MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Lolwa]

F15 in any iteration is just an American alternative for the flanker

Which is equipped with an aesa radar has better variety of a2g weapons has longer ranged a2a missiles. And has faced more conflicts the Sukhoi has. The f 15ex has one of the best ew systems too. Also the engines is one of the most powerful in a heavy plane. The thing also flies faster and higher than the Sukhoi sure it's maneuverability is nowhere close to the sukhoi but its a much more capable fighter than people give it credit for.

The IAF is not interested in a strike fighter.

The rafale's main strength is its strike capability. The Mirage is the only good strike fighter in the IAF so it's pretty clear that they primarily want a fighter that can do precision strikes and use it for nuclear deterrence. The Meteor is another one but then the typhoon would have been preferred unlike the rafale because it takes complete advantage of the meteor unlike the rafale. The French themselves use the mica for most operations anyway.

We are not retarded enough to buy cannon fodder for our air force. We only buy advanced stuff and we aim to survive while accomplishing missions.

That's why we are still using mig 21's in forward areas right?? To not be cannon fodder. The last thing the Indian establishment cares for is its soldiers...

 

[Hydra]

Which is equipped with an aesa radar has better variety of a2g weapons has longer ranged a2a missiles. And has faced more conflicts the Sukhoi has. The f 15ex has one of the best ew systems too. Also the engines is one of the most powerful in a heavy plane. The thing also flies faster and higher than the Sukhoi sure it's maneuverability is nowhere close to the sukhoi but its a much more capable fighter than people give it credit for.

The rafale's main strength is its strike capability. The Mirage is the only good strike fighter in the IAF so it's pretty clear that they primarily want a fighter that can do precision strikes and use it for nuclear deterrence. The Meteor is another one but then the typhoon would have been preferred unlike the rafale because it takes complete advantage of the meteor unlike the rafale. The French themselves use the mica for most operations anyway.

That's why we are still using mig 21's in forward areas right?? To not be cannon fodder. The last thing the Indian establishment cares for is its soldiers...

I dont know why indians are som.uch against f15 & american stuffs. F15 is an outstanding aircraft, we need that in numbers to counter chinese su35. They are having 36 su35 as of now and another 36 they will order soon, if reports are correct. Only f15 is able to strike deep inside tibet due to its monstrous fuel capital.

And, its jaguars. Jaguars are the most effective strike aircraft in indian inventory, it may change after july 27. You can check old IAF exercise videos, jaguars targets ground post like a sniper shot. No mirage, mki match jaguars on ground strike role.

100% right on mig21.

Which is equipped with an aesa radar has better variety of a2g weapons has longer ranged a2a missiles. And has faced more conflicts the Sukhoi has. The f 15ex has one of the best ew systems too. Also the engines is one of the most powerful in a heavy plane. The thing also flies faster and higher than the Sukhoi sure it's maneuverability is nowhere close to the sukhoi but its a much more capable fighter than people give it credit for.

The rafale's main strength is its strike capability. The Mirage is the only good strike fighter in the IAF so it's pretty clear that they primarily want a fighter that can do precision strikes and use it for nuclear deterrence. The Meteor is another one but then the typhoon would have been preferred unlike the rafale because it takes complete advantage of the meteor unlike the rafale. The French themselves use the mica for most operations anyway.

That's why we are still using mig 21's in forward areas right?? To not be cannon fodder. The last thing the Indian establishment cares for is its soldiers...

Rafael's superiority will diminish the day uncle sam field AIM260. Hope we eill get that missile along with f15. If we didn't go for f15, us may offer either aim120d or aim260 to PAF.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Which is equipped with an aesa radar has better variety of a2g weapons has longer ranged a2a missiles. And has faced more conflicts the Sukhoi has. The f 15ex has one of the best ew systems too. Also the engines is one of the most powerful in a heavy plane. The thing also flies faster and higher than the Sukhoi sure it's maneuverability is nowhere close to the sukhoi but its a much more capable fighter than people give it credit for.

