MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Bon Plan]

We only need to deal with the Brits and maybe the italians/spanish. The amount of job creation the typhoon can bring for the British economy will be too big for them to miss. The only issue with the typhoon is the high life cycle cost. The typhoon may not be as good as a strike fighter like the rafale but it is pretty much the best aircraft when it comes to air defence and air superiority among all nato fighters especially with captor mk2. Considering we will be facing j-10,j-16 and j-20 which have huge radar ranges, typhoon is the only one that genuinely fits the bill. Plus all kinds of nato munitions can be integrated like the Gripen. The only thing it might not have is the mica ng but we get the amraams in our arsenal.

EF2000 door in india was closed by the GtoG Rafale deal.
Once you have one, you don't ordered the other, except for some rish country as Qatar, but not for military reasons, but political ones.

 

[Lolwa]

What is the real status of CAPTOR mk2 ?
Basic air to air : Yes.
More complexe air to air : maybe.
Air to ground : not yet.
This radar is too new, and unlike RBE2AESA can't use the software developped for older classical EF radar. RBE2AESA came with 15 years of software developpment behind it (PESA soft is 100% compatible with AESA. The contrary is not true).

Tbf the mk2 isn't even in service yet. It's most likely still in testing. Captor mk2 has EA/EW role (similar to the f-35)that the rbe2aesa doesn't have. Rest ot just has a bigger range and superior resolution. The mk0 & mk1 are slightly better than the rbe2aesa but the difference is not as major as in the mk2.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Captor mk2 has EA/EW role (similar to the f-35)that the rbe2aesa doesn't have.

With RBE2 XG, Radar, Spectra and communication will be fused in only one system so you will not be able to say that RBE2 AESA doesn't have EA/EW role.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Thales on board the Dassault Aviation Rafale​

• AESA RBE2
• SPECTRA
• FSO
• TALIOS
• AREOS
• CNI
• MDPU
• MMI
• Training and Simulation
• News

Mastering action in decisive moments

Armed forces are currently being reinforced everywhere in the world. In order to guarantee their sovereignty against any eventuality, countries wish to reinforce their air superiority by acquiring new resources, particularly by ensuring the availability of combat equipment able to accomplish several missions in the course of the same sortie. These missions are: air defence, reconnaissance, precision attacks on ground targets and the detection and tracking of targets at sea.

The Dassault Aviation Rafale meets these requirements and cover all these missions, particularly thanks to Thales electronics, which approximately accounts for 25% of the value of the platform.

Numerous batches of Rafale fighters have been ordered to Dassault Aviation by the French Armed Forces, covering a total of 234 aircraft for the French Air and Space Force and for the French Navy.

Several orders have also been signed with:
• Egypt, for a total of 55 Rafales
• India, for 36 Rafales
• Qatar, for 36 Rafales
• Greece, for 12 ex-French aircraft and 12 new-built Rafales
• Croatia, for 12 ex-French Rafales
• the United Arab Emirates, for 80 Standard F4 Rafales
• Indonesia, for 42 Rafales
• Serbia, for 12 Rafales

Thales supplies ultra-effective sensors: the fire control radar, named AESA RBE2, the self-protection system, SPECTRA, the electro-optic system, FSO, the targeting pod TALIOS and the reconnaissance system, AREOS. In parallel, Thales procures communications, navigation, identification and cockpit equipment, not forgetting missile seekers. Training, Simulation, support and services are also proposed.

All Thales equipment on board the Rafale aircraft contributes to the performance recorded in theatres of operation, particularly thanks to sensors, where the data is merged within the modular data processing unit, MDPU. This multi-sensor data fusion is a decisive factor, ensuring the Rafale stands out. This outcome was jointly achieved by Thales and Dassault Aviation and creates a link between the overall battle field surrounding the aircraft and the pilot's brain, with its unique ability to understand the implications of a tactical situation and take the best possible decision. Thanks to the system's computing power, the data fusion incorporates data from the AESA RBE2 electronic scanned array radar, the SPECTRA electronic warfare system, the FSO (Front Sector Optronics) system, IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) and datalinks.

