MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    237
T/w really doesn't matter when it comes to fifth gen since they are all rated to fly at 1.8 mach max. It's the power output that it's avionics and radar will get that will give it a bigger range. Compare super hornet and f-15EX radar ranges.

Some made up drawings on **** are not any real proof.

Difference is their empty shell is flying. We don't even know when our empty shell will fly. We don't even mk2 prototype out yet.
What stage of brainrot at are you? T/W doesn't matter? F-22 is Mach 1.8? Power Output depends on Gearbox and Engine and not on Plane. Whatever that Kaan is, it uses F110 engines- the same ones used on F-15? Can we call F-15 fifth gen then?

What is the use of empty shell flying? I mean are you in your right mind spewing shit?
 
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It seems RST has taken my criticism to heart & penned a long list of complaints full of passive aggression like a good old cry baby instead of treating what I say as constructive criticism & mending his ways.

I've recently declared that the MRFA is redundant. If it's not coming in time to face up to the single biggest threat to our sovereignty , it's not needed. We've missed the bus. Time to fully focus our attention to domestic alternatives.

It's me being realistic not disillusioned. It's called taking stock of the situation & fighting with what we have rather than what we wish we had. Not surprised in the least RST is sanguine about the whole situation. Must be leading a very sheltered life .

The forces aren't interested in it coz they're not invested in the product development cycle but love imports for reasons we all know but I won't get into here . That's one of the positive developments of this government. They've literally dragged the armed forces to focus on indigenization.

Have been successful with the IN & IAF though the former had a detailed plan since very early on indigenization for a whole host of reasons & went about the path of incremental growth . IAF has just gotten onto the bandwagon. Not much success with the IA though.

IA wants some improvement on them & meanwhile wants some imported stuff ( & we're supposed to take the IA or RST seriously ) whereas Armenia with similar hilly terrain has gone right ahead & bought the very same ATAGS for they've a fire lit under their backsides . Not so with our top brass.

Some existential conflicts are more existential for those facing the enemy as compared to the others back in HQ as we saw in the 1962 conflict.

Yeah , well the Stryker was Jizia to the US & the WhAP been selected by the Moroccan Army over the Chinese offering. This is precisely what gets my goat with RST. This suppression of information ,the peddling of his agenda , selective quoting of facts , obfuscation etc as if he's an interested party in all this with a lot at stake.

Yeah . All one has to do is go to the thread on the HTT-40 & check out pages 1-20 or 25 to see the number of somersaults RST took apart from his favourite activity of goal post shifting.

The issue was always the induction of HTT-40 over the Pilatus & never about the costs ( though that too was a consideration ) or the date of its induction. As usual he assembled all the evidence , came to the wrong conclusions & having pursued a faulty line of argument , got beaten black & blue by various members declaring victory at the end by proclaiming the date of induction would be the mid 2020s which was never the bone of contention to begin with .

You guys ought to take a look at this . @Gautam ; @Milspec & everybody else who was present then . Padla tari paay var.


All those projects are delayed for different reasons.

I've news for RST. I'm not on twitter since May 21 when myself & a few others got permabanned for getting into a massive online fight with Khalistanis , essentially overseas ones from Brampton Kaneda where nearly 3-4 dozen of them mass reported a few ids who went head on with them.

RST lost whatever little credibility he enjoyed by quoting The Irish Times , not that he enjoyed much credibility to begin with. Even this forum's resident imbecile - Paddy has never ever quoted that daily or any other publication from Paddyland.

Maolankar isn't wrong. He speaks from bitter experience of 40+ years when RST here was in liquid form . However his being suspicious apart , I don't foresee a problem with the TEDBF . The IN may have put the TEDBF on the backburner just to the see the Rafale M come through but they're committed to it & so is the GoI.
I'm sure we'd see the CCS approval for the TEDBF next year or by 2026. However I've not kept track of this project. No clue if it's completed its CDR.

I hope RST notes the contradiction in his post . OTOH he's alleging the GoI is beholden to big industry here & OTOH he's saying it's curbed imports. Well big industry is always interested in money making , if not by playing commission agents then thru JVs where they get to import products , assemble it here & claim indigenisation. It's an old trick.

