MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    237
I find it funny that Ignorants think AMCA is an "iteration." Another feather for his dunce cap.

LCA Mk1 to LCA Mk1A is an iteration. Even the old Mk2 was an iteration. The new LCA Mk2 is a modernization. TEDBF and AMCA are entirely new developments with extremely high chances of failure.

Even with all their tech and background, including the successful development of the F-22, the Americans are still struggling with the F-35. And funnily enough, a lot of the problems faced by the jet is based on an iterative development of the F-22's avionics. So even "iteration" comes with risks. Meaning even LCA Mk2 is a risky project, never mind AMCA.

a : destitute of knowledge or education

also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence
 
I also mentioned the IUSAV there . Wonder how did RST miss it . All "new" aircrafts are iterations the same way that all successful directors make the same movies. If RST understood the rich language of metaphors he would be mature which he isn't , but all those he criticises are , like Indranil Roy for instance.

The F-35 is a perfect example of how not to run a program . That the USAF one of the oldest , most sophisticated , admired & most copied AFs of the world is doing so is even more astonishing.

Perhaps it's a reflection of the deep rot which has set in courtesy the incestuous MIC , rampant corruption , politics etc .

All projects are risky by definition more so if they're a move into uncharted territory which is true for AMCA & TEDBF . Hence the term calculated risks , risk mitigation etc . Frankly I see problems realising the AMCA Mk-2 not so much the AMCA Mk-1. However we still have a decade to go for it to be realised.

Meanwhile here's a definition of storyteller . Be entertained. By the definition I meant . His stories are in any case entertaining . Also provide for a good diversion. From reality mostly. Which is what storytellers are for .

storyteller​

noun

sto·ry·tell·er ˈstȯr-ē-ˌte-lər

Synonyms of storyteller
: a teller of stories: such as
a
: a relater of anecdotes
b
: a reciter of tales (as in a children's library)
c
: liar, fibber
d
: a writer of stories


PS - I have no clue how did Clause C get there .
 
Meanwhile I can think of a dozen threads on this forum this article by Shekhar Gupta can go into but since we're discussing budget & costs & 56" defence budgets for the past 6-7 years especially since Galwan , I choose to link the article here.


 
Meanwhile I can think of a dozen threads on this forum this article by Shekhar Gupta can go into but since we're discussing budget & costs & 56" defence budgets for the past 6-7 years especially since Galwan , I choose to link the article here.


I like how he uses the word 'pacifist' to describe the Govt's ambivalence towards modernising the armed forces even after a 4-year stand-off with China.

2 percent of GDP is the bare minimum that needs to go into defence spending but it needs to be consistent.

Unless the long promised non-lapsable fund is set up for holding excess unspent CAPEX monies year on year, this farce of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' won't end.

You'd think N. Sitharaman would know better, having served as RM herself, however short her stint might have been.

Secondly, the Govt has left it to the individual services, particularly the IA, to downsize support/non-combat formations when it should have taken a more holistic approach, steered by the CDS and his team. He can be more dispassionate than the respective service chiefs.

Thirdly, we need to be building complementary capabilities across the three services rather than duplicating them. Case in point: The Apaches. Imo The IAF should be made to give up its Apaches to the IA. Just like it was asked to surrender the MPA mission (Super Constellation fleet) to the IN back in the day.
 
Why is there animosity between you two?

It's nothing much. It's a problem most Indian Internet defence afficianados are facing in the post-COVID era, and he's a victim of that.

He became dillusioned that a lot of things I said were simply delayed, like MRFA. He's also frustrated because of the slow progress of modernization. Nothing short of India making Starship Enterprise or a Death Star will suffice now. DRDO has made some very good products, but the forces are not interested in it due to some deficiency or the other.

