The f-15 literally has the best radar out of the bunch followed by eurofighters captor mk2. The designs maybe of the 70's. The tech is 2010+. Although typhoon is the best plane out of all along with the rafale.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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We only need to deal with the Brits and maybe the italians/spanish. The amount of job creation the typhoon can bring for the British economy will be too big for them to miss. The only issue with the typhoon is the high life cycle cost. The typhoon may not be as good as a strike fighter like the rafale but it is pretty much the best aircraft when it comes to air defence and air superiority among all nato fighters especially with captor mk2. Considering we will be facing j-10,j-16 and j-20 which have huge radar ranges, typhoon is the only one that genuinely fits the bill. Plus all kinds of nato munitions can be integrated like the Gripen. The only thing it might not have is the mica ng but we get the amraams in our arsenal.
Since we have our own deterence we don't need a shield nor any weapon. We really need a third light big enough to be its own market (France can't be this one), strong enough to not depend from anyone else (France can be this one but India is not ready for this point), stable enough and not depending from one of the two other superpowers to keep an open world.
Still too much back and forth for day to day issues. France plans to operate the Rafale through 2050 now that SCAF is delayed. The Brits are now focused on Tempest/GCAP with service entry planned for 2035.
The Brits are infamous for being complete US poodles when it comes to foreign policy, defence and trade. Geopolitics always trumps trade and commerce as we're seeing in Ukraine.
License production from raw material stage will cost 2X at minimum. Add the cost of weapons, training and support (+inflation) and the figure is astronomical.
It also fares poorly in terms of strike radius/endurance which is why EF partner nations toyed with the idea of conformal over wing fuel tanks in the past. But seems it went nowhere. Rafale is competitive with the MKI in terms of staying in the fight.
That said, Typhoon desperately needs orders beyond small-fry ME nations (Pakistani pilots may even be flying them in KSA, Qatar!)
If we get a good deal in terms of unit cost, spares, source codes, weapons + sovereign guarantees of lifetime support (regardless of the 'K' games being played - Kashmir, Khalistan, et all) it might be worth a look. But at the moment, that's a big if..
The capabilities against Pakistan and China have already been established. Now it's all about modernization and some additional numbers here and there, like an extra division or two and new satellite capabilities; fast-paced inductions. Technological inductions are capability driven. Let's hope the IAF gets those between 2035-45 via MRFA, AMCA and drones, whereas the IA can get them before 2035, ie, artillery guns, FRCV, FICV, infantry modernization etc.
Net security provider in the IOR under the navy's hands will naturally take time with the induction of SSKs, SSNs and a third carrier with air complement. We are pretty good elsewhere. This is also capability driven.
So you already know about our white paper requirements before 2050.
Even if ORCA meets MRFA requirements, it's not going to meet proven credentials.
Basically, a Rafale squadron inducted in 2035 is ready to fight in 2036. An ORCA squadron inducted in 2035 is not going to be ready until sometime in the mid-2040s. It takes that much time to learn and train personnel to use tech. It takes 5-8 years to bring a pilot up to expert level. It takes 7-10 years to train an expert level maintenance crew. With the Rafale, all of that's been ready since 2010.
Furthermore, we will need to push the TEDBF's team's best scientific personnel towards the IN's requirements, 'cause it's being made for them. If we have to diversify labor towards the IAF's needs too, the quality will decrease on the IN's side as the industry prioritises the more profitable and easier IAF requirements.
Once again, why buy ORCA when there's AMCA?
The F-15's radar is of the older ilk. It's based on the F-22 and F-35's radar developments. Whereas the radar we are looking for via MRFA barely even exist today.
When I say shield, umbrella or footmat, I'm referring to politics, not military.
I don't know why you think how any of that will help France.
Let's assume US and France have sanctioned India in 2030. France and India have now become enemies. And let's assume India doesn't need external assistance for its military. Then how do you think things will play out in the larger scheme? I'm actually quite curious about this.
I would definitely like to see that. It won't beat the Rafale, but will create new standards with its new gen airframe. It's unlikely to meet our expected schedule either, 'cause the Koreans are still in the process of developing an export model.
If Tedbf is equal to Rafale..
