Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[Zarion]

What a tone-deaf take.
Money is THE biggest bottleneck in any weapons development program. Lack of funding is the single biggest bottleneck in our submarine program as well. The SSN program got its CCS approval in 2015. Why do you think it was delayed?? Why is the Arihant class moving at snail's pace??? This is after all the Russian help in copying their reactor designs!!!

Submarine program was just an example, if you dont like it, you can look towards any other development program. I just mentioned Kaveri in my previous post. What was the budget of Kaveri program?? 2500 crores

DRDO has been begging for more funding because they dont have enough funds to establish testing facilities. Talent acquisition & testing facilities are the direct factors affected by how much funding you have. Why do you think DRDO is waiting for K9 testing??? They dont have a flying test-bed. Why do you think they dont have a flying test-bed? because Govt was convinced that they would save money by using russian facilities. Penny pinching. End result - beg for engine JV with france now. China was in the same boat as us, look at the difference in funding and the results they got.


You are just arguing semantics now. Rafale's non-stealth shaping + GaAs radar + Small size of radar makes sure it will lose against chinese stealth aircraft most of the times. India is paying $7 billion to buy puny amounts[26] of these mediocre aircraft that are sure to lose in an engagement with its adversary. I will call it horrible. You can call it whatever you like, whatever helps you feel better.


WTF are you on about??? It was confirmed at Aero India that Tejas mk2 will get GaN Uttam variant. Reps of AMPL confirmed it. DRDO owns the GaN MMIC tech, where does this assumption come from that Virupaksha is the only GaN radar. Hawk-I variants were also offered as GaN. WTF???


You need data to confirm that ramp launched Rafales will be less capable?? With no AWACS?? alright



I dont care enough about Rafales to find out the minute details about differences in the variants but I know for a fact that none of them have a GaN radar. It wont come before 2031. And when they do come, the french will suck you dry for those upgrades as they did with M-2000.


Why do you think TEDBF is delayed??? No funds.
When navy made up its req in 2018, they expected quick funding & flying prototypes to replace Mig29ks. But they never got the money. Now TEDBF is supposed to fly in 2038 or something, why??? again no funds.


Lets take a look the adverse effects of lack of funding by a factual report in another govt institution:

Sriharikota, we have a situation. Limited budget, manpower are stifling India’s space ambitions

Delayed funding cycles, ageing launch tech, unattractive salaries & an exodus of bright minds threaten to derail India’s space dreams before liftoff truly begins.

theprint.in

Any project starts when CCS approval is given and that happens only when the designs are completed. The S5 class, SSK and Tedbf are not even past their design completion so there is no point in giving them money when the designs haven't been finalized. These projects haven't even reached to a point where they require large funds. So how are you claiming that they lack funding?

You are even factually incorrect because the SSN program got the proper funding last year not 2015.

Why are you bringing Kaveri when the discussion is about Naval programs?

So now you are simply ignoring the fact that you called them objectively horrible instead of in comparison to the J 35s? I just countered that.

The GaN based radar for Tejas is still in development. There is no prototype and no news about it being near completion. The MK 2 will feature GaAs based radar for the prototype and until the GaN based radar is ready the GaAs based radar will be present on the MK 2, which from the looks of it will take time. So no it doesn't have a GaN based radar and you can claim for it to have GaN based radar only when the GaN based radar is available atleast as a prototype.

I need data to confirm that the Indian Rafale Ms will have "far less offensive capabilities" like you claimed, go and read it yourself.

The TEDBF hasn't even completed it's design phase. CCS gives money for prototype development not design development, that is handled by DRDO and Navy themselves. So the reason for delay is anything but funding.

No need to showcase the lack of funding when you are arguing about projects that haven't even completed their design phase for them to get CCS approvals for further development.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

Any project starts when CCS approval is given and that happens only when the designs are completed. The S5 class, SSK and Tedbf are not even past their design completion so there is no point in giving them money when the designs haven't been finalized. These projects haven't even reached to a point where they require large funds. So how are you claiming that they lack funding?