As far as the rest of his blah goes , RST talks as if he's privy to all that goes on in the government. Waitaminute , I'm actually referring to a guy who a self declared MPD patient. He actually once posted he had 3 views on a subject - one from the PoV of the developer , one from the PoV of the user & the third being that of a lay person. That's whom we're dealing with here.

Further just because people out here are more realistic or to be more precise don't share RST's insane optimism doesn't mean they're pessimistic.

It started out because back in the day RST used to literally bull sh!t by the tons & he'd do so on every topic under the sun even on ones where he had no knowledge whatsoever to speak of. Beyond a point it got tiresome & somebody had to kick sense into him . There're only so many fairy tales you can listen to before life happens.
I certainly am not fighting to kill time. That's probably what RST does. I live a sad life. Apart from the occasional insomnia , novels , TV shows , movies or web series just don't amuse me . It has to be the real thing for me .

Hence I log on to Strategic Front to be entertained by 3 samples - Paddy , Sweetie & RST. And I'm easily entertained. At the very least the one in the middle has age as an excuse , the other two are just class acts. They live in a world all their own & if Paddy's daft , RST is delusional.

But they provide me with good entertainment otherwise why would I be in a place where the participants in the present are much less than what it started out with .

There's no optimism & realism with RST . It's insane optimism bordering on mania. If I didn't know better I'd say he needs help . Pronto.

The MRFA as it stands now SHOULD be relegated to the bin for reasons I've already offered in so many posts out here in the past few days . Will it ? I've no clue. Then again when has logic ever been a strong point with our armed forces or the government here ?

Hypernationalistic forum? I got banned for tangling with a foreigner . That's how hyper nationalistic this forum is . Perhaps RST should spend time on BRF or Other forum or even Twitter. He'd emerge within a few days severely mauled with the imprints of several footwear on his bottom for his nonsensical views which he'd then conveniently blame on a hypernationalistic audience.

Yeah . We were discussing the tangle between HAL & the IN regarding the NUH . The IA & IAF have already chosen to go ahead with it irrespective of whatever flimsy objections RST raises . The NUH was never meant to be in the IN . Yet it will be .

RN they're undergoing trials followed by LSP & then full production which means good bye Ka -226 or whatever it was the IN was intent on replacing it with . And before RST goes on donning his pedantic avatar like the man child he is I'm referring to the combination of the ALH & NUH or whatever nomenclature the IN has assigned it that the IN plans on inducting.

It's not contrariarinism . It's called a shout for help. I can refer a couple of doctors from NIMHANS - all distant cousins with splendid credentials. No more lobotomy. Things are much more humane nowadays though God knows it's a mistake to have banned lobotomy. Some people can't be cured without it.

I always respect comedians. It's too serious a job to be left to comics. Paddy believes every single word he types to be true. Just like RST.
Besides I always suspected RST was familiar with the anatomy of ONLY one gender ever since that bumming 16 year old girls fiasco. Initially I thought there were just 1 or 2 of that kind here . Now it's confirmed there's a third one . I've nothing against this kind . I'd sincerely request RST to stop hitting on me & focus his attention on Paddy or sweetie.

That UK France symbolism was used only because a Frenchman posed the question. Had anyone else done so obviously my answer would be different.

The key word in that post was maturity. As far as foundation in technical matters go, /bharatiya nagarik sainik has been tearing his hair coming up with the same set of complaints others have previously , in that 6th gen FA thread . Now he's not a regular here nor does he go through every thread to dissect RST's MO yet he's reached the same conclusions.

And he's not the only one . Earlier there was a sophomore here with the user ID /panzerfaust or something similar. He took a shine to RST & beat him black & blue too. It's a recurring theme which repeats itself every once in a year. Some newbie comes in , takes a shine to RST & then proceeds to trash him .

If Bob has a problem with everyone the problem is Bob.

Incidentally BNS's posted SS of RST's answers on the AMCA thread on Other forum where members there are enjoying a good laugh. So if RST chooses to disgrace Other forum with his presence someday as opposed to gracing it , members there wouldn't need an introduction to him . They'd already be acquainted with his shenanigans.

Yup. What's 2+2 ? That's the kind of logic we're used to seeing with RST . And the kind of questions we're used to seeing & answering . What if IUSAV fails ? What if Mk-2 fails ? What if the AMCA series fails ? And on & on...

