MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Rajput Lion]

Because rafale and carry as many meteors as the typhoon or gripen. It has more capacity in terms of weapon capacity but still cannot carry as many meteors. It's tactics for BVR and dogfighting are actually extremely similar to how IAF treats air combat(low altitude low speed ambush rather than maintaining higher altitude advantage with high speed to take out opponent which is a more american style way of fighting). The typhoon offers us the high speed high altitude style of options. The su-30mki really doesn't because of lack of good bvr missiles. We don't have the r-37m. Only the typhoon and f-15EX can give us this ability. The typhoon can carry 6 meteors or amraams and will launch it at a higher speed and altitude. IAF has good ground and pounders in their collection. Mirage, su-30mki, tejas, jaguar, rafale. We need more air superiority focused aircrafts that can also do ground and pound. Typhoon does it decently with the meteor,it also has kepd-350 and hope and hosbo, SDB 3's, brimstone , marte-er. Basically a bunch of European stand off munitions. That give us ability to manufacture a range of munitions in India that can be manufactured in India and re-exported back to OEM countries like France Italy, germany in case of situations like war,policy implementations. Redundancy needs to be created. Plus if we plan to join gcap even in a case of backup getting into the typhoon program will give us assistance in joining gcap.
I think in any case the rafale will be now produced in India. I just want the typhoon or f-15EX so that we can have a huge radar plane with a good capacity of carrying BVR.

Su-30MKI destroyed Typhoons 12:0 in dogfights and dominated them even in BVRs way back in exercise IndraDhanush 2015 that took place over the British sky.

What makes you think that MKI is a low-altitude mud-mover and not a high-altitude BVR launcher? Are IAF dumb to bill it as their 'Air Dominance Fighter', 'cause only USAF uses that term for F-22 Raptor? In fact, MKI has insane kinematics up high and it can launch Astra from even 55k altitude extending its range quite a lot. MKI UPG. with Virupaksha + Gandiva combo is going to be way more superior than Typhoon or F-15EX.

MRFA was always meant for acquiring French birds(first M-2000, then Rafale) in a non-controversial way. Others are just place holders.

Even if we procure F-21s as MRFA, then that's just a price to get F-35s and to establish GE engine supply chain in India.

Your demand of F-15EX or Typhoon as MRFA winners literally makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

@randomradio, @vstol Jockey, @Parthu, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @Speedster1, @Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik, @Ashwin, @marich01, @_Anonymous_, @Innominate, @YoungWolf,
@Aniruddha ,@Milspec, @Sathya, @harry ,@Ironhide, @Arctic Wolf et al.......

As myself have been predicting/harping for the last several years, finally one more prediction is about to come true:

Rafale Surge: IAF Eyes 40 More Jets as Navy Deal Nears Signing

In a decisive move to shore up India’s dwindling air combat strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly preparing to procure 40 additional Rafale fighter jets from France through a government

bharatshakti.in

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Our MoD, DoD since decades planned landing in a ditch well, can't spit it, can't swallow it. Enjoy 4gen while their makers fund their 6gen.
But in short, Rafale had to be the best MMRCA choice IMO bcoz USA & other EU nations have given lots of speed-bumps. EU started raising concerns on F-35 also. But after GCAP, FCAS, NGAD will start publicly flying then all 4gen jets will become blisters for everyone. Russia can reveal something new any day. So we should FAST-TRACK our AMCA, make 5+gen TEDBF as indicated by IN, use MWF prototype only as TD for delta-canard R&D, initiate our own 6gen. Our JV on engine needs to give at least 1 powerful 200+KN VCE which can power 1 & 2 engine future jets & eliminate any future import tender.
Just like France is planning future, I'm going to share my notional view of next iteration of a pumped-up AMCA & 5gen TEDBF soon which can obviously counter future Rafale versions still being 4gen airframe, no matter how much things improve internally. I already shared some notional options for stealthy MWF.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Our MoD, DoD since decades planned landing in a ditch well, can't spit it, can't swallow it. Enjoy 4gen while their makers fund their 6gen.
But in short, Rafale had to be the best MMRCA choice IMO bcoz USA & other EU nations have given lots of speed-bumps. EU started raising concerns on F-35 also. But after GCAP, FCAS, NGAD will start publicly flying then all 4gen jets will become blisters for everyone. Russia can reveal something new any day. So we should FAST-TRACK our AMCA, make 5+gen TEDBF as indicated by IN, use MWF prototype only as TD for delta-canard R&D, initiate our own 6gen. Our JV on engine needs to give at least 1 powerful 200+KN VCE which can power 1 & 2 engine future jets & eliminate any future import tender.
Just like France is planning future, I'm going to share my notional view of next iteration of a pumped-up AMCA & 5gen TEDBF soon which can obviously counter future Rafale versions still being 4gen airframe, no matter how much things improve internally. I already shared some notional options for stealthy MWF.