Circular logic. I'm telling you that these projects are delayed because the Institutions that are developing them dont have proper funding, instead GoI is busy importing weapons. You are replying that these projects havent started yet, so funding is not the problem.
The whole problem of delays is caused because improper funding causes hindrance in R&D, resulting in slow progress. Russians[Igor Spassky] designed the whole Arihant class for us in 1990s. We are in 2025 and have only 2 SSBNs in service. Why?? Anaemic funding. Cant even replicate a design handed to you in timely manner.

You are even factually incorrect because the SSN program got the proper funding last year not 2015.

yeah, can you explain why it took them a whole decade from CCS clearance to releasing the funds???

Why are you bringing Kaveri when the discussion is about Naval programs?

?????WTF??
What do you think Indian Navy's aircrafts fly with??? Thoughts & prayers??? or turbofans???
My original post was about GoI enriching french MIC instead of Indian MIC. Kaveri program was the first thing I mentioned. Kaveri is directly related to this discussion because in an ideal world, thats what Indian Navy's aircrafts should be flying on.

So now you are simply ignoring the fact that you called them objectively horrible instead of in comparison to the J 35s? I just countered that.

Uhh....I didnt ignore that. I called them horrible again in my reply to you. I will keep calling them horrible again & again cause thats what they are. J-35 has stealth shaping + bigger GaN radar + backed by fixed wing AWACS. Rafales have no chance against them unless fighting takes place within the vicinity of Indian shores.

The GaN based radar for Tejas is still in development. There is no prototype and no news about it being near completion. The MK 2 will feature GaAs based radar for the prototype and until the GaN based radar is ready the GaAs based radar will be present on the MK 2, which from the looks of it will take time. So no it doesn't have a GaN based radar and you can claim for it to have GaN based radar only when the GaN based radar is available atleast as a prototype.

I just told you that AMPL reps at aero india confirmed GaN variant of Uttam for Tejas MK2. You can believe whatever you want, I'm telling you what I know.

I need data to confirm that the Indian Rafale Ms will have "far less offensive capabilities" like you claimed, go and read it yourself.

What part of "Ramp takeoff means reduced payload capacity" do you not understand??? There are only 2 ways to reduce take-off weight - you either reduce your fuel or reduce your payload. Reduced fuel means less on-station time. Reduced payload means reduced offensive capabilities. I hope this was clear enough.

The TEDBF hasn't even completed it's design phase. CCS gives money for prototype development not design development, that is handled by DRDO and Navy themselves. So the reason for delay is anything but funding.

lmao, TEDBF, in its Aero India 2023 form, has already been shelved. It will now be a naval version of AMCA. It was never going to make sense economically or technologically.

Huh....? weird?? since TEDBF hadn't reached funding stage, why was it shelved in its previous avatar??? Maybe because it doesn't make economic sense.

No need to showcase the lack of funding when you are arguing about projects that haven't even completed their design phase for them to get CCS approvals for further development.

Oh my god dude.....the whole point is that projects take so long because R&D has been choked due budgetary constraints. I just gave you the example of ISRO. Such a respected organisation cant even retain its scientists, forget recruiting from IITs, why??? They dont offer good salaries, thats why.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Rafale is a proven weapons system. J-35 is not. Just because J-35 has stealth shaping, doesn't make it better by default. Low-RCS is just a part(a vital part indeed) of air-combat, not be all end all. Period.

If anyone's a** is on fire post this 26 Rafale M deal, they are about to feel even more heat once we ink 114 MRFA deal for local production of Rafale C. Lol.

 

[Zarion]

Circular logic. I'm telling you that these projects are delayed because the Institutions that are developing them dont have proper funding, instead GoI is busy importing weapons. You are replying that these projects havent started yet, so funding is not the problem.
The whole problem of delays is caused because improper funding causes hindrance in R&D, resulting in slow progress. Russians[Igor Spassky] designed the whole Arihant class for us in 1990s. We are in 2025 and have only 2 SSBNs in service. Why?? Anaemic funding. Cant even replicate a design handed to you in timely manner.

yeah, can you explain why it took them a whole decade from CCS clearance to releasing the funds???