The F-35 failed coz they combined 3 different aircraft into one to begin with & then complicated things by overloading it with features. Had they followed the principle of incrementalism like the French did with Rafale or the makers of the Eurofighter did in half measures instead of going the whole hog things would've been different.

Conclusion - Just another example of RST not knowing what he's talking about. Why do I get the impression this guy has not worked a professional job at all least of all an engineering company ? He just doesn't know elementary stuff that goes into development or mfg including design philosophies or mfg philosophies.
 
What stage of brainrot at are you? T/W doesn't matter? F-22 is Mach 1.8? Power Output depends on Gearbox and Engine and not on Plane. Whatever that Kaan is, it uses F110 engines- the same ones used on F-15? Can we call F-15 fifth gen then?
Calm your tits. The f-22 ain't flying mach 2 all the time. Most aerial combat happens between mach 1.4 and mach 1.6 at best that has been the case since Vietnam war. Fifth gen don't require t/w because they will act as snipers using their bvr missiles, the f-22 was developed entirely with that role in mind. It is a good dogfighter but that was in case a peer fighter could close in the distance.
The kaan will have a total power of 260 KN compared to kf-21 and amca's 196 KN that will allow it to carry a far bigger radar with a higher power output. The f-15EX is considered 4.5 gen and is powered by the same engine as the KAAN. KAAN is just an f-15 with fifth gen shaping which is good enough against any fighter that's not the f-35 or f-22.

What is the use of empty shell flying? I mean are you in your right mind spewing shit?
They are doing flight tests already have an aesa radar in development and developing an eots. We have drawings from Twitter and ****. Stop being delusional and realise where we stand. The Turks were producing airframe parts for the f-35. It's you who is ranting and spewing shit
 
^^F-22 supercruises at 1.8 Mach mate. Its top speed is well above Mach 2.0. Su-57, with AL-51F, shall supercruise at ~ Mach 2.0.

So not all 5th gen jets are limited to Mach 1.8.
The j-20,su-57 and f-22 all fly around mach 2 and above. The f-35,j-31,KAAN, kf-21 and amca's top end is around mach 1.8. Only the f-22 can supercruise out of them all. Su-57 is a half baked product at best not a true fifth gen but we all know this here. My point is that t/w isn't as important as power generation for avionics. Just look at the russo-ukrainian air war. The ruski flankers are basically lobbing r-37m's from within russian airspace and taking out ukie mig-29's. That's entirely because of the bigger radar advantage and a missile that can go as far.
In our present situation typhoon and rafale offer that but meteors are expensive compared to your standard amraam. It would be even better if we could integrate the r-37m on the mki's once virupaksha gets integrated.
The PLAAF already has the pl-15. Pl-17 and pl-21 are essentially vapour-ware but we need something to counter that. If the rafales cannot be procured then typhoons are the best option & the eurofighter group is itself desperate for sales.
Amca is itself in the same timeline as gcap and kf-21. We just are not positioned and we would end up needing fifth gens sooner or later too if the PLAAF production numbers of j-20 are indeed true.
 
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Calm your tits. The f-22 ain't flying mach 2 all the time. Most aerial combat happens between mach 1.4 and mach 1.6 at best that has been the case since Vietnam war. Fifth gen don't require t/w because they will act as snipers using their bvr missiles, the f-22 was developed entirely with that role in mind. It is a good dogfighter but that was in case a peer fighter could close in the distance.
The kaan will have a total power of 260 KN compared to kf-21 and amca's 196 KN that will allow it to carry a far bigger radar with a higher power output. The f-15EX is considered 4.5 gen and is powered by the same engine as the KAAN. KAAN is just an f-15 with fifth gen shaping which is good enough against any fighter that's not the f-35 or f-22.


They are doing flight tests already have an aesa radar in development and developing an eots. We have drawings from Twitter and ****. Stop being delusional and realise where we stand. The Turks were producing airframe parts for the f-35. It's you who is ranting and spewing shit
I have been saying this since begening that KAAN will be far more advanced (thanks to NATO) & long legged than AMCA due to the engine choice. Your missile carrying capacity in internal configuration will be limited, probably range too. AMCA will be like LCA Tejas, a short legged aircraft.
The biggest issue is going to be PAF operating KAAN, the commonality of engine with F16 & KAAN will be an added advantage here.
 