For example, we have an artillery gun called ATAGS that surpasses the performance of all existing guns worldwide, but IA wants to import the requirement after buying some as stopgap. Similarly, we have a wheeled armored vehicle called WhAP, but IA wants the American Stryker. Similarly he is a very avid supporter of the basic trainer HAL made called HTT-40, for which we had intense discussions in 2019. I held the view that it will be inducted well after 2025 and become useful only around 2026 or so, a prediction that became true. You can imagine the disappointment there. This is further compounded by the fact that even successful products like LCA Mk1A, QRSAM (IA's SAM for maneuver groups), MPATGM (an ATGM) etc are delayed.

It's the product of today's world, instant gratification. People are not patient. I blame his overuse of Twitter for it, which is why I avoid it for anything except news. The overuse of Twitter's made people antsy, especially post-COVID.

Researchers at the University of Toronto published their findings in the journal Communications Psychology, sharing that logging on to Twitter was likely to exacerbate feelings of loneliness, boredom, outrage and political polarisation. The study states that “people who used Twitter a lot were lonelier and more bored; people who retweeted a lot were more polarised; people who used Twitter to avoid their problems (escapism) had lower wellbeing and higher outrage levels; and people who used Twitter for social interactions had a higher sense of belonging”.

Veronica Walsh is a cognitive behavioural specialist (CBT) based in Dublin and says that many people find that doomscrolling is an unaddressed bad habit in their lives, and that many people aren’t consciously aware of how much it is impacting them. “There’s this idea that Twitter is constantly giving us doses of dopamine,” says Walsh, but it’s cortisol, and cortisol is the main stress hormone. It is a fact that too much exposure to stress every day can dysregulate you – like boiling a frog – it becomes normalised very quickly to be ‘trippy’ and alert in a negative way – physically emotionally and cognitively. So mindful regulation would seem to be a skill we should all be learning and applying in our daily lives.”


So that's what's happening to a lot of people online.

Instant gratification is a slow poison. That's why this weird sense of optimism that AMCA is enough. And this is not restricted to civilians alone, even experts are succumbing to it.

For example, this gentleman was responsible for flying both the SH and Rafale for the navy.

But you can see his suspicion towards the IN's position on Rafale M because the IN is apparently delaying the progress of TEDBF to keep the Rafale deal alive. Naturally TEDBF will survive as long as it meets requirements, but the lack of patience is evident here. People don't fully understand how tightly chained the forces are to the bureaucracy, especially under a nationalist govt that's tied itself to the pro-industry lobby as a byproduct of all the reforms they made during their first term, which in turn's slowed down imports.

Quite a few people have become both extremely pessimistic about our current conditions and the near future, although they are merely not privy to all the details, and have quite a bit of misplaced optimism about the distant future, like the expectations out of TEDBF and AMCA.

Anyway, Ignorants started off trying to pull my leg some day and I didn't take it well, so all the name calling and taunting. And now we are fighting to kill time.

We have a difference of opinion too due to his pessimism in some areas and misplaced optimism in others clashing with my optimism and realism respectively. For example, I believed that both P-75I and MRFA will happen, which a lot of people had written off. And now his misplaced optimism makes him believe AMCA will succeed, relegating MRFA to the bin, whereas I'm showing a realistic position of maintaining both programs.

To add to that, I keep bringing up inconvenient truths about all other existing programs, so you can imagine the reception in a hypernationalistic forum like this. My latest tidbit is LUH, the replacement for Alouette, is as much as 10 times worse than what it's replacing in terms of maintenance, which is the leading cause of friction between the forces and industry in the program, which has delayed its entry into service. LUH has medium helicopter level maintenance requirements when it's supposed to be light, because HAL based it on Dhruv. We need 400+, but are starting off with a much smaller number.

And to make matters worse, I'm also a contrarian, which means I take up an opposing view regardless of my own opinions. You've see that personally in our F-35 vs Rafale debates. That gets under people's skin too.

So, Ignorants has a lot of respect for me, but cannot find the words to express it. And he wants to pick my brains, so he does it all passive aggressive, like we are married, that's why his UK-France example.