Rafale is NOT a 4th gen jet. It is 5th gen minus VLO stealth(yeah, oxymoron, I know!), thus dubbed 4.5 gen by most. It's also far better than anything PAF or PLAAF have/will have for quite a long time. Plus, backdoor talks are on with both US & Russia for procurement of a VLO jet.

PS: Rafale's clean frontal RCS is between 0.04m2 - 0.08m2. It's definitely LO by design. Even with 6 missile(and no CFTs), its frontal RCS is around 0.6m2, so RO even when loaded with BVRs. Combine that with OSF-IR and SPECTRA and you'll have an absolute aerial killer. Both PAF & PLAAF are s**t scared of our Rafales, so more we get the better for us and worse for them.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Rafale is NOT a 4th gen jet. It is 5th gen minus VLO stealth(yeah, oxymoron, I know!), thus dubbed 4.5 gen by most. It's also far better than anything PAF or PLAAF have/will have for quite a long time. Plus, backdoor talks are on with both US & Russia for procurement of a VLO jet.

PS: Rafale's clean frontal RCS is between 0.04m2 - 0.08m2. It's definitely LO by design. Even with 6 missile(and no CFTs), its frontal RCS is around 0.6m2, so RO even when loaded with BVRs. Combine that with OSF-IR and SPECTRA and you'll have an absolute aerial killer. Both PAF & PLAAF are s**t scared of our Rafales, so more we get the better for us and worse for them.

I'm using 4gen as an umbrella bcoz i don't wanna use scale of 4.1 to 4.9 yes i can agree that it could be best among 4gen (4.5gen), but don't call it LO/VLO bcoz the continious R&D has pushed up level of LO/VLO also + don't forget 5gen will be MLUed to 5.5gen

PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSS: Don't forget why France is making FCAS, so don't worship Rafale. Clean config of 4gen jet is USELESS. So 0.6 sqm cannot be compared with 0.00015 sqm, that's 4000 times bigger RCS than F-22 & 400 times bigger than F-35. And 5gen is supposed to be much beter than 4gen EO/RF sensors. So if our AMCA doesn't have better sensors than Rafale then it can't be 5gen. And then 6gen is 1 more leap ahead.
So forget PAF, but don't underestimate PLAAF/N. Let me repeat myself - China makes crap for world but not for itself obviously. IDK about others, i don't think their jets are cola cans. That's what 10s of 1000s of our genuine techies will tell you.
WHEN WE MEET ACCIDENT (ESPECIALLY DUE TO OUR OWN FAULTS), WE'VE TO GO THROUGH RECOVERY PERIOD & IF DURING RECOVERY ANOTHER ACCIDENT HAPPENS (ESPECIALLY AGAIN DUE TO OUR FAULTS) THEN ALSO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I'm using 4gen as an umbrella bcoz i don't wanna use scale of 4.1 to 4.9 yes i can agree that it could be best among 4gen (4.5gen), but don't call it LO/VLO bcoz the continious R&D has pushed up level of LO/VLO also + don't forget 5gen will be MLUed to 5.5gen

PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSS: Don't forget why France is making FCAS, so don't worship Rafale. Clean config of 4gen jet is USELESS. So 0.6 sqm cannot be compared with 0.00015 sqm, that's 4000 times bigger RCS than F-22 & 400 times bigger than F-35. And 5gen is supposed to be much beter than 4gen EO/RF sensors. So if our AMCA doesn't have better sensors than Rafale then it can't be 5gen. And then 6gen is 1 more leap ahead.
So forget PAF, but don't underestimate PLAAF/N. Let me repeat myself - China makes crap for world but not for itself obviously. IDK about others, i don't think their jets are cola cans. That's what 10s of 1000s of our genuine techies will tell you.
WHEN WE MEET ACCIDENT (ESPECIALLY DUE TO OUR OWN FAULTS), WE'VE TO GO THROUGH RECOVERY PERIOD & IF DURING RECOVERY ANOTHER ACCIDENT HAPPENS (ESPECIALLY AGAIN DUE TO OUR FAULTS) THEN ALSO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT.

All good but can't put Rafale in the same generation as Su-27 'cause Rafale was designed to kill Su-27/Mig-29 along with to penetrate Soviet IADS. It's a whole generation ahead from Su-27/baseline 4th gen jets.

It's true that when you mount external loads and especially CFTs, then Rafale is no more stealth. But that's how it is! Also, IAF is looking very closely towards PAF's procurement of J-35. They'll counter it by off the shelf Su-57/F-35 purchase. But IAF is now fully on desi-bandwagon just like IN(IA too). Ukraine war has been a great eye-opener for our forces. They know that a protracted war can only be won/sustained via domestic solutions. So, AMCA is the next big thing for IAF then MKI replacement aka AHCA.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

All good but can't put Rafale in the same generation as Su-27 'cause Rafale was designed to kill Su-27/Mig-29 along with to penetrate Soviet IADS. It's a whole generation ahead from Su-27/baseline 4th gen jets.

Who's talking about baseline 4gen?
I don't even talk about 4gen jets anywhere, whether it is Rafale or Su-3X, etc, etc. Bye Bye 1970s/80s airframe. Best of luck to all of them with their MLUs
But, the Russians can also claim that their latest Su-35 & MiG-35 are another beast. So you should actually chat with them. Many people believe that Su-57 is flattened, chiseled Su-3X.
PEOPLE OF 1 COUNTRY JUST OPERATING A PRODUCT OF ANOTHER COUNTRY SHOULD PRAISE BUT NOT DEFEND/ADVOCATE IT WHICH THEY HAVE NOT DESIGNED or RE-DESIGNED.

It's true that when you mount external loads and especially CFTs, then Rafale is no more stealth. But that's how it is! Also, IAF is looking very closely towards PAF's procurement of J-35. They'll counter it by off the shelf Su-57/F-35 purchase. But IAF is now fully on desi-bandwagon just like IN(IA too). Ukraine war has been a great eye-opener for our forces. They know that a protracted war can only be won/sustained via domestic solutions. So, AMCA is the next big thing for IAF then MKI replacement aka AHCA.

I hope so. Time will tell soon how much their eyes have opened or or or or...

 

[Ironhide]

We have to wait for actual confirmation, Just last week we were celebrating the news about 114 Rafale in G2G deal with local production in the news article by Snehesh on thePrint:

Talks with France to begin for G2G deal for multirole fighter aircraft, Rafale M pact this month

MRFA deal will entail Rafale fighter & it will involve Dassault Aviation setting up a final assembly line in India in partnership with a defence industry player, ThePrint has learnt

theprint.in

 

[Bon Plan]