Those two most powerfull politicians in india currently are from the same state which have least contribution to mi6litary personal participation. Dont expect any increase in military budget as long as these two were in power, for them money matters or atleast the core supporters who have influence on them.
2% of GDP is pretty much the ceiling, especially if OROP makes a come back. This is the key reason why the govt is pushing tri-service commands, downsizing support units and short service programs like Agniveer.

With the entry of the Adanis in the defence sector, the govt has come around to allocating greater budget to MII products, except those products have very little local value addition. Hermes 900, for example.

At least from the dhando perspective, the top 2 politicans should have cut through bureaucratic red tape and set up single window clearance for capital acquisitions.

7 plus years of trials and Chai biskoot for artillery purchases is ridiculous. Baba Kalyani has stated this is bad for business. All they do are site visits and photo-ops.

It's been two terms in power now and the long promised reforms are nowhere in sight.

For example, why CCS clearance when all acquisition proposals go through DAC vetting?
 
Unfortunately, a lot of it hasn't translated into orders. Our troops lack helmets, BPJs, night vision gear, combat boots. The Chinese have an overwhelming firepower advantage while our forces conduct trials upon trials of 155mm guns, SAMs, etc.

A lot of stuff people are concerned about is not a priority for the IA. And wherever there is priority, the IA is either waiting for local tech to catch up or were stymied by bureaucracy and the industrial lobby.

For example, IA wants next gen tech for infantry modernization, not current stuff. Any Indo-Pak war will be too short for current levels of tech to matter, and a long war with China will see the entry of Western infantry tech via military aid. So the priority is for tech that doesn't yet exist.

IA SAMs are already on their way. Akash and MRSAM orders have been placed. And QRSAM is still in development.

But then there are areas where the IA had progressed but were canceled by others. For example, SPAD-GMS, Spike, MANPADS and ATHOS contracts were canceled in lieu of indigenous technologies which are still not ready.

Anyway, the IA is still getting new stuff that people don't find sexy enough to talk about, like a new indigenous C-UAS with both soft and hard kill capabilities from Big Bang Boom and Zen Tech. There's a lot more in terms of EW, comms, satellites etc. Basically everything necessary to fight a modern war already have contracts. The rest that people are largely concerned about is just filling up numbers.

SSN is funded by the PMO, not the navy. MoF has stalled/pared down many IN projects like IAC-2 leading to compromises like Vikrant 2.

SSBN is funded by PMO. SSN belongs to the IN.

IAC-2 is fine. The choice is between a sister ship in less than 7 years, a conventional CATOBAR in 12 years or a nuke carrier in 20. Whatever is chosen will be based on the reality of the situation they are facing that we are not privy to as of today.

As the report states, the Pakistanis and Chinese are looking at our declining defence spending and not sound bytes from the liked of Rajnath Singh about retaking PoK, etc as a measure of our national will/intent.

The Chinese were smug in negotiating with Modi in Russia recently as they know their firepower advantage over us is overwhelming.

Pak has to survive their current economic situation first, and the Chinese are headed in the same direction. Reality is different from any reports. If they think they can fight a large country like India with weak economies, then they have bigger problems to deal with than we do. The fact that the Chinese had to roll back their 2020 antics is proof of that.

The CDS has asked the services run their own studies on force rationalization but progress has been slow.

The current CDS is ex-Army and therefore no stranger to the Army's manpower issues.

If one allows the CDS to change things, then his previous background will not matter, he will make changes in the other services too. That's why it's the service's responsibility to rationalize. Plus rationalization requires money. So even the CDS cannot wand wave away problems faced by each service. And any rationalization is stymied by funds.

For example, if you want to reduce numbers in exchange for tech, then you first have to get the tech, and then reduce numbers. But before that you have to conduct a study to figure out if reducing numbers make sense. And once you have figured out all such issues, only then can you rationalize.

And just because he's from the army doesn't make him an expert in all things army. Expertise in the military is distributed, not centralized.

A single service can manage logistics and maintenance issues better, creating a 'center of excellence'. Attack helicopters are flown by land forces across the world.