?????WTF??
What do you think Indian Navy's aircrafts fly with??? Thoughts & prayers??? or turbofans???
My original post was about GoI enriching french MIC instead of Indian MIC. Kaveri program was the first thing I mentioned. Kaveri is directly related to this discussion because in an ideal world, thats what Indian Navy's aircrafts should be flying on.


Uhh....I didnt ignore that. I called them horrible again in my reply to you. I will keep calling them horrible again & again cause thats what they are. J-35 has stealth shaping + bigger GaN radar + backed by fixed wing AWACS. Rafales have no chance against them unless fighting takes place within the vicinity of Indian shores.



I just told you that AMPL reps at aero india confirmed GaN variant of Uttam for Tejas MK2. You can believe whatever you want, I'm telling you what I know.


What part of "Ramp takeoff means reduced payload capacity" do you not understand??? There are only 2 ways to reduce take-off weight - you either reduce your fuel or reduce your payload. Reduced fuel means less on-station time. Reduced payload means reduced offensive capabilities. I hope this was clear enough.


lmao, TEDBF, in its Aero India 2023 form, has already been shelved. It will now be a naval version of AMCA. It was never going to make sense economically or technologically.
View attachment 42204
Huh....? weird?? since TEDBF hadn't reached funding stage, why was it shelved in its previous avatar??? Maybe because it doesn't make economic sense.


Oh my god dude.....the whole point is that projects take so long because R&D has been choked due budgetary constraints. I just gave you the example of ISRO. Such a respected organisation cant even retain its scientists, forget recruiting from IITs, why??? They dont offer good salaries, thats why.

GoI has almost never funded any designing phase of projects they only give funds when there is an understanding between the armed forces and DRDO for the final product so attributing design development delays to funding issues makes no sense. These organisations are usually funded by the respective armed forces for design development and if significant funds are required only then the GoI gives money for design development. Biggest example is the CATS program where 60% cost was covered by IAF not GoI.


Go and read some proper articles about the Arihant SSBN project, it's long timeline is not because of budget constraints. In fact a lot of investment was made into that. There were several technologies which were needed to be built from the scratch first.

If you think that there are only 2 SSBNs because of budget constraints then you don't even know the surface level stuff about the program. By the tone with which you are talking about the Arihant project I can tell you don't understand the whole program.

Again you are going on about the radar without knowing anything about it. You might as well claim the Uttam radar horrible, who knows.

The SSN program wasn't even initiated in 2015 it's design phase was initiated in 2019. Where are you reading stuff from? Almost everything you say doesn't make any sense.

Even if the Kaveri was somehow completed it wouldn't have been used in the TEDBF no matter what because the aircraft is built on F 414 engine which is a totally different class of engine from the Kaveri. So no it's not related to the Navy by any means.

Why was the 4.5 TEDBF shelved? Because the Navy changed there priority from 4.5 to 5 gen aircraft. Why would "funding" shelve the program when it hasn't even initiated? The GoI doesn't care if the DRDO asking money for 4.5 or 5th gen platform, they only give money when the designs are completed and the files move to CCS for prototype development.

Yes GaN based radar will be mounted on the MK 2 but not rn, for now the MK 2 will have an GaAs based radar until the GaN based radar is ready, which is taking time. You can't claim that an aircraft "has" certain technology when that technology is still in development. It's like me claiming that Rafale has a GaN based radar because the F 5 program is going on.

Scientists salaries is totally different issue from TEDBF, S5,etc taking time to complete design phase. R&D is not initiated if the DRDO doesn't have money for it. Any project that involves major costs and Armed forces involvement are often lifted by the respective armed forces not GoI.

The reason for delays in design phase is more often then not attributed to armed forces changing there final configurations like the Navy for the TEDBF, IAF for Tejas or Army for Arjun not GoI which doesn't even give budget for design phase most of the times because they are not involved in designing a system at all.