The rafale's main strength is its strike capability. The Mirage is the only good strike fighter in the IAF so it's pretty clear that they primarily want a fighter that can do precision strikes and use it for nuclear deterrence. The Meteor is another one but then the typhoon would have been preferred unlike the rafale because it takes complete advantage of the meteor unlike the rafale. The French themselves use the mica for most operations anyway.

That's why we are still using mig 21's in forward areas right?? To not be cannon fodder. The last thing the Indian establishment cares for is its soldiers...

Su30MKI will soon receive its own update and those things will work for us. We are not invading Europe, we need to keep a balance between technology and budget.

F15 has been receiving updates every 5-6 years. Su30MKI is produced in the same iteration since 20 years. That's why the difference.

 

[Lolwa]

Rafael's superiority will diminish the day uncle sam field AIM260

That isn't going to happen because of spectra. A new bvraam won't change that for the rafale. It will still be able to get the first shot because of its superior ew

And, its jaguars. Jaguars are the most effective strike aircraft in indian inventory, it may change after july 27

I would have named the jaguar but the reality is that it has never been used in an offensive operation. In that sense the tejas mk1 is the best ground striker because it outperformed all other aircrafts in a2g operations during gagan shakti. For all practical purposes the Mirage is the goto strike aircraft for the IAF

Su30MKI will soon receive its own update and those things will work for us. We are not invading Europe, we need to keep a balance between technology and budget.

And I can assure we still won't have an aesa for the mki we will be using the Irbis e. The Russians won't allow an Indian made radar to be put on the mki. I had some hope in the fga 50 but according to you the mig 35 still doesn't have an aesa so I don't have much hopes for an aesa equipped mki ever entering the IAF. So for all matters the f15ex is superior to the mki.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That isn't going to happen because of spectra. A new bvraam won't change that for the rafale. It will still be able to get the first shot because of its superior ew

I would have named the jaguar but the reality is that it has never been used in an offensive operation. In that sense the tejas mk1 is the best ground striker because it outperformed all other aircrafts in a2g operations during gagan shakti. For all practical purposes the Mirage is the goto strike aircraft for the IAF

And I can assure we still won't have an aesa for the mki we will be using the Irbis e. The Russians won't allow an Indian made radar to be put on the mki. I had some hope in the fga 50 but according to you the mig 35 still doesn't have an aesa so I don't have much hopes for an aesa equipped mki ever entering the IAF. So for all matters the f15ex is superior to the mki.

And the good news is that we don't have to invade Europe of USA for that matter.

The upgrade program will happen stage wise, the 2nd batch which will go for MLU will have AESA radar.

 

[TARGET]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1282883307454312448

Boeing is getting their PR investment returns.

Maybe they are also planning to add supersonic /hypersonic under the belly of F15 same as MKI and Brahmos.

 

[Hydra]

That isn't going to happen because of spectra. A new bvraam won't change that for the rafale. It will still be able to get the first shot because of its superior ew

I would have named the jaguar but the reality is that it has never been used in an offensive operation. In that sense the tejas mk1 is the best ground striker because it outperformed all other aircrafts in a2g operations during gagan shakti. For all practical purposes the Mirage is the goto strike aircraft for the IAF

And I can assure we still won't have an aesa for the mki we will be using the Irbis e. The Russians won't allow an Indian made radar to be put on the mki. I had some hope in the fga 50 but according to you the mig 35 still doesn't have an aesa so I don't have much hopes for an aesa equipped mki ever entering the IAF. So for all matters the f15ex is superior to the mki.

Spectra may be agood system as of now, after five or ten years, only time will tell.

I didn't see gaganshakti videos sofar, in that lca uses unguided gravity bomb or laser bombs? The jaguars pinpoint drop was with gravity bombs.
And i do agree with that rafale is tye current choice by IAF on limited strike role because of its well balanced air to air & Air to ground. But in a full fledged war, jaguars will be the spearhead on strike role on enemy formations.

 

[randomradio]

The rafale's main strength is its strike capability. The Mirage is the only good strike fighter in the IAF so it's pretty clear that they primarily want a fighter that can do precision strikes and use it for nuclear deterrence. The Meteor is another one but then the typhoon would have been preferred unlike the rafale because it takes complete advantage of the meteor unlike the rafale. The French themselves use the mica for most operations anyway.

