Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

What should we select?


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The Rafale won purely based on tech specs. In fact, they don't even know the price, 'cause that's not what the IN checks.
Yet India said both met their requirement needs? That is the end of the spec comparison.
They won because as I have said. It was common sense not to have another brand of aircraft to support. It is better to have more Rafales.
...and 4 two-seater aircraft, which will make the Indian Navy the first user of the two-seater Rafale in a navalised version :love:
Think they will just be land trainers
 
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...and 4 two-seater aircraft, which will make the Indian Navy the first user of the two-seater Rafale in a navalised version :love:
That honestly seems like a confusion of the author. Doesn't make economic sense to develop a new variant for a production run of four. They can use a combination of regular land-based two-seaters, simulators, and regular one-seat naval aircraft.

Besides, the TEDBF is also planned to only come in single-seater version, without a twin-seater, so it can't be that strong of an Indian requirement to have naval twin-seaters.
 
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That honestly seems like a confusion of the author. Doesn't make economic sense to develop a new variant for a production run of four. They can use a combination of regular land-based two-seaters, simulators, and regular one-seat naval aircraft.

Besides, the TEDBF is also planned to only come in single-seater version, without a twin-seater, so it can't be that strong of an Indian requirement to have naval twin-seaters.
yeah, possibly…
but « what if » IN need 2 seaters for strategic missions?
[edit] please forget: french navy does it w/ single seaters
 
Yet India said both met their requirement needs? That is the end of the spec comparison.
They won because as I have said. It was common sense not to have another brand of aircraft to support. It is better to have more Rafales.

Think they will just be land trainers
It could be that to overcome the advantage of F-18 blk3, DA decided to make a two seater marine aircraft. It will not be a major effort for them as a naval version already exists.
 
Their Akulas are in a real sorry state. Not just submarines but their whole navy. But they have worked really well on their SSBN program.

The Akulas are for 10 years at a time, so that's manageable. And they are required for training crews, and during problem times, the Akulas are better than what the Chinese currently operate.

2 subs will also provide the required deterrent effect in the IOR until we properly train and create a doctrine for our own subs, which could take until the late 2030s.

With Project Laika coming up, I'm hoping the Russians offer the Yasen-M to India. Just 2 of these boats will cater to any deficiencies our SSNs will face until the next gen subs come in.
 
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India selects the Rafale Marine and wants to strengthen its partnership with France in the submarine sector

The contracts have not yet been signed, but the decision has been made. On the fringes of the visit to France by Prime Minister Narenda Modi, who was the guest of honour at the 14 July festivities, India announced its intention to acquire 26 Rafale Marine combat aircraft and to deepen its submarine partnership with France, with a view to building three additional Scorpene-type vessels.

Following an international competition to procure combat aircraft for its two aircraft carriers, India selected the Rafale Marine, the first of which entered service with the Charles de Gaulle in 2001. The Dassault Aviation aircraft, which has undergone a number of upgrades since then and continues to integrate new systems, won out over its American rival, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet. The two aircraft manufacturers were finalists in a process that formally began in 2017, when New Delhi issued a request for information (RFI) for the acquisition of 57 aircraft capable of operating on the Vikramaditya and Vikrant aircraft carriers, equipped with a springboard and a sloping runway with arresting strands. The aim is to beef up the on-board air group of the two vessels, which will be commissioned by the Indian Navy in 2013 and 2022 and currently only have MiG-29Ks. Some forty of these aircraft were purchased by India from Russia in the 2010s, but they have not been satisfactory.

An interim solution while waiting for an Indian on-board fighter

The initial target of acquiring 57 new aircraft has finally been reduced to just 26, as the Indian authorities want these foreign aircraft to be just an interim solution pending the development of the future nationally-designed airborne fighter, known by the acronym TEDBF (Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter). The Indian Navy hopes that this machine will be operational in the 2030s, bearing in mind that in the event of delays or urgent operational requirements, it will always be possible to order additional Rafales from France.

The Rafale Marine was chosen following a test campaign conducted last year with the French aircraft and its American rival at the Hansa land-based test site near Goa, where a 283-metre runway ending in a springboard was built. "This selection confirms the excellence of the Rafale, the exceptional quality of the link that unites Dassault Aviation and the Indian Forces, and the importance of the strategic relationship between India and France," comments Dassault Aviation, which has already delivered 36 Rafale Air to the Indian Air Force following an order notified in 2016 for €7.8 billion.

The purchase of 26 Rafale-Marines was approved on Thursday 13 July by the Indian Defence Procurement Council, three days after the Defence Procurement Board gave the green light. The delivery schedule for these aircraft is not yet known, nor is the package of weapons that will be supplied with them. However, it should be noted that New Delhi wants 22 single-seater and 4 two-seater aircraft, which will make the Indian Navy the first user of the two-seater Rafale in a navalised version. It was initially planned for the French Navy, which was to receive more than 80 Rafales for two aircraft carriers, before the target was reduced to 46 aircraft, all single-seaters.