Look at his post 5442. Some poppycock about metaphors and deep rot. He completely lacks the foundation to understand the subject, hence looking for answers. If IUSAV fails, we will just import once again. Such an obvious answer. The same if MRFA or AMCA fail, we will buy Russian. And the F-35 failed because of overconfidence in their "iterative capabilities," without understanding that his own point proves mine instead.

Conclusion: Misplaced expectations and Twitter have been bad for his mental health. And he should be excused because even local defense experts have fallen for it.
 
I like how he uses the word 'pacifist' to describe the Govt's ambivalence towards modernising the armed forces even after a 4-year stand-off with China.

It's complete BS. Modi's focused a lot on indigenous tech, and a lot of it is not something that can be published for our eyes. For example, the SSN program moved first even though both our SSK programs are much older. The fact is we are spending more on defense than ever before, at least in terms of volumes. The only problem is it's not fully visible to us from the outside.

2 percent of GDP is the bare minimum that needs to go into defence spending but it needs to be consistent.

There is no immediate need to. We are currently at the upper limits of what could start an arms race and we have no intention of doing that.

How many people realize we are currently building almost 500 tanks, while initiating plans for 2000+ more tanks?

Unless the long promised non-lapsable fund is set up for holding excess unspent CAPEX monies year on year, this farce of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' won't end.

We haven't had much unspent funds over the last many years anyway. Spending has been above 99%. They have found ways to spend everything by pushing leftover money towards indigenous projects. They basically end up paying Indian industry sooner than contracted.

You'd think N. Sitharaman would know better, having served as RM herself, however short her stint might have been.

At least the IAF isn't complaining.

Secondly, the Govt has left it to the individual services, particularly the IA, to downsize support/non-combat formations when it should have taken a more holistic approach, steered by the CDS and his team. He can be more dispassionate than the respective service chiefs.

IA's functions should be left to the IA. CDS has a different job.

Thirdly, we need to be building complementary capabilities across the three services rather than duplicating them. Case in point: The Apaches. Imo The IAF should be made to give up its Apaches to the IA. Just like it was asked to surrender the MPA mission (Super Constellation fleet) to the IN back in the day.

We are not ready for that yet. Any consolidation must be done for future capabilities. In any case, it will all operationally come under the theater commander eventually.
 
I like how he uses the word 'pacifist' to describe the Govt's ambivalence towards modernising the armed forces even after a 4-year stand-off with China.
He doesn't like Modi of this government for not giving him the respect & access to him as he thinks he deserves .
2 percent of GDP is the bare minimum that needs to go into defence spending but it needs to be consistent.
I'm not sure if Modi's being advised incorrectly or he's pursuing his own agenda with respect to China in spite of the advice . I mean at this point it's quite clear the entire Agniveer program was the brainchild of the PMO & was driven by it.

Unless the long promised non-lapsable fund is set up for holding excess unspent CAPEX monies year on year, this farce of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' won't end.
That problem of non lapsable fund has long been solved. What we have now is the issue of not much money being allocated for CAPEX though if you were to ask the likes of RST he'd be quite sanguine about the whole issue .

You'd think N. Sitharaman would know better, having served as RM herself, however short her stint might have been.
You're labouring under the assumption both she & Rajnath Singh are specialists in their domain. They're place holders & essentially a front for the bureaucracy they're heading. You replace either of them with say an RST & you'd find absolutely no difference whatsoever in the workings of their ministry.

Secondly, the Govt has left it to the individual services, particularly the IA, to downsize support/non-combat formations when it should have taken a more holistic approach, steered by the CDS and his team. He can be more dispassionate than the respective service chiefs.


Thirdly, we need to be building complementary capabilities across the three services rather than duplicating them. Case in point: The Apaches. Imo The IAF should be made to give up its Apaches to the IA. Just like it was asked to surrender the MPA mission (Super Constellation fleet) to the IN back in the day.