Rafale's main strength is air superiority. It's very, very good at strike, so good that it in fact is given more importance in PR campaigns than its air superiority capability. So you can imagine how good it is as an air superiority aircraft.

That's why we are still using mig 21's in forward areas right?? To not be cannon fodder. The last thing the Indian establishment cares for is its soldiers...

It's not cannon fodder. The Mig-21s are used to scramble and intercept, which is why they are closer to the border than other aircraft. No other aircraft can do this, and it's one of our most important roles.

The IAF has no cannon fodder, and neither does any other air force in the world.

The Indian establishment cares a lot for its soldiers.

 

[randomradio]

I would have named the jaguar but the reality is that it has never been used in an offensive operation. In that sense the tejas mk1 is the best ground striker because it outperformed all other aircrafts in a2g operations during gagan shakti. For all practical purposes the Mirage is the goto strike aircraft for the IAF

The Jaguar is a DPS aircraft. LCA does only light strike. Both are completely different roles.

F15 has been receiving updates every 5-6 years. Su30MKI is produced in the same iteration since 20 years. That's why the difference.

The bane of our fleet.

 

[Lolwa]

And the good news is that we don't have to invade Europe of USA for that matter.

The upgrade program will happen stage wise, the 2nd batch which will go for MLU will have AESA radar.

The problem is that the Chinese have already introduced aesa on most of its aircrafts. And considering how the Chinese might have got technology there are high chances those radars would have been based on the Israeli radars which at best gives us parity with them not exceed them. MKI mlu won't really change the situation vis-a-vis the Chinese. We already dominate Pakistan without the need of aesa radars.
And there has been no concrete news regarding the mki's ever getting an aesa it's mostly a wishlist which the IAF can never fulfill because of it's incompetence.

 

[Lolwa]

And i do agree with that rafale is tye current choice by IAF on limited strike role because of its well balanced air to air & Air to ground. But in a full fledged war, jaguars will be the spearhead on strike role on enemy formations

Funny because during Kargil they never used the Jaguars. It was the mirage with did most of the heavy lifting. The jaguars were pretty much useless, even the mig 23 and 27 saw some action.

Rafale's main strength is air superiority. It's very, very good at strike, so good that it in fact is given more importance in PR campaigns than its air superiority capability. So you can imagine how good it is as an air superiority aircraft

I don't know from what I have read the typhoon is said to be a better air superiority fighter than the rafale. The rafale was always marketed as an omnirole aircraft. It service ceiling is lower to most of the air superiority fighters. Till I don't have evidence to the contrary I will consider it a better strike fighter than an air superiority fighter.

The Jaguar is a DPS aircraft. LCA does only light strike. Both are completely different roles.

The statement was taken out of context. I was just pointing out the fallacy of the argument that the jaguar is the best strike fighter because it's precise but the IAF has always used the Mirage for its missions. So in that case the Tejas should be used because it performed even better than the Jaguars during gagan shakti. It was completely rhetorical..

 

[randomradio]

I don't know from what I have read the typhoon is said to be a better air superiority fighter than the rafale. The rafale was always marketed as an omnirole aircraft. It service ceiling is lower to most of the air superiority fighters. Till I don't have evidence to the contrary I will consider it a better strike fighter than an air superiority fighter.

In terms of avionics and weapons, this was in reference to the old Typhoon and Rafale, and with the Typhoon armed with a longer ranged BVR missile. It no longer applies. If they really fought with the intention to kill, the Typhoon won't last against the Rafale.

Rafale's service ceiling is the same as any other fighter. It's even capable of supercruise, only slightly inferior to the Typhoon due to weaker engines, but it makes no difference having an extra 0.1 mach speed. Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 6 missiles, while Typhoon can do the same at mach 1.5.

The last time the Rafale and F-22 had a dogfight, both the F-22 and Rafale won 1 engagement each, and the other 4 were draws. So the Rafale can compete with the F-22 in agility, which is currently considered the most agile aircraft in the world.

Rafale is the only jet that can operationally perform up to 11G. All other jets are restricted to 9G.

