I think our further orders of next tranche will be done after ISE were completed.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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I think our further orders of next tranche will be done after ISE were completed.
It's not just the engine, even the airframe is suited for high altitude, much more so than Rafale. Also, although the Typhoon has lower range, the advantage for small countries is it can go supersonic much faster. For example, in Singapore, they pointed out that only the Typhoon could go supersonic within their own airspace, the Rafale and F-15 could not. The higher TWR should also allow for a slightly higher climb rate at medium to high altitudes.
I suppose most of the performance related issues of Rafale in comparison with Typhoon can be fixed with higher thrust though, like the 83KN version. I'm sure India will consider the upgrade when it happens. We need all the thrust we can get.
The performance related differences are why the Typhoon got extra points during MMRCA and ranked above the Rafale.
That's basically mid to end 2022. We can't wait that long though, and @halloweene pointed out that there was a plan to sign up for 36 more in 2021.
I'm hoping for new discussions to start early next year and a contract signed before December 2021.
The G-suit has a lot to do with the service ceiling of an aircraft. A full body G-suit like that of Typhoon allows for higher ejection for the crew and that raises the envelope of the aircraft. All fighters have low differential pressurisation systems and the G-suits worn by pilots prevent injuries to them while ejecting at higher altitudes and high speeds. The basic G-suits worn by Rafale pilots is good only till about 50K feet altitude. Try and have a look what is worn by Typhoon pilots and Su-57 pilots. Mig-25 pilots used to wear a suit which was nearly same as that of astronauts.
I expect new orders in less than a year and even larger than 44 if we have a short war with China. Rafale will prove itself for sure and that will kill any and all objections for repeat orders. Indian pilots have also been briefed by French AF pilots about the tactics to be used by this aircraft. Something which no nation shares with another nation. These Pilots know how to exploit this aircraft to its full limits and they will do it.
The best advertisement for Rafale would be it killing a J-20 and/or destroying the S-400. If the French have decided not to train the Indian pilots to deal with either threat, then it's not to their own advantage. So I do hope the French have given our pilots their 15+ years worth to experience in operating the jets against actual threats.
This advertisement will naturally result in more orders from India and even Europe, not counting their traditional customers operating Mirages.
publicity stunt kar raha hai mahindra wale ki tarah. Notice my billionaire a** people. It not just for Modi Ji & other crook's only.
I've read that 10 are already completed.
So I think another 3 before year end. Maybe more as they are produce for India to a 1/month rate.
They will not be delivered one by one. More 3 by 3 now.
No Buyers For Rafale Jets: Why Almost Every Country Dumped French Rafales Except India?
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India's deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country's defence sector.
eurasiantimes.com
EurAsian Times: Latest Asian, Middle-East, EurAsian, Indian NewsFEATURED
No Buyers For Rafale Jets: Why Almost Every Country Dumped French Rafales Except India?
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector.
Published
1 day ago
on
August 2, 2020
By
EurAsian Times Desk
While India is celebrating the arrival of its Rafale jets, military experts have not only questioned its capabilities against US aircraft but also raised questions why the Rafale jets failed to compete in the international arms markets and got dumped by a majority of nations?
Dassault’s Rafale was not India’s only choice as various other global firms expressed interest in the MMRCA tender. Six renowned aircraft manufacturers competed to bag the contract of 126 jets, which was hailed to be the largest-ever defence acquisition deal of India.
The initial bidders were Lockheed Martin’s F-16s, Boeing’s F/A-18s, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russia’s MiG-35, Sweden’s Saab’s Gripen and Dassault’s Rafale.
All aircraft were tested by the IAF and after careful analysis on the bids, two of them — Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale — were shortlisted.
Dassault received the contract to provide 126 fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder and the aircraft was said to be easy to maintain. After Rafale won the contract, the Indian side and Dassault started negotiations in 2012. Though the initial plan was to buy 126 jets, India scaled it down to 36, that too in fly-away condition.
No Buyers For Rafale Jets?
Despite boasting of awe-inspiring capabilities and selected by India after a mammoth testing & bidding process, the French origin jets didn’t see many buyers. Other than France and India, only Qatar and Egypt are using Rafale jets and that too in very limited numbers.
As reported earlier by EurAsian Times, Russian aviation experts had claimed that Rafale jets would have been useless against the Chinese Airforce (PLAAF). The maximum speed of the Rafale jet is about Mach 1.8 compared to Chinese J-16s at Mach 2.2.
The Rafale’s practical ceiling is also lower than the J-16s. Even in engine thrust, the Chinese J-16s aka Russian Su-35s are far superior to the French combat aircraft. Even if the Indian Air Force (IAF) was to deploy all 36 of its newly acquired jets, the technical superiority would still be on the side of China, claimed the Russian expert.
