Sadly, the fighters with the least performance and capability (F16 and F18), ended up with the smartest choices for industrial partners. They also have the cost and political advantages, hard to be ruled out this time.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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Sadly, the fighters with the least performance and capability (F16 and F18), ended up with the smartest choices for industrial partners. They also have the cost and political advantages, hard to be ruled out this time.
India’s HAL overruns aircraft building and upgrade deadlines
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 October 2018
India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has expressed "serious concern" over enduring delays by state-owned aeronautics and defence company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in supplying fighters, helicopters, and transport aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).
A recent internal MoD report revealed that HAL has also only licence-built 197 of the 222 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters it was contracted to deliver to the IAF by 2017, officials told Jane's on condition of anonymity. The 25 remaining platforms are only expected to be handed over by 2020-21, they added.
The report also pointed to a five-year delay in the series-production of the indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), 20 units of which were initially scheduled to have entered service by early 2017.
India’s HAL overruns aircraft building and upgrade deadlines | Jane's 360
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 October 2018
India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has expressed "serious concern" over enduring delays by state-owned aeronautics and defence company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in supplying fighters, helicopters, and transport aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).
A recent internal MoD report revealed that HAL has also only licence-built 197 of the 222 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters it was contracted to deliver to the IAF by 2017, officials told Jane's on condition of anonymity. The 25 remaining platforms are only expected to be handed over by 2020-21, they added.
The report also pointed to a five-year delay in the series-production of the indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), 20 units of which were initially scheduled to have entered service by early 2017.
India’s HAL overruns aircraft building and upgrade deadlines | Jane's 360
Buying fighter jets from abroad cheaper than manufacturing them at HAL, says Def Min
Manufacturing fighter jets at India’s public sector unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is costlier than buying them from the the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) abroad, according to a defence ministry audit, reported The Hindustan Times (HT).
The report comes at a time when there is a raging controversy over Modi government dumping a deal being negotiated with Dassault Aviation of France for 126 Rafale jets, 108 of which were to be made in India by HAL, and going instead for a purchase of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition with Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence getting the offset contract.
The department of defence production is studying the document, said an officer aware of the development told HT.
The document, reported HT, says that Su-30MKI – the mainstay fighters of the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia – is about Rs 150 crore costlier than the ones made in Russia.
A Su-30MKI made in Russia cost Rs 269.77 crore whereas one made by HAL in India costs Rs 417.69 crore, almost “Rs 150 crore” more per aircraft, the review said.
Similarly, there is a huge cost difference between the cost of the Hawk trainer aircraft manufactured by British Aerospace and those made HAL.
After long and torturous negotiations, India bought British made Hawk jets to train pilots in 2004. Of the initial 62 Hawk jets, 24 were to be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining were to be manufactured under licence by HAL. Each Hawk aircraft manufactured Britain in 2004 cost Rs 78 Crore. Those manufactured at HAL would have cost Rs 88 crore that year. The cost Hawk aircraft produced by HAL continued to increase. In 2010, the cost shot-up to Rs 98 crore and in 2016, Rs 153 crore.
The difference in price “is primarily due to lesser efficiency and exorbitant man hour rates,” the review has found.
The purchase of 126 Medium Multi-Role Rafale fighters being negotiated by the previous government, 108 would have been assembled in India by HAL, was scrapped because of high man hour cost at HAL, which would have needed 2.7 times more man-hours than the French company for each aircraft, said the HT report.
HAL disagreed with the interpretation of the report. Responding to queries, a spokesperson told HT, “Cost escalation from 2005 (for the Hawk jet) is normal. We also need to take into account the life-cycle cost of each product against off the shelf purchase from overseas.”
“The indigenous benefits, the ecosystem HAL creates for the larger benefit of the country should be factored in also. Importantly, staggered or small orders deny economies of scale to HAL,” said the spokesperson.
HAL also pointed to supply chain issues adding to cost. “Given that multiple agencies get involved in our manufacturing process, kit cost from OEMs and other delays like raw material and spare part supply issues, which are also endemic to the aerospace industry in India, the increase in cost must be evaluated in the right spirit,” the spokesperson added.
Buying fighter jets from abroad cheaper than manufacturing them at HAL, says Def Min - APN Live
Manufacturing fighter jets at India’s public sector unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is costlier than buying them from the the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) abroad, according to a defence ministry audit, reported The Hindustan Times (HT).
The report comes at a time when there is a raging controversy over Modi government dumping a deal being negotiated with Dassault Aviation of France for 126 Rafale jets, 108 of which were to be made in India by HAL, and going instead for a purchase of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition with Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence getting the offset contract.
The department of defence production is studying the document, said an officer aware of the development told HT.
The document, reported HT, says that Su-30MKI – the mainstay fighters of the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia – is about Rs 150 crore costlier than the ones made in Russia.