Please don't reply to me now, I don't want to read your rants which make no sense whatsoever. You can't accept that certain systems don't become objectively horrible just because a better system is available, you don't understand the Arihant program, you can't understand as to why Kaveri program isn't related to IN, you can't wrap your head around the fact that design development delays are usually associated with the Armed forces or some other reasons.

I repeat please do me a favour and don't reply to my comments, there is no point of discussion with you anymore, believe whatever you want to believe.

PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

GoI has almost never funded any designing phase of projects they only give funds when there is an understanding between the armed forces and DRDO for the final product so attributing design development delays to funding issues makes no sense. These organisations are usually funded by the respective armed forces for design development and if significant funds are required only then the GoI gives money for design development. Biggest example is the CATS program where 60% cost was covered by IAF not GoI.

"attributing design development delays to funding issues makes no sense"
I just posted a whole article from The Print detailing how funding crunch is hindering ISRO's progress & you just ignore all that.

You keep focussing on individual programs while I'm talking about institutional lethargy due to drip-feeding of funds. A test lab created for engine design & testing will not be limited to just that particular engine. It will be used for further spin-offs. 2500 crore for kaveri meant that they never created adequate infra for engine testing. You can see the result of that penny pinching as GoI is begging for an engine JV.

You have taken this whole converation into a different direction. So, let me reiterate my original point: GoI is enriching french MIC instead of Indian MIC. You can keep on going in rounds from this point on.

Go and read some proper articles about the Arihant SSBN project, it's long timeline is not because of budget constraints. In fact a lot of investment was made into that. There were several technologies which were needed to be built from the scratch first.

If you think that there are only 2 SSBNs because of budget constraints then you don't even know the surface level stuff about the program. By the tone with which you are talking about the Arihant project I can tell you don't understand the whole program.

I dont need to have a PhD in Arihant design to know that the progress has been going on at snail's pace. Hiring more scientists from better universities would invariably improve the speed of any project. Again that print arcticle clearly mentions how ISRO is unable to hire the best minds in this country due to budgetary limitations.

Again you are going on about the radar without knowing anything about it. You might as well claim the Uttam radar horrible, who knows.

Sure man.....you must know everything about that radar, even more than the company that made it. You have reps from the production partner[AMPL] saying something & on the other hand you have a random guy on internet saying opposite thing. Which one shall I believe......hmm?? Difficult decision.

The SSN program wasn't even initiated in 2015 it's design phase was initiated in 2019. Where are you reading stuff from? Almost everything you say doesn't make any sense.

Dude.....nah....a simple google search. CCS clearance same in 2015.

Government clears construction of 7 stealth frigates, 6 nuclear-powered attack submarines

Under the over Rs 50,000 crore 'Project-17A' for stealth frigates, four will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and three in Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers in Kolkata.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Yes GaN based radar will be mounted on the MK 2 but not rn, for now the MK 2 will have an GaAs based radar until the GaN based radar is ready, which is taking time. You can't claim that an aircraft "has" certain technology when that technology is still in development. It's like me claiming that Rafale has a GaN based radar because the F 5 program is going on.

I guess we'll see in a few years time which aircraft goes into production first, Rafale F5 with GaN AESAR or Tejas mk2 with GaN AESAR.

The reason for delays in design phase is more often then not attributed to armed forces changing there final configurations like the Navy for the TEDBF, IAF for Tejas or Army for Arjun not GoI which doesn't even give budget for design phase most of the times because they are not involved in designing a system at all.

TEDBF was first mooted in 2018. you can go to the first page of that program on this very website. Navy was being ignored in AMCA develpment, so TEDBF was born.
Read this:

The Bittersweet Dilemma Of India's AMCA 5th Generation Fighter - Livefist

As DefExpo, India's flagship trade show for land-based and naval armament, kicks off, it's difficult to duck the fact that the flavour in the air is wholesomely aviation. India has billions of dollars worth of contracts in the navy and army space up for grabs, contracts that you'd think earn…

www.livefistdefence.com

In 2025, TEDBF & AMCA are being merged. We've come back full circle. Navy was not responsible for this bakchodi.