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector, along with the small scale on which the Rafale is being produced in comparison to rival fighters such as the F-18, MiG-29 or F-35 due to which Rafale has not benefitted from economies of scale. This has contributed to its poor performance in the international markets.
Analysts believe that a major hindrance to the Rafale’s success is that it combines a high cost with a very light and unspecialised airframe, meaning that for countries seeking out a high-end fighter, they will turn to look towards something heavier and with more capabilities like the F-15 or Su-35, while for those seeking a cheap medium or lightweight fighter the F-16V, F-18E or MiG-35 would be more cost-effective.
South Korea and Singapore selected the powerful F-15 over Rafale in the 2000s. In 2015, Egypt purchased 24 of those jets – with an option for 12 more – under a wider arms agreement with France.
The following year, in 2016, the two sides entered into a dialogue with Egypt possibly exercising that option, or even expanding the order up to 24 jets. However, even with high-level dialogue between Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and French President Emmanuel Macron, Cairo and Paris didn’t finalise the deal. Instead, Egypt inked a deal with Russia to purchase “over two dozen” Su-35 fighter jets.
“Indian media is celebrating the arrival of five Rafales as if they won a war against China. If Rafale is so good, why Oman, Korea, Singapore, Libya, Kuwait, Canada, Brazil, Belgium, UAE, Switzerland, Malaysia refused to buy it. Besides India, only Qatar & Egypt have bought it,” tweeted Ashok Swain, Professor of Peace and Conflict Research, UNESCO Chair of International Water Cooperation.
Rafale’s third buyer, India, previously proposed to acquire 126 jets under Make in India and not 36. However, it took five years for even the first five jets to arrive in India after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced it in April 2015 during his trip to France.
According to Snehesh Alex Philip’s opinion piece in ThePrint, beneath the celebration of the arrival of Rafale jets, lies the harsh reality of India’s painfully slow defence purchases. The Rafale deal and a plethora of procurement, now being done under the emergency clause in the wake of tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), exposes the malaise that continues to shadow India’s defence procurement and planning. “Merely having a large standing Army or an Air Force with aircraft flying on an extended lease of life and without much use against modern weaponry of the enemy, cannot be India’s answer,” he wrote.
According to analysts, despite heavy marketing by the makers of Rafale, France’s relatively small and inefficient defence sector seems to have met its limit with the fighter program. The small production lines are unable to produce the aircraft quickly or efficiently and the French budget for research and development is smaller in contrast to the US or Russia.
The aircraft is priced very steeply and most nations prefer to buy US jets not only because of the technical superiority but also to please the Americans instead of the French. The Rafales have seemingly lost the fight in the international market, despite boasting of excellent qualities.
HIGH LEVEL BULL SHIT !!!No Buyers For Rafale Jets: Why Almost Every Country Dumped French Rafales Except India?
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India's deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country's defence sector.
FEATURED
No Buyers For Rafale Jets: Why Almost Every Country Dumped French Rafales Except India?
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector.
Published
1 day ago
on
August 2, 2020
By
EurAsian Times Desk
While India is celebrating the arrival of its Rafale jets, military experts have not only questioned its capabilities against US aircraft but also raised questions why the Rafale jets failed to compete in the international arms markets and got dumped by a majority of nations?
Dassault’s Rafale was not India’s only choice as various other global firms expressed interest in the MMRCA tender. Six renowned aircraft manufacturers competed to bag the contract of 126 jets, which was hailed to be the largest-ever defence acquisition deal of India.
The initial bidders were Lockheed Martin’s F-16s, Boeing’s F/A-18s, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russia’s MiG-35, Sweden’s Saab’s Gripen and Dassault’s Rafale.
All aircraft were tested by the IAF and after careful analysis on the bids, two of them — Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale — were shortlisted.
Dassault received the contract to provide 126 fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder and the aircraft was said to be easy to maintain. After Rafale won the contract, the Indian side and Dassault started negotiations in 2012. Though the initial plan was to buy 126 jets, India scaled it down to 36, that too in fly-away condition.
No Buyers For Rafale Jets?
Despite boasting of awe-inspiring capabilities and selected by India after a mammoth testing & bidding process, the French origin jets didn’t see many buyers. Other than France and India, only Qatar and Egypt are using Rafale jets and that too in very limited numbers.
As reported earlier by EurAsian Times, Russian aviation experts had claimed that Rafale jets would have been useless against the Chinese Airforce (PLAAF). The maximum speed of the Rafale jet is about Mach 1.8 compared to Chinese J-16s at Mach 2.2.
The Rafale’s practical ceiling is also lower than the J-16s. Even in engine thrust, the Chinese J-16s aka Russian Su-35s are far superior to the French combat aircraft. Even if the Indian Air Force (IAF) was to deploy all 36 of its newly acquired jets, the technical superiority would still be on the side of China, claimed the Russian expert.