The F-15E, MKI, Su-35, Mig-35 and SH (even MKI) can neither supercruise nor exceed 9G during dog fights. When it comes to WVR, the Rafale carries the biggest stick with the MICA IR. And, when it comes to BVR, none of these aircraft have the Meteor. So none of these aircraft can compete with the Rafale in either WVR and BVR, and all this without even considering the main advantages of the SPECTRA.

But you consider the Rafale to have a better strike capability than air defence capability, which is fine. Given the facts above, how much do you think it matters?

The statement was taken out of context. I was just pointing out the fallacy of the argument that the jaguar is the best strike fighter because it's precise but the IAF has always used the Mirage for its missions. So in that case the Tejas should be used because it performed even better than the Jaguars during gagan shakti. It was completely rhetorical..

The DARIN III Jaguars have better hardware than the LCA for the strike role. The Mirage 2000 has superior strike capability compared to Jaguar and LCA. The LCA isn't capable of SEAD/DEAD or DPS like M2000 and Jaguar. So the LCA doesn't even do the same role the Jaguar does.

MWF is expected to surpass M2000 and Jaguar in the strike role, not the LCA. LCA's main job is interception. But the Mk1A should see the LCA matching up to the Jaguar in some ways though, especially considering the Jaguar is not getting better engines.

 

[Lolwa]

In terms of avionics and weapons, this was in reference to the old Typhoon and Rafale, and with the Typhoon armed with a longer ranged BVR missile. It no longer applies. If they really fought with the intention to kill, the Typhoon won't last against the Rafale.

Rafale's service ceiling is the same as any other fighter. It's even capable of supercruise, only slightly inferior to the Typhoon due to weaker engines, but it makes no difference having an extra 0.1 mach speed. Rafale can supercruise at mach 1.4 with 6 missiles, while Typhoon can do the same at mach 1.5.

The last time the Rafale and F-22 had a dogfight, both the F-22 and Rafale won 1 engagement each, and the other 4 were draws. So the Rafale can compete with the F-22 in agility, which is currently considered the most agile aircraft in the world.

Rafale is the only jet that can operationally perform up to 11G. All other jets are restricted to 9G.

The F-15E, MKI, Su-35, Mig-35 and SH (even MKI) can neither supercruise nor exceed 9G during dog fights. When it comes to WVR, the Rafale carries the biggest stick with the MICA IR. And, when it comes to BVR, none of these aircraft have the Meteor. So none of these aircraft can compete with the Rafale in either WVR and BVR, and all this without even considering the main advantages of the SPECTRA.

But you consider the Rafale to have a better strike capability than air defence capability, which is fine. Given the facts above, how much do you think it matters?



The DARIN III Jaguars have better hardware than the LCA for the strike role. The Mirage 2000 has superior strike capability compared to Jaguar and LCA. The LCA isn't capable of SEAD/DEAD or DPS like M2000 and Jaguar. So the LCA doesn't even do the same role the Jaguar does.

MWF is expected to surpass M2000 and Jaguar in the strike role, not the LCA. LCA's main job is interception. But the Mk1A should see the LCA matching up to the Jaguar in some ways though, especially considering the Jaguar is not getting better engines.

Atleast we agree on the fact that Mirage is the go to strike aircraft for the IAF. The jaguars have been upgraded and all but are pretty much useless. They can carry as much munitions as the lca.
The Americans say that the results of f22 and rafale mock fight was because they had a relatively inexperienced pilot against the rafale who was more experienced. The Americans do this whenever they get their asses kicked in exercises. This was the same reason used when the indian mig 21's demolished the U.S.A.F during the red flag exercise. That reason wasn't given out during the 2008 red flag where IAF did not perform as well. The rafale doesn't have a higher flight ceiling than the f15 or typhoon and both typhoon and f15 are capable of reaching 11g. The f 15 airframe can handle 13g too. That is not special for the rafale. I would like to see how spectra vs epawws will turn out..

The mk1a could very well be made an sead dead fighter and it would superior to the jaguar it's the IAF which isn't doing enough in that domain. Also if you let the lca perform it will be superior to the jaguar. The jaguar is outdated junk being used by the IAF just for the heck of it . One of the most useless aircrafts in our inventory.