“The DRDO/ADA has not yet been able to obtain approval from the government for the funding that may be necessary to carry out this feasibility study. Financial and personnel participation hasn’t even been sought yet by ADA. It hasn’t moved for over two years now,” the Indian Navy officer quoted above tells Livefist.

Turf-fighting among sister services. Change in config isn't the problem here. these people [ADA+HAL] couldn't fu_cking design a plane in a decade so the plane itself became irrelevant.

Please don't reply to me now, I don't want to read your rants which make no sense whatsoever. You can't accept that certain systems don't become objectively horrible just because a better system is available

LMAO...we arent talking about buying grocery here. Its about combat aircrafts. If the product you are buying, at exorbitant costs, is already outclassed from day 1 as compared to your adversary, add to that its non-stealth shaping makes it physically impossible to ever catch up, that plane is objectively horrible. Buying a plane that ensures you wont ever win is a horrible deal.

I repeat please do me a favour and don't reply to my comments, there is no point of discussion with you anymore, believe whatever you want to believe.

PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.

You are free not to engage. I'm not holding a gun to your head to force you to reply.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

Rafale is a proven weapons system. J-35 is not. Just because J-35 has stealth shaping, doesn't make it better by default. Low-RCS is just a part(a vital part indeed) of air-combat, not be all end all. Period.

Keep inhaling this copium...lmao....i'm sure indian pilots would love to fight stealth a/c with a non-stealth a/c. On one hand we have IAF chief berating HAL for delays in tejas & keeps on railing for fast tracking of AMCA, on the other hand Rafale fanboys are living in their own delululand. I wonder if Rafale is more than enough, why is IAF so impatient about AMCA???? hmm....lol.

If anyone's a** is on fire post this 26 Rafale M deal, they are about to feel even more heat once we ink 114 MRFA deal for local production of Rafale C. Lol.

The irony of a $2500 pci bhookha nanga indian celebrating imports..........hahahaha.......incredible!!! This is like those trump supporters, destroying their own country to own the libs.....lol

I really want to post that meme of a guy shitting on a railway track while shit-talking someone on his mobile but I know it will be removed. lol.

 

[randomradio]

We are always too parsimonious. We should have gone for 36+36= 72 Rafales for IAF along with 26+26= 52 Rafales for the IN.

Anyways, more Rafale are always good for us and bad for our enemy

I guess we are skipping MRFA and jumping straight to a GTG for 114.

 

[Hydra]

GoI has almost never funded any designing phase of projects they only give funds when there is an understanding between the armed forces and DRDO for the final product so attributing design development delays to funding issues makes no sense. These organisations are usually funded by the respective armed forces for design development and if significant funds are required only then the GoI gives money for design development. Biggest example is the CATS program where 60% cost was covered by IAF not GoI.


Go and read some proper articles about the Arihant SSBN project, it's long timeline is not because of budget constraints. In fact a lot of investment was made into that. There were several technologies which were needed to be built from the scratch first.

If you think that there are only 2 SSBNs because of budget constraints then you don't even know the surface level stuff about the program. By the tone with which you are talking about the Arihant project I can tell you don't understand the whole program.

Again you are going on about the radar without knowing anything about it. You might as well claim the Uttam radar horrible, who knows.

The SSN program wasn't even initiated in 2015 it's design phase was initiated in 2019. Where are you reading stuff from? Almost everything you say doesn't make any sense.

Even if the Kaveri was somehow completed it wouldn't have been used in the TEDBF no matter what because the aircraft is built on F 414 engine which is a totally different class of engine from the Kaveri. So no it's not related to the Navy by any means.

Why was the 4.5 TEDBF shelved? Because the Navy changed there priority from 4.5 to 5 gen aircraft. Why would "funding" shelve the program when it hasn't even initiated? The GoI doesn't care if the DRDO asking money for 4.5 or 5th gen platform, they only give money when the designs are completed and the files move to CCS for prototype development.

