian CLOIS. Even with delayed programs like the Scorpene, they have managed to bring in upgraded Kilos quickly to plug the missile firing gap. And with the Scorpene AIP, they have a plan to bring it in with the first refit, which is only 7 years after commissioning.
=====================
Btw, LCA's production is not slow. The speed of induction you see is how it is for new aircraft. It was 5 years for induction of IOC squadron, and they are gonna achieve it in 5 years and 4-5 months. Even in MMRCA 2.0, the demand for induction of first indigenous squadron is 5-6.5 years after production contract is signed.
The initial delivery of aircraft in FF state from the OEM would commence from T0+ 36 months or earlier and complete by T0+60 months. Delivery of aircraft produced by the SP/ IPA should commence by T0+5 years and complete by T0+12 year. (T0 would be the date of signing of the contract.)
So 5 years to deliver 1 full squadron from OEM's factory. And then the first delivery of indigenous production from the 5th year onwards at 12/year, which would take 1.5 years to stand up a full squadron. So 6.5 years for foreign OEM. HAL did it in 5.5 years with a tighter 5-year schedule, which is remarkable. Now the plan is to raise the second squadron by end 2020, with deliveries starting from October 2019. Along with the modernised Mk1A, the plan is to deliver all 123 jets by 2025. So HAL is sailing a much tighter ship than the foreign OEM will be, who only have to manufacture what they already have.
Oh, really? Like what?
You have got to be joking here now! Seriously? If procurement of aircrafts from a foreign OEM is not a Plan B, then what is?
Show me one place where IAF does the upgrade for the platforms and not the HAL! Just cite one example of IAF doing the upgrade ....
And just how do you plan upgrades faster? Can you shed light on this, when technological evolution is being led by US and Western Nations and IAF sees them and then understands what has to be done? They did that - prospective speculation in Firearms and came out with a Multi-Caliber Weapons requirement in Army, and found exactly one OEM making it. Result - no go.
So how do you propose this?
Bhaiji, IAF DOES NOT undertake any exercise in price negotiations. They only select platform. They put out requirements ... even for P8I, IN wanted the P8A version, MAD is next to useless ..... what happened?
You think forces do not put up their requirements?
You have seriously got to be joking here!
Again, IAF had a plan B!!!!! Who screwed up?
You are talking with absolutely no clue now, seriously.
Get it very clear - IAF has no role in terms and conditions or pricing of platforms. Neither does IA nor IN. Even IN had to go with sub-optimal P8s. Are you aware of the case of INS Jalashwa?
They literally gave it free of cost. With personal weapons. On an as is where is basis. USN personnel were working on the ship till about 1200 hrs their time, then got up, packed their documents and simply left. All weapons, including the CIWS were working. Hot water plumbing and all were top of the line.
Just go visit the ship now. It shall be an eye opener. S-3 are rarely used due to lack of spares and ship is also working below the capability it came with, in terms of crew comfort and the performance. All because GoI did not agree to maintenance by OEM.
Told you, lack of quality airframes. The Phalcons and IL-78s are not based on newly built airframes, they are all refurbished from existing Soviet stocks.
Light - LCA - Plan A
Medium SE - Plan A
Medium TW - Rafale - Plan A || MMRCA 2.0 - Plan A
Heavy stealth - PAK FA/FGFA - Plan A
Medium stealth - AMCA - Plan A
Plan B is basically, "Hope a few of them succeed, and then manage with those".
When it comes to the MMRCA requirement, IAF has been on Plan A since the end 80s. If I were the IAF Chief, I would have asked for the immediate induction of 2 squadrons of M-2000 right after Kargil in parallel with the MRCA program. If you recall, we bought just 10 jets with the old configuration. We should have instead bought 40 with the new configuration, this would qualify as Plan B. Modi is practically doing the same thing now.
The IN did the same with the second batch of Talwar class after Shivalik got delayed.
I think you are confused between actually asking for the upgrade and the one doing the upgrade. I never said IAF should physically upgrade aircraft by themselves. But they should be the one configuring the jet by having discussions with the OEM, which in this case happens to be the Russians.
By developing the next set of upgrades as soon as the MKI started deliveries.
For example, the Russians have already initiated development for the next set of upgrades meant for Su-30SM and Su-35. And this is while they are inducting these jets. The Rafale is also always in development. They finish one and start a new one immediately after. This has never really happened for the MKI.
They need to work with the OEM and see to what degree stuff can be upgraded. Even fund development of new technologies. The most obvious upgrade would be the Irbis-E. So instead of buying the same MKI over and over again, they needed to bring in new tech as they come in.
Take HAL for example. They wanted to upgrade the Jaguar with a radar and had decided on a MS radar. Then they worked with the Israelis and switched out the MS radar with AESA for the same amount. So the IAF should have worked with HAL and OEM to bring in upgrades for the MKI, particularly the yet to be built blocks. In this case, the Bars-R and the Irbis-E.
The argument both MoD and IAF make is, "the process should be renewed". Then the answer is simple, renew it. The IN did it with the sub-optimal P-8s after all. They are doing it with the Scorpene. If one service wing can do it, so can another.
Sure. They don't have to do anything here. But this is not what I'm talking about.
That P-8A thing is fine. We don't control the tech, so the seller decides what we should buy. No such problem with the Russians.
I already told ya, in GTG, other countries what our services can have. Only in a tender, we can ask what we want. P-8s came through a GTG.
In this case (MKI upgrade), never been done. It's been nearly 20 years and it looks like the IAF is still deciding the second configuration. They should have been in their third configuration by now.
Impossible. When it comes to making first time procurement, there is only Plan A. IAF does not have the flexibility of a plan B in a multi-vendor situation. I don't fault them at all. We are lucky that Modi came along and happened to give them a Plan B of his own volition, at great political risk to him, as you have seen.
I am talking about buying upgrades for existing stuff, which is 100% single vendor, and completely under IAF's control. IAF and OEM decide what can go in or not in any of their platforms. Hell, IAF can even decide to chuck the OEM out of the process also. MoD doesn't decide tech specs.
What's P-8 to do with upgrading the MKI? It's specific to the US. No matter how much you beg and plead they won't give up their tech without having crossed certain bureaucratic hurdles. If the P-8 is sub-optimal, why will the Russians not sell you the Irbis-E? They have in fact offered upgrades for the MKI multiple times for years now. Tech denial is totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. The Russians have been literally begging us to buy their new Flanker tech for a decade.
IAF has no role in T&C and pricing. But IAF has full control over starting a new process. I am talking about starting a new process with a single vendor for new upgrades. IN does it, IAF does not, it's as simple as that.
Just like how integrating a new weapon on the MKI requires a new process, so does replacing the radar on the MKI. This is completely within IAF's control. The IAF has merely failed to exercise this option. It's not difficult for them to start a process through the MoD to replace the Bars radar with the Irbis. And no, this has nothing to do with bureaucracy or money. In fact the Irbis upgrade would have become the standard configuration for their Su-30SM also. Instead they are now doing this on their own.
Russia to Upgrade Su-30SM Jets to Su-35 Standard, Offers the Same to Su-30MKI
I am not talking about this stuff at all. I know this has nothing to do with the forces.