 

[Abhay rajput]

I dont know why indians are som.uch against f15 & american stuffs. F15 is an outstanding aircraft, we need that in numbers to counter chinese su35. They are having 36 su35 as of now and another 36 they will order soon, if reports are correct. Only f15 is able to strike deep inside tibet due to its monstrous fuel capital.

And, its jaguars. Jaguars are the most effective strike aircraft in indian inventory, it may change after july 27. You can check old IAF exercise videos, jaguars targets ground post like a sniper shot. No mirage, mki match jaguars on ground strike role.

100% right on mig21.

Rafael's superiority will diminish the day uncle sam field AIM260. Hope we eill get that missile along with f15. If we didn't go for f15, us may offer either aim120d or aim260 to PAF.

Because all those things come with restrictions like huge restrictions. Few examples- p8 aircraft home base have American contractors there . They do everything repair, service, upgrades and ofcourse spy. Moreover they already have data link which transfer all the data to USA when we use certain equipment on it which are anyways required in most flights. Second story is from ins jalaswha - Americans regularly check there ancient equipment on it. We remove those equipment from the ship in every inspection. That doesn't happen with Russian/french ones. Lastly every weapons deal with USA comes with its own end user agreement . Also if any day USA politician decide to stop supply of spares or sanction us because of let's just say CAB , NRC, KASHMIR. Those billion dollars equipment become useless. Not to mention then they can blackmail us just like they do with
other countries. From American perspective either we would be there vessel state like many other countries or there enemy. We had quite harsh memory of that during 1998 sanctions. So the only option for us is to invest money in indigenous products.
Now ofcourse USA equipment is great but also costly with many restrictions. So why not choose France instead who also have great equipment , costly but zero , NO restrictions

 

[Hydra]

Because all those things come with restrictions like huge restrictions. Few examples- p8 aircraft home base have American contractors there . They do everything repair, service, upgrades and ofcourse spy. Moreover they already have data link which transfer all the data to USA when we use certain equipment on it which are anyways required in most flights. Second story is from ins jalaswha - Americans regularly check there ancient equipment on it. We remove those equipment from the ship in every inspection. That doesn't happen with Russian/french ones. Lastly every weapons deal with USA comes with its own end user agreement . Also if any day USA politician decide to stop supply of spares or sanction us because of let's just say CAB , NRC, KASHMIR. Those billion dollars equipment become useless. Not to mention then they can blackmail us just like they do with
other countries. From American perspective either we would be there vessel state like many other countries or there enemy. We had quite harsh memory of that during 1998 sanctions. So the only option for us is to invest money in indigenous products.
Now ofcourse USA equipment is great but also costly with many restrictions. So why not choose France instead who also have great equipment , costly but zero , NO restrictions.

Because all those things come with restrictions like huge restrictions. Few examples- p8 aircraft home base have American contractors there . They do everything repair, service, upgrades and ofcourse spy. Moreover they already have data link which transfer all the data to USA when we use certain equipment on it which are anyways required in most flights. Second story is from ins jalaswha - Americans regularly check there ancient equipment on it. We remove those equipment from the ship in every inspection. That doesn't happen with Russian/french ones. Lastly every weapons deal with USA comes with its own end user agreement . Also if any day USA politician decide to stop supply of spares or sanction us because of let's just say CAB , NRC, KASHMIR. Those billion dollars equipment become useless. Not to mention then they can blackmail us just like they do with
other countries. From American perspective either we would be there vessel state like many other countries or there enemy. We had quite harsh memory of that during 1998 sanctions. So the only option for us is to invest money in indigenous products.
Now ofcourse USA equipment is great but also costly with many restrictions. So why not choose France instead who also have great equipment , costly but zero , NO restrictions.

It's not us spy,it's the OEM personals is maintaining the product. Lot of MNC engineering products were kept working like that in many part of the world. We Indians were not habituated such working culture,that doesn't means that we need to ridicule that system.
The reason for high availability rate of C17, Hercules, Apache bare due to OEM engineers stations at the base to maintain the product. And for your information, OEM engineers need not to be white guys, generally ( in other industries,I don't about military) OEM will recruit from local and give training and will be posted at respective products. And they will be penalized if they didn't complete the work on time,a luxury we can't enjoy with defence civilian service.