Yes GaN based radar will be mounted on the MK 2 but not rn, for now the MK 2 will have an GaAs based radar until the GaN based radar is ready, which is taking time. You can't claim that an aircraft "has" certain technology when that technology is still in development. It's like me claiming that Rafale has a GaN based radar because the F 5 program is going on.

Scientists salaries is totally different issue from TEDBF, S5,etc taking time to complete design phase. R&D is not initiated if the DRDO doesn't have money for it. Any project that involves major costs and Armed forces involvement are often lifted by the respective armed forces not GoI.

The reason for delays in design phase is more often then not attributed to armed forces changing there final configurations like the Navy for the TEDBF, IAF for Tejas or Army for Arjun not GoI which doesn't even give budget for design phase most of the times because they are not involved in designing a system at all.

Please don't reply to me now, I don't want to read your rants which make no sense whatsoever. You can't accept that certain systems don't become objectively horrible just because a better system is available, you don't understand the Arihant program, you can't understand as to why Kaveri program isn't related to IN, you can't wrap your head around the fact that design development delays are usually associated with the Armed forces or some other reasons.

I repeat please do me a favour and don't reply to my comments, there is no point of discussion with you anymore, believe whatever you want to believe.

PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.

I think he is the same guy with the name "Ashok" in now closed peeedi eff forum from our enemy in west. People may be remembering that guy i believe.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911080274231779579

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911080274231779579

The new Rafale IN gonna purchase is just f4 standard or F4 standard with F5 compatible upgradable hardware?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

From Precision Strikes To Nuclear Deterrence, How 26 Rafales Can Be A Game-Changer For Navy
Monday, April 14, 2025 by Indian Defence News

The induction of 26 Rafale-Marine (Rafale-M) fighter jets into the Indian Navy marks a transformative step in bolstering India’s naval and aerial capabilities. These advanced aircraft, tailored for carrier-based operations, represent a game-changer in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), enhancing the Navy's ability to project power, maintain maritime security, and counter regional threats, particularly from China.

The Rafale-M is equipped with cutting-edge avionics like the Thales RBE2-AA AESA radar and Spectra electronic warfare systems, coupled with advanced weaponry such as Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAMs) and Exocet anti-ship missiles.

These features enable the aircraft to perform multi-role missions, including air superiority, precision strikes, and maritime operations, ensuring dominance in diverse combat scenarios. Its super-cruise capability allows sustained high-speed flight without afterburners, extending its operational range and fuel efficiency—key for long-range missions over vast oceanic expanses.

Designed for seamless integration with aircraft carriers like INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, the Rafale-M boasts reinforced landing gear, tail hooks for arrested landings, and foldable wings for efficient storage.

These attributes enhance the Navy's operational flexibility and readiness for rapid deployment. The aircraft's advanced sensors and network-centric warfare capabilities improve maritime domain awareness, crucial for monitoring sea lines of communication (SLOCs) and identifying potential threats in real-time.

Strategically, the Rafale-M provides India with a critical edge over China's naval forces. While China's J-15 fighters are heavier and less manoeuvrable, the Rafale-M’s agility, superior avionics, and longer range offer a decisive advantage in carrier-based aerial warfare.

Furthermore, the interoperability between the Navy’s Rafale-M fleet and the Indian Air Force’s existing Rafales streamlines joint operations, logistics, and training. This synergy reduces costs while enhancing India’s overall deterrence posture.

The Rafale-M’s ability to conduct nuclear deterrence missions further strengthens India’s strategic capabilities. Its buddy-buddy refuelling system extends combat endurance, enabling operations far from mainland bases or friendly territories. This capability is vital for safeguarding critical maritime choke-points like the Malacca Strait and countering China’s expanding presence in the IOR.

In summary, the acquisition of 26 Rafale-M jets is not merely an upgrade but a strategic leap forward for India’s naval aviation. It fortifies India’s maritime dominance, ensures operational readiness against evolving threats, and reinforces its position as a key player in maintaining stability in the IOR.