Because rafale and carry as many meteors as the typhoon or gripen. It has more capacity in terms of weapon capacity but still cannot carry as many meteors. It's tactics for BVR and dogfighting are actually extremely similar to how IAF treats air combat(low altitude low speed ambush rather than maintaining higher altitude advantage with high speed to take out opponent which is a more american style way of fighting). The typhoon offers us the high speed high altitude style of options. The su-30mki really doesn't because of lack of good bvr missiles. We don't have the r-37m. Only the typhoon and f-15EX can give us this ability. The typhoon can carry 6 meteors or amraams and will launch it at a higher speed and altitude. IAF has good ground and pounders in their collection. Mirage, su-30mki, tejas, jaguar, rafale. We need more air superiority focused aircrafts that can also do ground and pound. Typhoon does it decently with the meteor,it also has kepd-350 and hope and hosbo, SDB 3's, brimstone , marte-er. Basically a bunch of European stand off munitions. That give us ability to manufacture a range of munitions in India that can be manufactured in India and re-exported back to OEM countries like France Italy, germany in case of situations like war,policy implementations. Redundancy needs to be created. Plus if we plan to join gcap even in a case of backup getting into the typhoon program will give us assistance in joining gcap.
I think in any case the rafale will be now produced in India. I just want the typhoon or f-15EX so that we can have a huge radar plane with a good capacity of carrying BVR.

A 4 Meteor config for Rafale is in the pipe. It's not a problem.
F15EX is a US product : you can use it only if uncle Sam agree... I don't see India purchasing it.
EF2000 : higher altitude? probably. Higher speed ? If some parts of the frame are not flying away.... . The commercial life of this bird is nearly over. Export is disappointing, it's not without some reasons.

Rafale is NOT a 4th gen jet. It is 5th gen minus VLO stealth(yeah, oxymoron, I know!), thus dubbed 4.5 gen by most. It's also far better than anything PAF or PLAAF have/will have for quite a long time. Plus, backdoor talks are on with both US & Russia for procurement of a VLO jet.

PS: Rafale's clean frontal RCS is between 0.04m2 - 0.08m2. It's definitely LO by design. Even with 6 missile(and no CFTs), its frontal RCS is around 0.6m2, so RO even when loaded with BVRs. Combine that with OSF-IR and SPECTRA and you'll have an absolute aerial killer. Both PAF & PLAAF are s**t scared of our Rafales, so more we get the better for us and worse for them.

Indeed.
As F35 is not a 5th gen because definitively not supercruising.
Sole real 5th gen so far is F22.

 

[South block]

India going to buy F 35 for good

 

[Bon Plan]

India going to buy F 35 for good

in your wet dreams.

 

[South block]

in your wet dreams.

My wet dreams are your nightmares

 

[Rajput Lion]

My wet dreams are your nightmares

@3:55 mark

 

[South block]

@3:55 mark

JD vence is ghar ka Jamai..... We should take this moment to take India US relations to next level Jai Hind!

 

[randomradio]

@Picdelamirand-oil

I have a few questions about ToT post MRFA deal.

Is it within the realms of French policy to provide raw sensor data like the radar's I/Q samples to India for fusion in IACCS? From what I understand, providing raw data does not expose core algorithms, the operating system, or processed data. Sensor data can be tapped from the ADC output and the data can be stored in an Indian accessible partition in the MDPU that can connect to the IACCS via datalink/satlink. Possible? Let's assume wireless tech has advanced sufficiently to transfer uncompressed big data over the air by the time such modifications are made. 6G. Or if necessary we can use a dedicated FPGA for downsampling, separating it from MDPU. We can choose some common or open format to store it in. And data security can be managed by Indian QKD standards.

Can MDPU be replaced with an Indian computer? Or can we add a secondary Indian computer, F-35I style?

Is it possible to replace significant amounts of secondary source codes with Indian ones? Particularly the ones meant for connectivity? So primary sensors and EW systems are French along with the AI for fusion and the OS, but comm links module, weapons integration module etc are all Indian?

'Cause if we are to connect Rafale to India's combat cloud and achieve tri-services synergy, F3R level of networking won't be enough.

 

[Hydra]

Pakistan is claiming they have jammed Rafale. And IAF didn't deny it.
Do we really needs to pursue a non stealth aircraft as mmrca when the doors to procure f35 from USA is now open to us.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@Picdelamirand-oil

I have a few questions about ToT post MRFA deal.