By allowing the pilot to become a real tactical decision-maker rather than simply an analyst of sensors, and by equipping the Rafale with state-of-the-art equipment, Thales, along with Dassault Aviation, contributes to the air superiority of Air Forces in all decisive moments.

© Thales

AESA RBE2 Radar​

Equipped with the AESA RBE2 (Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar), the Rafale benefits from an electronic scanned array and an active antenna, keys to the aircraft performance. This radar is the first in Europe to be operationaland have demonstrated very high proficiency in several theatres.

This radar offers multiple benefits:

• its range has been increased by more than 50% compared with fire control radars from previous generations, ensuring compatibility with weapons such as Meteor;
• the increased reliability of the active antenna modules reduces the owning cost of the radar;
• the agile wave forms can be used to obtain very high resolution synthetic aperture images (SAR) in air-to-ground mode and to increase resistance to radar jamming. In addition, the agility of the radar brings a greater robustness and allows the pilot to deal with much more complex situations compared with a conventional radar. The pilot can therefore carry out an air / air mission and an air / ground mission simultaneously. He can instantly switch from exploring airspace to illuminating a ground scene, such as performing a ground strike mission. This reinforces the omnirole capacity of the Rafale, which can carry out all kinds of missions simultaneously and offers the pilot a gain in performance.

© E.RazRegards©Thales​

SPECTRA Electronic warfare systems​

The SPECTRA(Self-Protection Equipment Countering Threats to Rafale Aircraft) electronic warfare system is totally integrated in the Rafale and boosts survivability in the context of air-to-air and air-to-ground threats.

The SPECTRA equips the Rafale with a 360° multi-spectral warning system against enemy radars, missiles and lasers. The SPECTRA can detect threats over a long range and identify and locate these threats, allowing the pilot and the system to immediately react in the most suitable manner: electromagnetic jamming, infrared decoys, manoeuvres and combined actions.

In addition, thanks to the angular precision of its locating features, SPECTRA can be used to accurately locate threats on the ground in view of avoidance and targeting.

Thanks to precise and long-range detection and location capacities for airborne targets, the system can also help to prepare an early tactical situation awareness based on a library of embedded threats, defined by users.

This library is a key component of the system's performance. The protection provided on board the Rafale can thus be constantly improved, with absolute fluidity, according to the progress and evolution of operations.

© Thales - Temps Présent

Front Sector Optronics (FSO)​

The Front Sector Optronics(FSO) is integrated in the air frame just like AESA RBE2 and SPECTRA, and can discretely detect and identify airborne, naval and land targets over a long range, with high resolution angular targeting and laser telemetrics.

This sensor operates at optical wavelengths and is invulnerable to radar jamming. FSO helps to effectively appraise the tactical situation and reinforces the aircraft's ability to operate in difficult environments.

The laser systems used to measure the distance to the target guarantee high precision 3D location for the FSO. Its visible spectrum options are particularly useful with its narrow field to identify possible targets in situations where visual contact is necessary according to combat rules, or with warnings requiring a rapid response.

© Thales

TALIOS targeting pod​

The TALIOS(Targeting Long-range Identification Optronic System) pod is equipped with top-down and bottom-up datalinks, and covers the entire range of missions, from intelligence to acquiring and pursuing targets. The pod is able to scan a large area, identify targets and immediately switch to acquisition and pursuit mode for these targets.

Its high resolution and ability to see the colour situation simplifies the tasks of crew. Thales has also developed the "Permanent Vision" mode to assist pilots. This mode can be used to incorporate the image entered by TALIOS in a 3D map. The crew can therefore accurately locate the area filmed by the pod. Several visual indicators provide complementary real-time information on the tactical situation.

© Thales

AREOS airborne observation and reconnaissance system​

The AREOS(Airborne REcce Observation System), known as Reco NG in France, is designed to meet all operational requirements on board the Rafale, based on miscellaneous scenarios and possible weather conditions. This pod integrates new-generation digital technology in terms of both the selected sensor and detection solutions and real-time/deferred transmission capabilities. AREOS can reduce cycle times for detection, decision and action, ensuring a faster response to changing mission requirements. Thanks to its automatic collection modes for operational images, AREOS can be simply integrated in the Rafale.

