MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 36 14.6%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 192 77.7%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 1.6%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.4%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 11 4.5%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.6%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Total voters
    247
Lolwa said:
If we are not getting the f-5's there's no point getting the rafale. Presently the best plane IAF can but is the typhoon with the captor mk2
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Rafale was L1.
Rafale is inducted and IN will have it.
Rafale is performing better than intended in India.
And you want India to purchase the L2, increase the logistic nightmare and facing a future Germany deal halt? You are not serious.
 
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Bon Plan said:
Rafale was L1.
Rafale is inducted and IN will have it.
Rafale is performing better than intended in India.
And you want India to purchase the L2, increase the logistic nightmare and facing a future Germany deal halt? You are not serious.
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My point was for the present mrfa. In the previous mrfa the rafale and the superhornet blk 3 were the most mature aircrafts out of them all. The f-16 was too dated a design and no supercruise, the gripen was too US dependent and small, the typhoon did not have a working aesa. Rafale was the best option with supercruise and all aspect 4++ capability. This time it's different. The Eurofighter has a GaN radar, f-15EX would be offered with GaN radars most likely and this time Eurofighter might actually have a chance to go L1 if they forcefully do price manipulation which Eurofighter group has a reputation of. The purchase of the f4's in 40 numbers is great but if we want manufacturing now we need the f5 so that we can build up on that with the French. If the safran deal comes to fruition we might even re-engine the tejas mk2 and Rafales with the same engine.
But if the French don't bring atleast f5 upgradeability to the indian tender the Eurofighter will be the best contender along with f-15EX.
 
randomradio said:
2 Rafales a month will definitely give us all 114 by 2035. We are expected to get all 118 LCA Mk2s by the same time too.
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Which version will be we procuring. It will be an another foolish move like mki deal if all 114 is of same standard. Any thing less from F5 standard is not worthy move when China & pak going for sixth gen fighters. The deal should be a split between f5 & f6 version.
 
Bon Plan said:
No Gripen because it hurts Tejas.
No F35 because it hurts AMCA.
Juste remains Rafale.
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F-35 can be a possibility and is independent of rafale. If the mmrca goes to rafale there's an entire possibility we do a G2G with the Americans for 18-80 f-35A's. The f-35's should be block 4+ though.
F-35 and rafale fits differently in IAF.
The f-35 would be the tip of the spear while the rafale, lca mk2 will be the spear. While the shield will be the su-30 mki, lca mk1 and su-57. That's how IAF will have to take shape if it wants to take on the Chinese. We need our own stable of fourth,fifth and sixth gen fighters but right now for the next decade we won't be having any fifth gen aircraft unless we procure either the f-35 or su-57 or both considering we would need a long endurance fifth gen fighter that could stay in an air 2 air conflict against the j-20 and j-36 (I'm talking about the su-57 here).
 
Lolwa said:
F-35 can be a possibility and is independent of rafale. If the mmrca goes to rafale there's an entire possibility we do a G2G with the Americans for 18-80 f-35A's. The f-35's should be block 4+ though.
F-35 and rafale fits differently in IAF.
The f-35 would be the tip of the spear while the rafale, lca mk2 will be the spear. While the shield will be the su-30 mki, lca mk1 and su-57. That's how IAF will have to take shape if it wants to take on the Chinese. We need our own stable of fourth,fifth and sixth gen fighters but right now for the next decade we won't be having any fifth gen aircraft unless we procure either the f-35 or su-57 or both considering we would need a long endurance fifth gen fighter that could stay in an air 2 air conflict against the j-20 and j-36 (I'm talking about the su-57 here).
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F-35 the aircraft whose development never ends :ROFLMAO:
 
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @Speedster1, @Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik, @Ashwin, @marich01, @_Anonymous_, @Innominate, @YoungWolf,
@Aniruddha ,@Milspec, @Sathya, @harry ,@Ironhide, @Arctic Wolf et al.......