Is it within the realms of French policy to provide raw sensor data like the radar's I/Q samples to India for fusion in IACCS? From what I understand, providing raw data does not expose core algorithms, the operating system, or processed data. Sensor data can be tapped from the ADC output and the data can be stored in an Indian accessible partition in the MDPU that can connect to the IACCS via datalink/satlink. Possible? Let's assume wireless tech has advanced sufficiently to transfer uncompressed big data over the air by the time such modifications are made. 6G. Or if necessary we can use a dedicated FPGA for downsampling, separating it from MDPU. We can choose some common or open format to store it in. And data security can be managed by Indian QKD standards.

Can MDPU be replaced with an Indian computer? Or can we add a secondary Indian computer, F-35I style?

Is it possible to replace significant amounts of secondary source codes with Indian ones? Particularly the ones meant for connectivity? So primary sensors and EW systems are French along with the AI for fusion and the OS, but comm links module, weapons integration module etc are all Indian?

'Cause if we are to connect Rafale to India's combat cloud and achieve tri-services synergy, F3R level of networking won't be enough.

From F4.2 onwards, the Rafale's communications architecture will change, with the introduction of a communications server. If you want, you can develop your own communications server using Dassault specifications for interfacing with the aircraft, and your own specifications for external exchanges and cyber.

 

[randomradio]

From F4.2 onwards, the Rafale's communications architecture will change, with the introduction of a communications server. If you want, you can develop your own communications server using Dassault specifications for interfacing with the aircraft, and your own specifications for external exchanges and cyber.

That seems to be post processing, but what about pre-processed data?

India is creating a tri-services combat cloud. So there will be an expectation that apart from a fighter doing its own fusion, the IACCS will also do the same with satellite (200-300 ISR and comm), ground radars, and force multiplier data, including fighter jets. While we will control the data from all other jets, pre-processed data from Rafale can add to the IACCS' fusion too.

For example, we cannot add a data tap to the ADC output of TRMs or create new partitions separate from the MDPU's proprietary processing core. You guys have to do that and then create new modules and data formats that we can use.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That seems to be post processing, but what about pre-processed data?

India is creating a tri-services combat cloud. So there will be an expectation that apart from a fighter doing its own fusion, the IACCS will also do the same with satellite (200-300 ISR and comm), ground radars, and force multiplier data, including fighter jets. While we will control the data from all other jets, pre-processed data from Rafale can add to the IACCS' fusion too.

For example, we cannot add a data tap to the ADC output of TRMs or create new partitions separate from the MDPU's proprietary processing core. You guys have to do that and then create new modules and data formats that we can use.

TRM output data are not even sent to the MDPU, but are processed directly in the radar, and the trend is even towards processing them directly in the radar antenna (in GaN).

 

[Speedster1]

Can MDPU be replaced with an Indian computer? Or can we add a secondary Indian computer, F-35I style?

MDPU was the standard MC on all M-2000s from the Dash-5 production version onwards. IAF birds too were likely upgraded to the same standard with a 2nd MC added to the avionics architecture by HAL. So theoretically this should be doable for the Rafale too. It has an open systems architecture.

 

[randomradio]

TRM output data are not even sent to the MDPU, but are processed directly in the radar, and the trend is even towards processing them directly in the radar antenna (in GaN).

That's okay. When I say MDPU, I meant overall French processing. Signal processor + radar computer + mission computer... whatever the hardware chain is.

On Bars, we have access to raw sensor data. But on Rafale F5, I don't think France will allow India to add its own signal processors and other computers. So, if the raw radar data is extracted and transferred offboard, it can be used to create tracking and fire control information for SAMs like the Russian S-400.

The idea is while individual platforms like satellites, drones, and jets have their own onboard processing, raw sensor data from each of these platforms can create a better fusion of the battlespace on the ground using AI and more powerful computers. And this data can then be transferred on the cloud to all assets. The goal is to create a single global picture on cloud.