The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector, along with the small scale on which the Rafale is being produced in comparison to rival fighters such as the F-18, MiG-29 or F-35 due to which Rafale has not benefitted from economies of scale. This has contributed to its poor performance in the international markets.
Analysts believe that a major hindrance to the Rafale’s success is that it combines a high cost with a very light and unspecialised airframe, meaning that for countries seeking out a high-end fighter, they will turn to look towards something heavier and with more capabilities like the F-15 or Su-35, while for those seeking a cheap medium or lightweight fighter the F-16V, F-18E or MiG-35 would be more cost-effective.
South Korea and Singapore selected the powerful F-15 over Rafale in the 2000s. In 2015, Egypt purchased 24 of those jets – with an option for 12 more – under a wider arms agreement with France.
The following year, in 2016, the two sides entered into a dialogue with Egypt possibly exercising that option, or even expanding the order up to 24 jets. However, even with high-level dialogue between Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and French President Emmanuel Macron, Cairo and Paris didn’t finalise the deal. Instead, Egypt inked a deal with Russia to purchase “over two dozen” Su-35 fighter jets.
“Indian media is celebrating the arrival of five Rafales as if they won a war against China. If Rafale is so good, why Oman, Korea, Singapore, Libya, Kuwait, Canada, Brazil, Belgium, UAE, Switzerland, Malaysia refused to buy it. Besides India, only Qatar & Egypt have bought it,” tweeted Ashok Swain, Professor of Peace and Conflict Research, UNESCO Chair of International Water Cooperation.
Rafale’s third buyer, India, previously proposed to acquire 126 jets under Make in India and not 36. However, it took five years for even the first five jets to arrive in India after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced it in April 2015 during his trip to France.
According to Snehesh Alex Philip’s opinion piece in ThePrint, beneath the celebration of the arrival of Rafale jets, lies the harsh reality of India’s painfully slow defence purchases. The Rafale deal and a plethora of procurement, now being done under the emergency clause in the wake of tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), exposes the malaise that continues to shadow India’s defence procurement and planning. “Merely having a large standing Army or an Air Force with aircraft flying on an extended lease of life and without much use against modern weaponry of the enemy, cannot be India’s answer,” he wrote.
According to analysts, despite heavy marketing by the makers of Rafale, France’s relatively small and inefficient defence sector seems to have met its limit with the fighter program. The small production lines are unable to produce the aircraft quickly or efficiently and the French budget for research and development is smaller in contrast to the US or Russia.
The aircraft is priced very steeply and most nations prefer to buy US jets not only because of the technical superiority but also to please the Americans instead of the French. The Rafales have seemingly lost the fight in the international market, despite boasting of excellent qualities.
Yeas, but there is some doubt on ceiling height. Last time, one of the reason why our MKI failed to achieve kill was thought to be the altitude difference. MkI was in shallow depth compares to f16.
In a hypothetical scenario when su35 & rafale detects each other and both were at maximum ceiling, what wil happen?
There are no practical limits for altitude from the aircraft's point of view. The only altitude limit is the one that corresponds to the wingsuit worn by the pilot, and this limit is simply for the pilot's survival in the event of an ejection. If you want to raise the Rafale higher, simply change the pilot's wingsuit.
There should be a maximum altitude for every aircraft. Do Rafale fly high like U2 or mig25, even with a pressure suite?
There are three types of ceiling for operating an aircraft.
Absolute Ceiling- when the aircraft reaches a climb rate of Zero with full power and is able to maintain just straight and level flight.
Service ceiling- The altitude at which the aircraft is able to maintain 500ft/minute rate of climb.
Ceiling- This is the maximum operational altitude of an aircraft and it can be dependent not only on performance but on many other aspects. In the case of Rafale, it is due to the pressure suits worn by the pilots.
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Rafale won !
1) because it is stealthier than Su35 and see it first.
2) because Meteor is unrivaled in range.
He posted a news article from a source which claimed Iranian missiles targeted Indian Rafales in UAEs airbase. So you can guess their credibility
I don't know how to answer your question, but an aircraft's operating ceiling is not the maximum altitude at which it can fly. I can illustrate this with an anecdote involving a French Mirage 2000 pilot: he was flying at 55,000 feet, which is the operating ceiling, at a speed of about mach 1.6, and he wanted to know what would happen if the stick was pulled.... he ended up at 72,000 feet.
Yes, this is called zoom climb. You fly at a lower altitude which gives you good performance and thereafter you convert your speed to altitude by going in for a high alpha climb, but the flight path will be like a sine curve in which you will hit an apogee and than descend down below the altitude from which you started the zoom climb to settle at the altitude from which you started the zoom climb.
F-15 has an ASAT which follows this curve of flight.