Our conditions are unique and require unique solutions. And we don't need to ape others, given our experience and knowledge, others are beginning to ape the Indian forces. That's why the Armenians are going for everything India has while under a real threat of annihilation.
 
2033 for 4th gen MK2? Wow

Correction, 4.5th gen. Which is fine considering even other major powers will continue building and operating 4.5th gen jets, all the way up to 2080 or so. Korea is planning on a further development of the FA-50 to F-50, and the USAF is planning a similar jet to compete with LCA Mk2 and Gripen E. They want to build 300+ of those.

In the meantime, China will continue building even older jets, J-10, J-15 and J-16. Russia has restartred the Mig-29 production line for Mig-35s. France will continue building Rafales into the 2040s. So we are all in the same boat.
 
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Look like I'm living rent-free in Ignorants' head. What an honor. Funny thing, I forgot quite a bit of what he posted, 'cause it's all that much irrelevant to me. Only substance matters.

So yeah, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, with the forces keeping up with my predictions, while Ignorants and his celebrities on BRF and whereverelse keep tearing their hairs out trying to figure out why the forces keep doing things based on my predictions.

And, as I said before, newbies or not, even experts are confused about why the forces operate they way they do. I'm not an expert, but I can research data and evaluate actions, so none of their actions are confusing to me. And when there's mismatch between reality and misplaced expectations, people become immature and lash out. This has been a common occurence.

Do we need a bigger defense budget? Nope. It's less than 2%, but anymore is not necessary as of now.
Will it increase? Big time, but over the course of a decade. As predicted years ago, the capital budet will increase much faster than the overall defense budget, while the revenue budget becomes more streamlined.

So some of my predictions for the next few years.
As long as US-India relations remain strong under Trump (another of my predictions), Strykers are coming, and in large numbers, enough to fill 10 or even 15 battalions. Guess there's gonna be a lot of hair tearing here. So will we buy more Chinooks and Guardians. More Apaches are definitely coming. Perhaps even manufacture 80 C-130Js, even though the C-390 is much more interesting, which I personally favor more than the C-130J.

MRFA, as predicted will start soon. P-75I, as predicated, will soon conclude. My bet is on Navantia.

PS: BNS may be wishing for a 6th gen fighter, but it's only part of his wishlist. The IAF canceled that dream long ago, when AMCA turned from a pre-5th gen jet powered by an F414 to a proper 5.5th gen jet. Sadly for him, the IAF's next jet is not going to be an NGAD/SCAF equivalent, that time is gone.

PPS: Why the frig would I not want an NGAD/SCAF equivalent? But I'm not the one with misplaced expectations. My goal is to operate and think alongside what the forces want. Even I have a ridiculous wishlist, I just understand how absolutely unrealistic such things are.

PPPS: As for Pilatus, with 75 trainers, we were training 100 pilots a year. With the additional 38, we could have gone for 150 pilots a year. This deal should have gone through regardless of the corruption. The govt provided the same leeway to Israeli companies involved in IAF deals earlier, so it wouldn't be the first time. And whatever was considered a scam here was legalized by Parrikar anyway. Furthermore a new stopgap Pilatus deal was canceled because HAL guaranteed quick delivery of HTT-40 to make up for the shortfall to avoid the IAF going for more Pilatus aircraft on lease/sale from other air forces. This is a very good example of the forces-hating narcissistic morons entering a realm of great importance. And that's why the IAF currently has a shortage of pilots, even with the jets we already have. Luckily, and ironically, we do not have more jets, or the IAF was planning on sending young personnel to the private sector and overseas for basic training, giving an opening for spies to infiltrate the forces. Yeah, that's the level of morons the forces have to deal with on a daily basis. We are currently dealing with the same level of risk if HTT-40 fails to deliver on time before Mk1As enter in force.
 
IA wants next gen tech for infantry modernization, not current stuff

Basically everything necessary to fight a modern war already have contracts

We all know how so-called next gen projects like F-INSAS and SATHI went. Even critical programs like TCS and LUH have been hanging afire for years.

There is no concept of incremental/spiral development in the IA. Its full spec or bust and its demoralizing for industry and troops in the line of fire.