 

[randomradio]

The jaguars have been upgraded and all but are pretty much useless.

Nope. Let's just say you have no clue what you are talking about.

Google CBU-105.

The Americans say that the results of f22 and rafale mock fight was because they had a relatively inexperienced pilot against the rafale who was more experienced. The Americans do this whenever they get their asses kicked in exercises. This was the same reason used when the indian mig 21's demolished the U.S.A.F during the red flag exercise. That reason wasn't given out during the 2008 red flag where IAF did not perform as well.

You are talking about 1 that they lost. Not the other 5 that happened, with 4 no results and 1 win. The Americans don't send only rookies.

The rafale doesn't have a higher flight ceiling than the f15 or typhoon

Nope. There is a height beyond which a human cannot pass since his blood will boil and he will die. All jets operate below that height. This includes Rafale, Typhoon, F-15, Su-57, F-22 etc.

The only way to cross that height is to wear a pressure/space suit, and Rafale comes with it. As do other jets. But 99.99% of the sorties happen well below that height. So Rafale and all other fast jets have the same service ceiling. For a jet that can supercruise, achieving that altitude is a piece of cake.

This is such a simple fact that escapes a lot of people, and I don't know why. It's called Armstrong limit. Google it.

In fact, most sorties are well below 13Km altitude, or 42000 feet. It's very rare that they climb up higher than that.

and both typhoon and f15 are capable of reaching 11g.

Nope.

The f 15 airframe can handle 13g too. That is not special for the rafale.

You are talking about something else. Rafale can handle more than 16G in that sense.

I find it funny how you completely skipped over the part where the "strike fighter" Rafale can supercruise.

I would like to see how spectra vs epawws will turn out..

No contest. Doesn't even have half the capabilities of the SPECTRA. Plus it's still under flight testing. By the time it's fully developed and operational, the SPECTRA would have advanced to the next gen version coming up with F4.2 in 2024.

USAF plans to finish LRIP production of the F-15EX only in 2023, so they can't even bring an opertional version for flight testing to India. They can only send a prototype.

The mk1a could very well be made an sead dead fighter and it would superior to the jaguar it's the IAF which isn't doing enough in that domain. Also if you let the lca perform it will be superior to the jaguar. The jaguar is outdated junk being used by the IAF just for the heck of it . One of the most useless aircrafts in our inventory.

Lol, is that why the IAF plans to operate Jaguars all the way until 2042?

 

[randomradio]

It's not us spy,it's the OEM personals is maintaining the product. Lot of MNC engineering products were kept working like that in many part of the world. We Indians were not habituated such working culture,that doesn't means that we need to ridicule that system.
The reason for high availability rate of C17, Hercules, Apache bare due to OEM engineers stations at the base to maintain the product. And for your information, OEM engineers need not to be white guys, generally ( in other industries,I don't about military) OEM will recruit from local and give training and will be posted at respective products. And they will be penalized if they didn't complete the work on time,a luxury we can't enjoy with defence civilian service.

Nope. Only American citizens and green card holders can work in American defence OEMs.

 

[Hydra]

Nope. Only American citizens and green card holders can work in American defence OEMs.

The one who posted here will be maintanence guys.

 

[randomradio]

The one who posted here will be maintanence guys.

Doesn't matter who it is. OEM = American citizens.

Maintenance guys "posted" here = IAF.

White, black, Latino, Indian, or even of Chinese descent, it doesn't matter, the citizenship/green card has to be American. At best, they will avoid sending an ancestral Pakistani or Chinese to our bases.

 

[Hydra]

Doesn't matter who it is. OEM = American citizens.

Maintenance guys "posted" here = IAF.

White, black, Latino, Indian, or even of Chinese descent, it doesn't matter, the citizenship/green card has to be American. At best, they will avoid sending an ancestral Pakistani or Chinese to our bases.

Could be...