© Thales

Communications, Navigation, Identification (CNI)​

The full CNI suite includes voice communications, tactical datalinks, en route navigation and landing systems (Radalt, TACAN & MMR), and IFF identification functions (friend/foe). Digital receivers/transmitters allow the aircraft to manage secure and non-secure voice modes, datalinks and image transmissions for air-to-air and air-to-ground communications in the VHF and UHF bandwidths.

Tactical datalinks​

Tactical datalinks offer a secure datalink, with an appraisal of the tactical situation, for command and control, electronic warfare, commands and reports, flight information and aircraft-to-aircraft data. In addition to the key contributors in combined air operations, this data is used with friendly aircraft in the context of training, with air and land command and control centres, forward air controllers, etc.

Combined IFF interrogator Transponders​

The IFF Thales BlueGate TSB 2500 is a combined interrogator transponder, which fully satisfies civilian mode requirements. They include modes S, NATO with modes 4/5 and/or secure national modes (NSM). Furthermore, the Rafale is equipped with an E-Scan version including an Antenna Control Unit (ACU), which can be used to direct the antenna electronically.

© Thales

MDPU​

In essence, the “multi-sensor data fusion” concept implemented into the Rafale allows the pilot to act as a true “tactical decision maker”, rather than being only a sensor operator.

Designed and integrated by Dassault aviation, and developed and produced by Thales, the Rafale modular computer MDPU (“Modular Data Processing Unit”) accomplishes this data fusion.

Implementation of the “multi-sensor data fusion” into the Rafale translates into accurate, reliable and strong tracks, uncluttered displays, reduced pilot workload, quicker pilot response, and eventually into increased situational awareness.

It is a full automated process carried out in three steps:

• Establishing consolidated track files and refining primary information provided by the sensors,
• Overcoming individual sensor limitations related to wavelength / frequency, field of regard, angular and distance resolution, etc, by sharing track information received from all the sensors, assessing the confidence level of consolidated tracks, suppressing redundant track symbols and decluttering the displays

It hinges on the computing power of the MDPU to process data from the RBE2-AESA radar, the “Front Sector Optronic” (FSO) system, the SPECTRA EW system, the IFF, the MICA infrared seekers, and the data link.

The MDPU is the cornerstone of the upgradeability of the Rafale. It allows a seamless integration of new weapons and new capabilities to maintain the warfighting relevance of the Rafale over the years as tactical requirements evolve, and as the computer industry keeps rolling out new generations of processors and software.

© Thales

Advanced Man Machine Interface (MMI)​

Thales’ powerful visualisation tools provide instant situational awareness for the pilot and support well-informed tactical decisions. The MMI solution includes a combined head-up/head level display and lateral displays.

© Alex Paringaux​

Training and Simulation​

Thales, Sogitec and Dassault Aviation have jointly developed four training centres in France for the purposes of training Rafale pilots. The French Air Force operates simulation centres in Saint-Dizier and Mont-de-Marsan for flight training on this aircraft. The third Rafale simulation centre dedicated to the Aéronavale is located at the Landivisiau base. The fourth, smaller centre is located on the aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle. The first three simulation centres have the capacity to function as a network in order to complete all joint training procedures. The simulator cockpits recreate a realistic environment for Rafale pilots, who can fly individual or collective missions in a complex tactical environment, including air combat, using the Datalink 16, ground attacks, in-flight refuelling, take-offs and landings from aircraft carriers, all in consideration of weather conditions. These training and simulation solutions are adaptable for export.

© Alex Paringaux

Service and Support​

Support and service dedicated to the Rafale are available in different configurations, reducing life cycle costs, ensuring the operational performance of each on-board system and raising operational readiness. This innovative way of managing in-service support, called “Performance Based Logistics”, is based on guaranteed availability of equipment from the industry.

In France, in order to improve efficiency, the support and service of several suppliers are brought together in a global contract called RAVEL.