A Su-30MKI made in Russia cost Rs 269.77 crore whereas one made by HAL in India costs Rs 417.69 crore, almost “Rs 150 crore” more per aircraft, the review said.
Similarly, there is a huge cost difference between the cost of the Hawk trainer aircraft manufactured by British Aerospace and those made HAL.
After long and torturous negotiations, India bought British made Hawk jets to train pilots in 2004. Of the initial 62 Hawk jets, 24 were to be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining were to be manufactured under licence by HAL. Each Hawk aircraft manufactured Britain in 2004 cost Rs 78 Crore. Those manufactured at HAL would have cost Rs 88 crore that year. The cost Hawk aircraft produced by HAL continued to increase. In 2010, the cost shot-up to Rs 98 crore and in 2016, Rs 153 crore.
The difference in price “is primarily due to lesser efficiency and exorbitant man hour rates,” the review has found.
The purchase of 126 Medium Multi-Role Rafale fighters being negotiated by the previous government, 108 would have been assembled in India by HAL, was scrapped because of high man hour cost at HAL, which would have needed 2.7 times more man-hours than the French company for each aircraft, said the HT report.
HAL disagreed with the interpretation of the report. Responding to queries, a spokesperson told HT, “Cost escalation from 2005 (for the Hawk jet) is normal. We also need to take into account the life-cycle cost of each product against off the shelf purchase from overseas.”
“The indigenous benefits, the ecosystem HAL creates for the larger benefit of the country should be factored in also. Importantly, staggered or small orders deny economies of scale to HAL,” said the spokesperson.
HAL also pointed to supply chain issues adding to cost. “Given that multiple agencies get involved in our manufacturing process, kit cost from OEMs and other delays like raw material and spare part supply issues, which are also endemic to the aerospace industry in India, the increase in cost must be evaluated in the right spirit,” the spokesperson added.
Buying fighter jets from abroad cheaper than manufacturing them at HAL, says Def Min - APN Live
As I keep saying all along, the chance for / threat of a political deal with the US, were never higher. Even the worst case, F16s can't be ruled out.
if its a political deal, which one will be the better for india , - F16 or F 18 ?
i hope govt intention is purchase of other alternative like - P8I/ C130 / Chinook / Apache / M777 or UCAV
Not purchasing F16 /18 with the excuse of sanctions ( i suspect we only wanted that blackmail to buy F s )
Your Ex-President gave them ammunition to scuttle Rafale-M for IN. If you remember my posts in that other forum, I had always mentioned F-18 as the most likely choice due to political compulsions.It just shows how desesperated are the US.
The F18, the fact that Pakistan have the F16s alone, would be a big disadvantage and the Block 70 doesn't add much benefits either.
The F18 at least comes with a larger radar, advanced cockpit and now also IRST, although in a poor fitting.
If the government is smart, they use the smaller naval tender for a political deal though. Don't think much smaller deals will be enough for the US. Either a fighter deal, or the NMRH deal will have to go to them, as a political good will deal.
It just shows how desesperated are the US.
Actually it's a smart move for once by Trump. It was clear that we have to make any deal, to deepen the ties and get access to EMALS, or drones anyway, but it still was on us to negotiate. Linking it to Caatsa because of the S400 deal, puts the pressure on us now and they can make demands. And since the NDA government put itself closer aligned to the US than ever before, it will be more difficult to get out of that issue.
Not just politically, suitability and under the current circumstances, the cost advantage plays clearly into Boeings hands. Add the smart choice of Mahindra/HAL and you have hardly a choice. Question is, will that order be enough for Trump and how many do we have to order for a licence production?
By the time the MRCBF competition comes to a head, the Super Hornet's base technologies will be completely outdated. How will it compete with the Rafale's GaN radar and EW suite with 360 degree capability?
The Super Hornet as a viable competitor to the Rafale ended when Boeing stopped working on the Advanced Super Hornet. Now all they have is the Block 3 upgrade, which is not a significant upgrade over the existing Block 2. Even the Sea Gripen will be more capable than the SH Block 3.
If American fighter jets are absolutely necessary to build relations with the US, then I would rather the IN buys 57 F-35Bs instead of Super Hornets in an FMS deal. We will be able to use them from LHDs also.
The weapon purchases as a tool for blackmail is going to be the new norm. Russians, Americans and all other nations will now blackmail us on a routine basis.
There is no cost advantage if you are forced to work with HAL:
MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion
And if you want now to take care of the normal price it seems we have an indication:
Canada Charged Six Times As Much As US Navy for Super Hornets
As usuel the fly away cost is not comparable to the contract price but $ 81.5 million is in the range of the cost I took to compare Rafale to SE from price point of view for MMRCA II.
MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion
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$5.23B for 18 jets is too expensive considering there was no special customisation involved.