At this point I've nothing to say having expended much energy voicing my PoV on different fora except to say we're in for really tough times when the flag goes up on the LAC & a great deal of whatever we face there would be on the head this government especially the person heading it & all those who've been complicit in half baked schemes like Agniveer or rank poor planning in the IAF , development of infrastructure without adequate modernization of the IA etc .

Right Now the only service arm doing somewhat alright is the IN & there are plenty of issues with them as well . Should tell you a story of its own .
 
You mean AUKUS was a splash in the pan & it's all forgiven & forgotten.
But we know that the British are like that, and in spite of that, the Australians paid us for studies that enabled us to win the Dutch tender, and on top of that they paid half a billion in penalties. In the end, everyone takes them for suckers, it's sad. :ROFLMAO:
 
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But we know that the British are like that, and in spite of that, the Australians paid us for studies that enabled us to win the Dutch tender, and on top of that they paid half a billion in penalties. In the end, everyone takes them for suckers, it's sad. :ROFLMAO:
Orka is 3000+tonnes submarine, why France didn't bring this to P75I tender. It must be a perfect choice for IN.
@randomradio @vstol Jockey
 
Modi's focused a lot on indigenous tech, and a lot of it is not something that can be published for our ey
Unfortunately, a lot of it hasn't translated into orders. Our troops lack helmets, BPJs, night vision gear, combat boots. The Chinese have an overwhelming firepower advantage while our forces conduct trials upon trials of 155mm guns, SAMs, etc.

the SSN program moved first even though both our SSK programs are much old
SSN is funded by the PMO, not the navy. MoF has stalled/pared down many IN projects like IAC-2 leading to compromises like Vikrant 2.

are currently at the upper limits of what could start an arms race and we have no intention of doing that.
As the report states, the Pakistanis and Chinese are looking at our declining defence spending and not sound bytes from the liked of Rajnath Singh about retaking PoK, etc as a measure of our national will/intent.

The Chinese were smug in negotiating with Modi in Russia recently as they know their firepower advantage over us is overwhelming.

IA's functions should be left to the IA. CDS has a different job.
The CDS has asked the services run their own studies on force rationalization but progress has been slow.

The current CDS is ex-Army and therefore no stranger to the Army's manpower issues.

We are not ready for that yet. Any consolidation must be done for future capabilitie

A single service can manage logistics and maintenance issues better, creating a 'center of excellence'. Attack helicopters are flown by land forces across the world.
 
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Its T/W that matters and not thrust alone. Compare MTOWs and then Speak.
T/w really doesn't matter when it comes to fifth gen since they are all rated to fly at 1.8 mach max. It's the power output that it's avionics and radar will get that will give it a bigger range. Compare super hornet and f-15EX radar ranges.
AMCA has EOTS. Don't spew bullshit if you don't know
Some made up drawings on **** are not any real proof.
What is this "Planning" thing. They already flew some empty shell for show case purpose. Our prototype is getting built, they cut the blockhead, all sub-systems are realized and its progressing
Difference is their empty shell is flying. We don't even know when our empty shell will fly. We don't even mk2 prototype out yet.
 
^^F-22 supercruises at 1.8 Mach mate. Its top speed is well above Mach 2.0. Su-57, with AL-51F, shall supercruise at ~ Mach 2.0.

So not all 5th gen jets are limited to Mach 1.8.
 
2 percent of GDP is the bare minimum that needs to go into defence spending but it needs to be consistent.
Those two most powerfull politicians in india currently are from the same state which have least contribution to military personal participation. Dont expect any increase in military budget as long as these two were in power, for them money matters or atleast the core supporters who have influence on them.
 
That's where people end up tripping.

One: People believe ADA will stick to their own schedule. Mk2 is somewhat achieveable. ADA thinks 2029 production, 2031 service entry, I think the latter will be closer to 2033. AMCA, they think 2035. At the current rate, I think 2040+.

Two: Absolutely nobody cares about things like maintenance and logistics, and this is where we can tell the difference between ignoramuses and professionals. And this is even after witnessing the F-35 program firsthand.
2033 for 4th gen MK2? Wow