Thales also proposes these various support and service configurations to Rafale export markets.

​

 

[Milspec]

It seems RST has taken my criticism to heart & penned a long list of complaints full of passive aggression like a good old cry baby instead of treating what I say as constructive criticism & mending his ways.

I've recently declared that the MRFA is redundant. If it's not coming in time to face up to the single biggest threat to our sovereignty , it's not needed. We've missed the bus. Time to fully focus our attention to domestic alternatives.

It's me being realistic not disillusioned. It's called taking stock of the situation & fighting with what we have rather than what we wish we had. Not surprised in the least RST is sanguine about the whole situation. Must be leading a very sheltered life .

The forces aren't interested in it coz they're not invested in the product development cycle but love imports for reasons we all know but I won't get into here . That's one of the positive developments of this government. They've literally dragged the armed forces to focus on indigenization.

Have been successful with the IN & IAF though the former had a detailed plan since very early on indigenization for a whole host of reasons & went about the path of incremental growth . IAF has just gotten onto the bandwagon. Not much success with the IA though.

IA wants some improvement on them & meanwhile wants some imported stuff ( & we're supposed to take the IA or RST seriously ) whereas Armenia with similar hilly terrain has gone right ahead & bought the very same ATAGS for they've a fire lit under their backsides . Not so with our top brass.

Some existential conflicts are more existential for those facing the enemy as compared to the others back in HQ as we saw in the 1962 conflict.

Yeah , well the Stryker was Jizia to the US & the WhAP been selected by the Moroccan Army over the Chinese offering. This is precisely what gets my goat with RST. This suppression of information ,the peddling of his agenda , selective quoting of facts , obfuscation etc as if he's an interested party in all this with a lot at stake.

Yeah . All one has to do is go to the thread on the HTT-40 & check out pages 1-20 or 25 to see the number of somersaults RST took apart from his favourite activity of goal post shifting.

The issue was always the induction of HTT-40 over the Pilatus & never about the costs ( though that too was a consideration ) or the date of its induction. As usual he assembled all the evidence , came to the wrong conclusions & having pursued a faulty line of argument , got beaten black & blue by various members declaring victory at the end by proclaiming the date of induction would be the mid 2020s which was never the bone of contention to begin with .

You guys ought to take a look at this . @Gautam ; @Milspec & everybody else who was present then . Padla tari paay var.


All those projects are delayed for different reasons.

I've news for RST. I'm not on twitter since May 21 when myself & a few others got permabanned for getting into a massive online fight with Khalistanis , essentially overseas ones from Brampton Kaneda where nearly 3-4 dozen of them mass reported a few ids who went head on with them.

RST lost whatever little credibility he enjoyed by quoting The Irish Times , not that he enjoyed much credibility to begin with. Even this forum's resident imbecile - Paddy has never ever quoted that daily or any other publication from Paddyland.

Maolankar isn't wrong. He speaks from bitter experience of 40+ years when RST here was in liquid form . However his being suspicious apart , I don't foresee a problem with the TEDBF . The IN may have put the TEDBF on the backburner just to the see the Rafale M come through but they're committed to it & so is the GoI.
I'm sure we'd see the CCS approval for the TEDBF next year or by 2026. However I've not kept track of this project. No clue if it's completed its CDR.

I hope RST notes the contradiction in his post . OTOH he's alleging the GoI is beholden to big industry here & OTOH he's saying it's curbed imports. Well big industry is always interested in money making , if not by playing commission agents then thru JVs where they get to import products , assemble it here & claim indigenisation. It's an old trick.

As far as the rest of his blah goes , RST talks as if he's privy to all that goes on in the government. Waitaminute , I'm actually referring to a guy who a self declared MPD patient. He actually once posted he had 3 views on a subject - one from the PoV of the developer , one from the PoV of the user & the third being that of a lay person. That's whom we're dealing with here.

Further just because people out here are more realistic or to be more precise don't share RST's insane optimism doesn't mean they're pessimistic.