As myself have been predicting/harping for the last several years, finally one more prediction is about to come true:

bharatshakti.in

Rafale Surge: IAF Eyes 40 More Jets as Navy Deal Nears Signing

In a decisive move to shore up India’s dwindling air combat strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly preparing to procure 40 additional Rafale fighter jets from France through a government
bharatshakti.in bharatshakti.in

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1000014725.jpg
 
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Ashwin said:

At last a common sense news.
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Good development but I don't understand the rationale behind waiting so long for the follow-on order. Should've been progressed back in 2022 given RaGa's noise didn't impact the public mandate. Either MoD was sleeping or IAF top brass didn't push hard enough.
 
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Rafale Surge: IAF Eyes 40 More Jets as Navy Deal Nears Signing​

In a decisive move to shore up India’s dwindling air combat strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly preparing to procure 40 additional Rafale fighter jets from France through a government-to-government (G2G) deal—parallel to the imminent Rafale-M contract for the Indian Navy, which is likely to be signed in Delhi on April 28 or 29 when the French Defence Minister visits India.

Highly placed sources have confirmed to BharatShakti that high-level talks have been held recently between Indian and French officials, not just to conclude engine-related discussions with Safran for India’s helicopter programme but also to initiate groundwork on a second tranche of Rafale fighters for the IAF under what is being described as a fast-tracked MRFA-plus agreement.

This potential deal is separate from the Navy’s Rafale-M acquisition but is being viewed in strategic circles as part of a larger consolidation of India’s air combat ecosystem—centred around the French fighter platform. The IAF, still operating with only 31 squadrons against a sanctioned strength of 42.5, has flagged its operational crunch repeatedly over the last few years.

IAF’s Fighter Crisis: A Gap Too Wide

Earlier this year, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh underlined the force’s need to induct 35–40 new fighters annually to compensate for squadron depletions and legacy aircraft retirements. While Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is gearing up to deliver 97 Tejas Mk-1A jets by 2030, the pace of production, infrastructure readiness, and the sheer scale of requirements have forced the IAF to look outward—again.

The Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) project, aimed at inducting 114 foreign fighters under a competitive tender, has been in limbo with no Request for Proposal (RFP) issued. But insiders confirm that in light of urgent requirements and the operational familiarity with the Rafale platform, the French jet has emerged as the clear frontrunner—sidestepping the traditional contest route.

“Both sides have reached a strategic understanding. This is not just a purchase—it’s a continuity plan,” said a senior official familiar with the negotiations.

Navy’s Rafale-M Deal: The First Domino

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy is on the brink of signing a ₹63,000-crore (approx. $7.5 billion) contract for 26 Rafale-M fighters. Cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) earlier this month, the deal includes 22 single-seat carrier-based fighters and four twin-seat trainers. These jets will operate from INS Vikrant and replace the ageing MiG-29K fleet.

Deliveries are slated to begin around 2028, with full induction by 2031. Importantly, the Navy contract includes weapon packages, Astra missile integration, indigenous MRO facilities, and crew training—all of which are expected to boost the IAF’s Rafale ecosystem as well.

Ten of the IAF’s 36 Rafale fighters are also being upgraded under a parallel track to incorporate mid-air refuelling pods (buddy-buddy refuelling), enhanced sensors, and extended-range software suites, further underlining India’s long-term reliance on the Rafale platform.

Why Rafale, Again?

Combat-tested in Syria, Libya, and Mali and proven in Indian skies during high-altitude operations in Ladakh, the Rafale has become a linchpin in India’s deterrence posture. With advanced payload capabilities, Meteor air-to-air missiles, SCALP stand-off weapons, and AESA radar, it represents a generational leap over the IAF’s MiG-21, MiG-29, and Jaguar fleets.

Moreover, the near 95 per cent commonality between the IAF’s Rafale and the Navy’s Rafale-M ensures streamlined logistics, shared training modules, and reduced maintenance overhead—a rare convergence that makes a compelling case for standardization across services.

A G2G Model for Speed and Sovereignty

The shift away from open bidding under the MRFA framework to a G2G route is being framed as a strategic choice rather than a compromise. With threats evolving rapidly across two fronts and a timeline crunch for capacity building, the G2G model offers speed, assured delivery, and continuity.

Defence analysts argue that this approach also aligns with India’s ‘Make-in-India-for-the-World’ policy. Discussions are underway to ramp up domestic assembly, deepen industrial offsets, and create a robust MRO ecosystem for the Rafale in India—extending beyond just the IAF or Navy.