. The choice is between a sister ship in less than 7 years, a conventional CATOBAR in 12 years or a nuke carrier in 20. Whatever is chosen will be based on the reality of the situation they are facing that we are not privy to as of today.
In asking for a 65k ton, EMALS carrier, the IN was clearly taking the long-term view, considering build-times, etc. It even dropped nuclear propulsion for IEP. Vikrant 2 is just as an employment prog.

If they think they can fight a large country like India with weak economies, the
We need to have credible deterrence against China or they and their minions (PK) will keep probing us, covertly and overtly. We can't have this happen year after year.

The fact that the Chinese had to roll back their 2020 antics is proof of that

Remember Op Parakram? The Pakistanis backed off eventually but not after a months-long mobilization that cost us billions. It's the same template.

Our conditions are unique and require unique solutions. And we don't need to ape others, given our experience and knowledge, others are beginning to ape the Indian forces.

These unique solutions are all well and good except the nation pays through its nose every time.

6 IA Apaches costing $800M is no joke. If only they'd adopted the same approach as the MQ-9B deal earlier.
 
We all know how so-called next gen projects like F-INSAS and SATHI went. Even critical programs like TCS and LUH have been hanging afire for years.

There is no concept of incremental/spiral development in the IA. Its full spec or bust and its demoralizing for industry and troops in the line of fire.

Not true. They are the most forward-looking of the three. As I said before, although the IA has been chastised to be the most import-heavy service, they will become the first to fully indigenise. They are the ones who have allowed the industry to grow the most and at the fastest time to the point where products being developed for them by the Indian industry is at the cutting edge of what's available in the world right now.

Even their import standards are so high that even foreign vendors have failed to meet them, and this is pushing the Indian industry to meet such a challenge. Their EW systems, comm systems, network etc, there are no international competitors. The ADB (through the industry) is working with the most cutting edge tech available in the world today. Relatively, the industry supporting the IAF and IN are a generation behind foreign companies.

The combination of emergency purchases and direct control over R&D has allowed them to progress a lot.

In asking for a 65k ton, EMALS carrier, the IN was clearly taking the long-term view, considering build-times, etc. It even dropped nuclear propulsion for IEP. Vikrant 2 is just as an employment prog.

As per the IN, Vik-2 meets requirements based on the technology available. There's nothing much they can do if the industry is yet to catch up.

We need to have credible deterrence against China or they and their minions (PK) will keep probing us, covertly and overtly. We can't have this happen year after year.

We have set up 2 Mountain Strike Corps. It's enough. If anything, we need to add 1 division each to both the corps. Plus just keep building more infra.

China's become way too distracted by the very aggressive Americans to do anything new to India. They are preparing for a Trump presidency, so we have 4-5 years of inactivity along the border now. If the Republicans continue to hold power, that's another 4 years.

Remember Op Parakram? The Pakistanis backed off eventually but not after a months-long mobilization that cost us billions. It's the same template.

We don't need to do that anymore. Against both countries.

These unique solutions are all well and good except the nation pays through its nose every time.

6 IA Apaches costing $800M is no joke. If only they'd adopted the same approach as the MQ-9B deal earlier.

The Apache deal covers a lot of ancillary expenses too, which will be used once larger orders are placed. The IA is figuring out how to use them before that.

MQ-9B is the product of a new procurement process.
 
I have been saying this since begening that KAAN will be far more advanced (thanks to NATO) & long legged than AMCA due to the engine choice. Your missile carrying capacity in internal configuration will be limited, probably range too. AMCA will be like LCA Tejas, a short legged aircraft.
The biggest issue is going to be PAF operating KAAN, the commonality of engine with F16 & KAAN will be an added advantage here.
Interesting. Let's see how the turks manage their geopolitics- GE is holding the critical cards there as well. Lots of hype around this plane whether it is a game changer or not will be seen after production.
 
Even their import standards are so high that even foreign vendors have failed to meet them, and this is pushing the Indian industry to meet such a challenge
Lol. That's because they are afflicted with a condition called 'brochure-itis' to use a BRF term.

There's likely no benchmarking against what is available on the market before setting GSQRs.

It's what has kept programs like Nag in perpetual testing phase. This will become harder to justify now that Indian products like ATAGS and WHAP are notching up intl sales.

per the IN, Vik-2 meets requirements based on the technology available. There's nothing much they can do if the industry is yet to catch up.
You mean all the chai biskoot with the Americans as part of the aircraft carrier JWG was for nothing? The tech is available, it's a question of cost.