It started out because back in the day RST used to literally bull sh!t by the tons & he'd do so on every topic under the sun even on ones where he had no knowledge whatsoever to speak of. Beyond a point it got tiresome & somebody had to kick sense into him . There're only so many fairy tales you can listen to before life happens.
I certainly am not fighting to kill time. That's probably what RST does. I live a sad life. Apart from the occasional insomnia , novels , TV shows , movies or web series just don't amuse me . It has to be the real thing for me .

Hence I log on to Strategic Front to be entertained by 3 samples - Paddy , Sweetie & RST. And I'm easily entertained. At the very least the one in the middle has age as an excuse , the other two are just class acts. They live in a world all their own & if Paddy's daft , RST is delusional.

But they provide me with good entertainment otherwise why would I be in a place where the participants in the present are much less than what it started out with .

There's no optimism & realism with RST . It's insane optimism bordering on mania. If I didn't know better I'd say he needs help . Pronto.

The MRFA as it stands now SHOULD be relegated to the bin for reasons I've already offered in so many posts out here in the past few days . Will it ? I've no clue. Then again when has logic ever been a strong point with our armed forces or the government here ?

Hypernationalistic forum? I got banned for tangling with a foreigner . That's how hyper nationalistic this forum is . Perhaps RST should spend time on BRF or Other forum or even Twitter. He'd emerge within a few days severely mauled with the imprints of several footwear on his bottom for his nonsensical views which he'd then conveniently blame on a hypernationalistic audience.

Yeah . We were discussing the tangle between HAL & the IN regarding the NUH . The IA & IAF have already chosen to go ahead with it irrespective of whatever flimsy objections RST raises . The NUH was never meant to be in the IN . Yet it will be .

RN they're undergoing trials followed by LSP & then full production which means good bye Ka -226 or whatever it was the IN was intent on replacing it with . And before RST goes on donning his pedantic avatar like the man child he is I'm referring to the combination of the ALH & NUH or whatever nomenclature the IN has assigned it that the IN plans on inducting.

It's not contrariarinism . It's called a shout for help. I can refer a couple of doctors from NIMHANS - all distant cousins with splendid credentials. No more lobotomy. Things are much more humane nowadays though God knows it's a mistake to have banned lobotomy. Some people can't be cured without it.

I always respect comedians. It's too serious a job to be left to comics. Paddy believes every single word he types to be true. Just like RST.
Besides I always suspected RST was familiar with the anatomy of ONLY one gender ever since that bumming 16 year old girls fiasco. Initially I thought there were just 1 or 2 of that kind here . Now it's confirmed there's a third one . I've nothing against this kind . I'd sincerely request RST to stop hitting on me & focus his attention on Paddy or sweetie.

That UK France symbolism was used only because a Frenchman posed the question. Had anyone else done so obviously my answer would be different.

The key word in that post was maturity. As far as foundation in technical matters go, /bharatiya nagarik sainik has been tearing his hair coming up with the same set of complaints others have previously , in that 6th gen FA thread . Now he's not a regular here nor does he go through every thread to dissect RST's MO yet he's reached the same conclusions.

And he's not the only one . Earlier there was a sophomore here with the user ID /panzerfaust or something similar. He took a shine to RST & beat him black & blue too. It's a recurring theme which repeats itself every once in a year. Some newbie comes in , takes a shine to RST & then proceeds to trash him .

If Bob has a problem with everyone the problem is Bob.

Incidentally BNS's posted SS of RST's answers on the AMCA thread on Other forum where members there are enjoying a good laugh. So if RST chooses to disgrace Other forum with his presence someday as opposed to gracing it , members there wouldn't need an introduction to him . They'd already be acquainted with his shenanigans.

Yup. What's 2+2 ? That's the kind of logic we're used to seeing with RST . And the kind of questions we're used to seeing & answering . What if IUSAV fails ? What if Mk-2 fails ? What if the AMCA series fails ? And on & on...

The F-35 failed coz they combined 3 different aircraft into one to begin with & then complicated things by overloading it with features. Had they followed the principle of incrementalism like the French did with Rafale or the makers of the Eurofighter did in half measures instead of going the whole hog things would've been different.