The Road Ahead: Momentum with Dassault

While competitors like the F-15EX, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Saab Gripen-E remain technically in contention under the original MRFA framework, the political and operational momentum is visibly tilted towards Dassault. The IAF’s familiarity with the Rafale, existing base infrastructure, and Navy interoperability gives the French aircraft a distinct edge.

If approved, the IAF’s second tranche of 40 Rafales will bring the total fleet strength to 76—equivalent to around four full squadrons. It would not only partially bridge the squadron deficit but also serve as a strategic counterbalance amid heightened regional military developments, including China’s rapid PLAAF modernization and Pakistan’s acquisition of J-10C fighters.
 
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Hydra said:
Which version will be we procuring. It will be an another foolish move like mki deal if all 114 is of same standard. Any thing less from F5 standard is not worthy move when China & pak going for sixth gen fighters. The deal should be a split between f5 & f6 version.
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MKI was expected to end its production in 2013 and an MLU was supposed to begin in 2015, with all sorts of new indigenous tech, like a new RAM coating DRDO developed at the time. HAL pushed it all the way to 2021. So if the production run is short, the F5 is sufficient. F6 will take time.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @Speedster1, @Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik, @Ashwin, @marich01, @_Anonymous_, @Innominate, @YoungWolf,
@Aniruddha ,@Milspec, @Sathya, @harry ,@Ironhide, @Arctic Wolf et al.......

As myself have been predicting/harping for the last several years, finally one more prediction is about to come true:

bharatshakti.in

Rafale Surge: IAF Eyes 40 More Jets as Navy Deal Nears Signing

In a decisive move to shore up India’s dwindling air combat strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly preparing to procure 40 additional Rafale fighter jets from France through a government
bharatshakti.in bharatshakti.in

View attachment 42381

View attachment 42382
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Follow-on Rafales off the shelf were always on the table - it would have been quite foolish of us to have spent so much money on ISEs & developing airbase infrastructure for 4 squadrons if we were only ever going to buy 2.

So the +2 squadrons always had to come in order to fully justify the expense of the 2016 deal. Unfortunately, we took too long to arrive at what was a no-brainer decision. Probably cuz we hung on to the false hope of getting the MMRCA 2.0/MRFA deal in time, but that never came.

Also, I don't think the G2G for +2 sqdns of Rafale and G2G for F-35 are in contention with each other. We need F-35 as a stop-gap for a separate requirement (which only AMCA can fulfill in the long term, not any MRFA contender).

But whether F-35 will come or not will be a political decision.
 
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Lolwa said:
My point was for the present mrfa. In the previous mrfa the rafale and the superhornet blk 3 were the most mature aircrafts out of them all. The f-16 was too dated a design and no supercruise, the gripen was too US dependent and small, the typhoon did not have a working aesa. Rafale was the best option with supercruise and all aspect 4++ capability. This time it's different. The Eurofighter has a GaN radar, f-15EX would be offered with GaN radars most likely and this time Eurofighter might actually have a chance to go L1 if they forcefully do price manipulation which Eurofighter group has a reputation of. The purchase of the f4's in 40 numbers is great but if we want manufacturing now we need the f5 so that we can build up on that with the French. If the safran deal comes to fruition we might even re-engine the tejas mk2 and Rafales with the same engine.
But if the French don't bring atleast f5 upgradeability to the indian tender the Eurofighter will be the best contender along with f-15EX.
Click to expand...
The EF2000 GaN radar is on the early stage of tests.... So far from being ready. And all the EF developpments are late because difficult to work together when you are 4.
Rafale will have its own GaN radar in 2030 (it is rumored that Spectra antennas are already built with GaN modules).
And Now that India has Rafale in the forces (Air and Navy) why do you want India to built something quite similar, best in air supremacy (but you have a wide fleet of Su30) but worst in air to ground missions ?
 
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Parthu said:
Follow-on Rafales off the shelf were always on the table - it would have been quite foolish of us to have spent so much money on ISEs & developing airbase infrastructure for 4 squadrons if we were only ever going to buy 2.