We don't need to do that anymore. Against both countries.
One big lesson for the IA is to never take Chinese 'exercises' as routine ever again.

The Apache deal covers a lot of ancillary expenses too, which will be used once larger orders are placed. The IA is figuring out how to use them before that
It's a textbook case of turf battles/silos. It's been going on since Kargil when the IAF flatly refused taskings from IA commanders on the ground. Old habits die hard.
 
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I wonder why does RST think living inside my head is an honor when I wish I could reciprocate this gesture but in all sincerity can't for I've a life outside the virtual world unlike him . Every night or in between meetings or when I'm too stressed out , earlier I used to follow a routine of cigarettes & tea , but having given up smoking what's the best way to kill time & / or stress I asked myself.

Why , log in to Strat Front where at least 1/3 samples would be waiting there with a target painted on their backs. Never been disappointed till date. Don't wish to sound ungrateful but a big thanks to all 3 . I'd be entertainment starved without these clowns.

Which was the whole point & purpose of the previous post @I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Earlier I was a bit perturbed my hard hitting post would actually prompt RST to mend his ways . What a ghastly thought ?! I actually panicked . I'm mighty relieved to see this reassurance by RST that he will continue in the same vein.

I mean if I wanted facts there are dozens of places I could go to. But I crave entertainment . Hence faction , hence Strat Front , hence Paddy Sweetie & RST.

Of course experts would be confused at how the Indian armed forces operate. The former follow logic , the latter don't.

Ordinary people or experts aren't as blessed to have 3 in 1 insight like RST here who holds 3 PoVs on any given topic , as per his own admission - 1 from the developer's PoV , 2nd from the user's PoV & 3rd from the lay person PoV.

Not even Gods are blessed with this kind of insight except Mahadev. And now we've RST. Hopefully that third eye isn't in between his cheeks.

People usually have the tendency to shut the stable door after the horse had bolted. We'd be doing so twice though I sincerely hope we don't.

Trump or not doesn't make a difference , Indo US relations have gone beyond bipartisan politics as long as China's here .

So be it Stryker or Javelin or any other such weapon or platform from time to time we'd be paying the US , Jizia.

MRFA is our insurance policy against AMCA Mk-1 or LCA Mk-2 program either becoming horribly delayed or delivering sub optimal performance or both.

As far as Project 75 I goes either it goes into the cold storage for a good 4-5 years or TKMS should get it . I'd be very surprised if Navantia got it.

No clue about what BNS wants & in any case who wants another story teller when we already have one , however good the yarn he spins what with his wish list which he's at least honest enough to concede instead of indulging in faction mixing up reality & fantasy positioning it as facts instead of conjecture.

Another thing - he's better informed comes up with a better argument is more analytical & equally unhinged which makes him perfectly compliment RST here.

From the little I know , the MKI will start retiring from 2040 onwards unless we want to squeeze the last drop from them like the neighborhood sugarcane juice vendor does & the IAF did the MiG-21 & < 200 pilots paid for it with their lives. Hence we ought to consider their replacements N-O-W.

We could or should commission the studies for the requirements & the proto PSQR within a year or two & embark on tech development by 2030 , start out the assembly by 2040 & testing by 2045 followed by FOC by 2050.

Since we've chosen the AMCA to be our air superiority FA which makes it a successor to the MKI role wise not weight class wise , it follows that the 6th Gen or 6.5 Gen FA ( since ADA has chosen its own nomenclature here smartly designating AMCA as 5.5 Gen ) has to be an air strike FA with secondary air superiority role much like the F-35 .

Now whether we go the AHCA way as an equivalent replacement for the MKI without the role the latter plays which we should or we go the medium way as in Medium Strike Fighter Aircraft a la the AMCA way which we should avoid , I don't know which way will the powers that be will decide.

If RST only did purva paksha to see how ridiculous some of his posts couching his wish lists are masquerading as reality he wouldn't be making such statements. Poor chap. May not even know what purva paksha is. Anyway...


The issue is why should we be going in for a foreign trainer when we developed the previous analogue in house. If there was a slip up by HAL they should've been given a chance to redeem themselves. In any case that's exactly what happened.