Conclusion - Just another example of RST not knowing what he's talking about. Why do I get the impression this guy has not worked a professional job at all least of all an engineering company ? He just doesn't know elementary stuff that goes into development or mfg including design philosophies or mfg philosophies.

I used to be a strong DFMEA engineer out of college and think PFMEA's are a waste of time. Looking at our defence dealings, there should be a PFMEA for every strategic project even for high level goals set for them.

 

[Bon Plan]

Captor mk2 has EA/EW role (similar to the f-35)that the rbe2aesa doesn't have.

Why RBE2 couldn't ?
The two are working in the same wave length, if I remember well, so the two may be able to make EA and EW role in X band. isn't it?

 

[_Anonymous_]

I used to be a strong DFMEA engineer out of college and think PFMEA's are a waste of time. Looking at our defence dealings, there should be a PFMEA for every strategic project even for high level goals set for them.

PFMEA is a function of indigenous efforts usually but given we used to assemble / mfg practically all the FAs in our AF fleet I wonder how much weightage we've given to this function. Perhaps given your experience in HAL you can throw some light on this phenomenon there.

However given we're going down the indigenous route as far as all our armed services are concerned I agree we'd have to factor this in .

Remains to be seen if we do so by design or are forced into it which is our usual MO.

 

[dinggo99]

I used to be a strong DFMEA engineer out of college and think PFMEA's are a waste of time. Looking at our defence dealings, there should be a PFMEA for every strategic project even for high level goals set for them.

This talk, frustrating bullshit though they are, is no longer good enough; we need action. It’s time to focus on what matters, like the MRFA, not arguments. Hope things change soon!

 

[Milspec]

PFMEA is a function of indigenous efforts usually but given we used to assemble / mfg practically all the FAs in our AF fleet I wonder how much weightage we've given to this function. Perhaps given your experience in HAL you can throw some light on this phenomenon there.

However given we're going down the indigenous route as far as all our armed services are concerned I agree we'd have to factor this in .

Remains to be seen if we do so by design or are forced into it which is our usual MO.

I am going one high level up, an aircraft high-level subsystem. Control arch, Frame components, Full Airframe, Propulsion, armament, Radar, Avionics. All subsystems procured or manufactured should also be subjected to risk score.
Propulsion, radar and Avionics would have yielded high enough score for 2ns or 3rd options.
Some VA/VE would have been good to increase the size of the fuselage to accommodate different powerplants with adapter rings. Wouldn't have been tied to GE with the hip.

 

[Milspec]

This talk, frustrating bullshit though they are, is no longer good enough; we need action. It’s time to focus on what matters, like the MRFA, not arguments. Hope things change soon!

Stay in the circuit for a while, you will be jaded like us too. @_Anonymous_ it's so refreshing to see members excited, angry, engaged in defence projects. And amusing that we sound like bitter old uncles.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Some VA/VE would have been good to increase the size of the fuselage to accommodate different powerplants with adapter rings. Wouldn't have been tied to GE with the hip.

Could you elaborate on this ?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Stay in the circuit for a while, you will be jaded like us too. @_Anonymous_ it's so refreshing to see members excited, angry, engaged in defence projects. And amusing that we sound like bitter old uncles.

As long as he doesn't turn into another you know who to turn his frustration into a cope & subject us to fairy tales it's all fine by me .

20 years ago in our youth it was the progress of the LCA which frustrated us. This generation has the MRFA . Sincerely hope the next generation don't tear their hair & have heartburn over the AMCA .

 

[Lolwa]

Why RBE2 couldn't ?
The two are working in the same wave length, if I remember well, so the two may be able to make EA and EW role in X band. isn't it?

It's dependent on spectra. But the rbe2aesa directly doesn't jam. Typhoon will use the captor mk2 to jam although they have the praetorian Dass but spectra is more refined considering it jammed the Egyptian su-35's.
There are reports that Qatar wargammed it's rafale against it's typhoons with the mk0 radar and typhoon came out to be the superior of the two. That I had read a while ago but I can't seem to find any articles anymore. So maybe it was fake.