And tedbf can after Rafale production has ended ( assume it)
Simply having 300 Rafale equivalent aircrafts are better than having 100 Rafale alone right..
We could upgrade, modify as when needed..
Letting Tedbf fail will become big blow Navy s fighter plans. 3 carrier + shore based plans.
Too much of strings will be attached
Technical complexity will prevent any safeguard measures we can do..
Once again France can't play the regulator role. We're not big enough. But India can.
I don't think you have understood how strategic reliationship with India is for France. Any sanction against India will be block by France in UN.
At the end of the XVIII century we have help US to counter UK much to big for France in the world, In the XVI century we had good reliationships with the otoman empire to counter the holy roman german empire. At the end of the XIX we have tried to have our own empire considering the ottoman and the UK empire. It was not very succesfull considering current US state.
The current situation is that any country in the world is on the way to choose between US and China and to accept to be a footmat for one of these both country.
If India has the capacity of his sovereignty then a non align choice exist and China and US could not win more power. Once again there is no sign from India to have imperialist behaviour. Perhaps in the furur but not currently. Considering this behaviour then you can maintain viable an open world . That's exactly what numerous countries including France want.
It's difficult to say. Both need only 3-4 years of flight testing and both are going to fly for the first time around the same time. Perhaps induction will happen simultaneously.
Both are next decade programmes. However, in my opinion, MK2 will be inducted before IUSAV.
I mean we will be losing approximately 200 more aircrafts by 2035-37 max. Is our aim to just replenish those 200 + maybe 100 Mig21s (last 4 bison squadrons).... Or we aim to increase the number beyond 32 squadrons by 2040?
That's what I meant.
To fight a one-front war, we need 30 squadrons. To fight a two-front war simultaneously, we need 42.5 squadrons. Due to current geopolitical realities, there is no immediate fear of a two-front war.
If we exclude all Mig-21s and LCA Mk1As, we will have 29 squadrons. 3 Mig-29 squadrons were supposed to be phased out, but will be extended by a decade more. 3 Jaguar DARIN II squadrons are expected to be phased out by 2035, so we drop down to 26 squadrons. Another half squadron MKI is expected to be raised after the 13th one; 20x13.5 = 270. So 26.5 in total.
With MKI MLU at 84 jets, ie, 21 jets per squadron, it's possible that the 13.5th squadron will not be raised.
So with all the Mig-21s and half the Jaguars gone, there is no new phase out until after 2035, when all the Jags (2040), Mig-29 (2042) and Mirages (2042+), a total of 9 squadrons, are phased out. The delay in upgrading the Mirages would mean at least 1 squadron can survive until 2045.
So, with 9 new LCA squadrons coming in between 2024 and 2032, we will have 26+9 = 35 squadrons in 2032. If we assume 2 Mk2 and 1 MRFA squadrons are inducted by 2035, then we will have 38 squadrons, by my calculations. The IAF is actually expecting to have all 42.5 squadrons by 2035, by assuming LCA Mk2 inductions will begin in 2031 instead of 2033, giving them at least 4 squadrons, and MRFA could happen equally faster for an additional squadron or two.
With 9 squadrons pending, we can assume the remaining 5 MRFA, 4 Mk2 and 7 AMCA squadrons will fill the gap between 2035 and 2045, pushing us to 45 squadrons.
Although I say 3 Jaguar squadrons will be phased out over the next few years, it could be 2.5 because half a squadron is a relatively new sea strike version with the EL/M 2032 under the Dragons. It could take a few more years for phase out. I guess the previous plan was the 13.5th MKI squadron will replace it, and this is not necessary with the LCA Mk2, but you never know.
Anyway, based on my calculations, we will have 38 squadrons by 2035, whereas IAF believes they will have all 42.5 squadrons by then. I believe they think LCA Mk2 will enter production in 2029 with deliveries beginning in 2031, with all 6 squadrons inducted by 2036, with MRFA halfway done by then, both at 24 per year each.
I gave an RFP to contract negotiations timeframe of 3 years for MRFA, I won't be surprised if it's less than that.
Here's the full thread from Indranil Roy on why MRFA churning out FAs in the 2030s is a hare brained idea.
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