As far as training pilots go , since 2016 we've inducted 40 Mk-1 36 Rafales & the remainder of the MKIs of which the Mk-1 consisted of 8 trainers which I've not kept track of as in if we've indeed mfgd them. So that's 90 odd FAs. I don't see how a shortage of 38 nos Pilatus's would've shut down the IAF or handicapped their training.

The real deal was always expected from 2024 onwards when we inducted the Mk-1a which has now been delayed. Meanwhile the HTT 40 would be undergoing mfg next year onwards.

This is an AF in transition from foreign makes to indigenous. There are bound to be slip ups delays etc. It goes with the territory.

To come back to RST & his line of argument , he spent the first dozen pages venting his spleen on how an AF couldn't have 2 types of basic trainers , then hopped on at the very last minute to the time factor in case HTT 40 was chosen , by which time it became known in the public domain that the Pilatus deal was tainted by graft to which RST immediately did a back flip as only he can agreeing that there was no alternative to the HTT 40 in these circumstances but the deal would be delayed which he's now spinning as the crux of the issue.

To those interested this was before the Galwan issue when the Chinese threat didn't loom large. In any case our AF is not exactly known for prudence in procurement policies . It's only now we're seeing coherence in their planning & action , a lot of which has got to do with their whole hearted participation in indigenous programs which isn't even 10 years old as of today.

As far as the IAF considering leasing basic trainers go , that's part & parcel of a transitioning AF . Embarassing yes but the message has to go thru - tedha hain par mera hain. Otherwise there's no end to this import circus mania .

I don't see why the HTT 40 production should be further delayed unless RST wishes it to be so to fulfill some childhood kink like - I told you so , which I wouldn't put beyond manchild.
 
Both are next decade programmes. However, in my opinion, MK2 will be inducted before IUSAV.

Ghatak has Internal weapons bay?
We have weapons compatible with IWB?
Weapon & missile testing using Ghatak will take longer time?
Kaveri dry also need to be certified?
Ghatak has anything needed from external help?

Wrt Mk2

Its more complex than Ghatak
Needs more safety margin in testing process
Depends on GE414, which is yet to be signed..
Recent Oneria testing for better aerodynamics of canard and air inlet design indicating first prototype or next design is still not frozen.
Weapons testing will be extensive including some heavier ones .
New cockpit with LAD & side stick.

Yeah both are next decade programs..

With prototype construction initiated, we ll see roll out in couple of years.
 
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The blk 3 jf-17 will have the first movers advantage with the pl-15.
No, JF-17C (block-3) doesn't carry PL-15.

Regarding KAAN, the one that flew was not supposed to fly, it is ground test plane hence fixed landing gear there will be full flight envelope worthy prototype built later iirc and the reason for this is I feel related to securing Qatari funding or something related to show confidence to investors kind of thing
more info:
 
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I have been saying this since begening that KAAN will be far more advanced (thanks to NATO) & long legged than AMCA due to the engine choice. Your missile carrying capacity in internal configuration will be limited, probably range too. AMCA will be like LCA Tejas, a short legged aircraft.
The biggest issue is going to be PAF operating KAAN, the commonality of engine with F16 & KAAN will be an added advantage here.
Nah the Pakistani f-16's use P&W engine while the kaan are using a more modern version of the ge f110. So engine commonality won't be an issue. The issue is KAAN will have decent amount of EW capabilities that we won't be able to counter.
 
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Nah the Pakistani f-16's use P&W engine while the kaan are using a more modern version of the ge f110. So engine commonality won't be an issue. The issue is KAAN will have decent amount of EW capabilities that we won't be able to counter.
Ok, i thought they were using same F110.
 
The f-15 literally has the best radar out of the bunch followed by eurofighters captor mk2. The designs maybe of the 70's. The tech is 2010+. Although typhoon is the best plane out of all along with the rafale.
What is the real status of CAPTOR mk2 ?
Basic air to air : Yes.
More complexe air to air : maybe.
Air to ground : not yet.
This radar is too new, and unlike RBE2AESA can't use the software developped for older classical EF radar. RBE2AESA came with 15 years of software developpment behind it (PESA soft is 100% compatible with AESA. The contrary is not true).