So the +2 squadrons always had to come in order to fully justify the expense of the 2016 deal. Unfortunately, we took too long to arrive at what was a no-brainer decision. Probably cuz we hung on to the false hope of getting the MMRCA 2.0/MRFA deal in time, but that never came.

Also, I don't think the G2G for +2 sqdns of Rafale and G2G for F-35 are in contention with each other. We need F-35 as a stop-gap for a separate requirement (which only AMCA can fulfill in the long term, not any MRFA contender).

But whether F-35 will come or not will be a political decision.
Click to expand...
US wants us to order 114 F-21s for MRFA(they are willing to provide high TOT), and that shall open the route towards IAF acquiring F-35As with ISE (in 40-60 number).

As I said previously, backdoor talks are on with US, France and Russia for F-35/Rafale/Su-57. GOI & IAF are now in full-sync. Chinese 6th gen jets like J-36/J-50 have literally shook them quite hard along with PAF aquiring J-35 soon. We're in right direction. More to come......
 
Parthu said:
Follow-on Rafales off the shelf were always on the table - it would have been quite foolish of us to have spent so much money on ISEs & developing airbase infrastructure for 4 squadrons if we were only ever going to buy 2.

So the +2 squadrons always had to come in order to fully justify the expense of the 2016 deal. Unfortunately, we took too long to arrive at what was a no-brainer decision. Probably cuz we hung on to the false hope of getting the MMRCA 2.0/MRFA deal in time, but that never came.

Also, I don't think the G2G for +2 sqdns of Rafale and G2G for F-35 are in contention with each other. We need F-35 as a stop-gap for a separate requirement (which only AMCA can fulfill in the long term, not any MRFA contender).

But whether F-35 will come or not will be a political decision.
Click to expand...

I think the main culprit was China's faster development, to the point where PAF will get 5th gen soon.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
US wants us to order 114 F-21s for MRFA(they are willing to provide high TOT), and that shall open the route towards IAF acquiring F-35As with ISE (in 40-60 number).

As I said previously, backdoor talks are on with US, France and Russia for F-35/Rafale/Su-57. GOI & IAF are now in full-sync. Chinese 6th gen jets like J-36/J-50 have literally shook them quite hard along with PAF aquiring J-35 soon. We're in right direction. More to come......
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PAF is anticipating Chinese 6th gen aircraft.
 
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Bon Plan said:
The EF2000 GaN radar is on the early stage of tests.... So far from being ready. And all the EF developpments are late because difficult to work together when you are 4.
Rafale will have its own GaN radar in 2030 (it is rumored that Spectra antennas are already built with GaN modules).
And Now that India has Rafale in the forces (Air and Navy) why do you want India to built something quite similar, best in air supremacy (but you have a wide fleet of Su30) but worst in air to ground missions ?
Click to expand...
Because rafale and carry as many meteors as the typhoon or gripen. It has more capacity in terms of weapon capacity but still cannot carry as many meteors. It's tactics for BVR and dogfighting are actually extremely similar to how IAF treats air combat(low altitude low speed ambush rather than maintaining higher altitude advantage with high speed to take out opponent which is a more american style way of fighting). The typhoon offers us the high speed high altitude style of options. The su-30mki really doesn't because of lack of good bvr missiles. We don't have the r-37m. Only the typhoon and f-15EX can give us this ability. The typhoon can carry 6 meteors or amraams and will launch it at a higher speed and altitude. IAF has good ground and pounders in their collection. Mirage, su-30mki, tejas, jaguar, rafale. We need more air superiority focused aircrafts that can also do ground and pound. Typhoon does it decently with the meteor,it also has kepd-350 and hope and hosbo, SDB 3's, brimstone , marte-er. Basically a bunch of European stand off munitions. That give us ability to manufacture a range of munitions in India that can be manufactured in India and re-exported back to OEM countries like France Italy, germany in case of situations like war,policy implementations. Redundancy needs to be created. Plus if we plan to join gcap even in a case of backup getting into the typhoon program will give us assistance in joining gcap.
I think in any case the rafale will be now produced in India. I just want the typhoon or f-15EX so that we can have a huge radar plane with a good capacity of carrying BVR.
 
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