As part of this order, the French Navy is also expected to lend its Indian counterpart two to four of its aircraft (it currently has 41) for pilot training purposes.

Extending the Scorpene series

In addition to the Rafale, and the prospect of French industry helping India to develop new-generation combat aircraft, New Delhi has also announced its intention to strengthen its partnership with France in the submarine sector. This comes as the P75 programme for six Scorpene-type vessels, ordered in 2005, draws to a close. Designed by Naval Group, these submarines were built under a technology transfer agreement by the Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) shipyard in Mumbai, which delivered the first in 2017. The sixth, currently undergoing trials, is due to enter service in 2024. "The 'Make in India' policy at the service of Indian sovereignty ('AatmaNirbhar') has been at the heart of the P75 programme, as well as other activities developed by Naval Group and its Indian industrial partners to provide the Indian Navy with the most modern naval defence technologies," stresses Naval Group, which is currently working with the Indians on a programme to equip their Scorpene vessels with an anaerobic propulsion system (AIP) to increase their diving autonomy.

Although the French manufacturer is no longer taking part in the competition for India's future P75I submarines, it is doing very well in the end. Given the estimated timeframe for this new programme (10 to 15 years) and New Delhi's desire to respond quickly to the growing power of the Chinese fleet, it has been decided to extend the Scorpene series. Three new submarines should therefore be ordered from MDL, this "off-the-shelf" solution enabling the Indian Navy to increase its submarine capabilities more quickly. Without having to stop at nine Scorpene submarines. Other naval cooperation projects between France and India are also under discussion. France could, for example, propose a conventionally powered version of France's new Barracuda nuclear attack submarines (NAS), or help India develop a new model of NAS, as it is doing with Brazil (on the non-nuclear parts of the submarine).

As with the aircraft, it also remains to be seen what weapons will be supplied alongside the order for these additional Scorpene submarines. The first six are already fielding MBDA's Exocet SM39 anti-ship missile, with Naval Group also looking to sell India its new F21 heavy torpedo. The Indian press, meanwhile, is referring to discussions on the MdCN naval cruise missile, the medium-change version of which, like the F21, is fitted on French submarines and can be integrated on Scorpene vessels.

Could just be a journalist's interpretation. Requires official announcement. If N is being considered, then more than 4 will be required.
 
Yet India said both met their requirement needs? That is the end of the spec comparison.

Both were selected 'cause both met minimum specs, but the better jet was still the Rafale. There is a ranking system.

They won because as I have said. It was common sense not to have another brand of aircraft to support. It is better to have more Rafales.

That doesn't matter. The IN will have Mig-29K, Rafale and TEDBF, 3 different aircraft on 3 different engines. At least with SH, both TEDBF and SH would sit on a common engine. So your argument has no merit. Commonality with the IAF is irrelevant if the IN's fleet alone is much more diverse on its own.

And I bet the SH was a whole lot cheaper than the Rafale. Its procurement price is most definitely lower, the difference is even more stark on a per hour basis, and we know for a fact the SH B3 is cheaper than the F-16 in operations cost by a significant margin.

Before the competition started, I had pointed out that cost won't be a major factor. The IN simply looked at the two jets in terms of capabilities, as that's their only mandate, and the Rafale won.

After giving it some more thought, given India's position on alliances, it makes sense to not create confusion in the skies in the SCS. While I considered a common airframe and weapons as an advantage during wartime, due to easy replenishment of weapons and aircraft, it would also mean the Chinese wouldn't be able to tell if they were attacked by India or the US. So it works as a double-edged sword if India doesn't want its intentions to be misunderstood. It's the same reason why we separate our nuclear missiles from our conventional missiles.
 
Damn i slept off like 10 times in 34 min video.

MRO of safran engine s are being done in India because of combined IAF & IN orders.

Commonality with IAF gives advantage s in Maintenance, Tactis, training.. Of course Astra + SAAW integration too.

And Usage of Two IAF bases.

Seems like Rafale fits easier than F18 in lifts.
Rafale is much better plane than F-18E/F. Once you experience Rafale, there is no turning back. Rafale M with Meteor will prove more than a match to PLAN J-15+ PL-15 combo. Plus it gives us an option to attack both China and Pakistan from different vectors that is totally unexpected by them.

The only sad part is we need around 200 Rafales combined for both IAF and IN. 36 won't win us a war but just a small skirmish. IN's order of 26 is also just a piecemeal one. We need around 60 for them too.
 
Rafale is much better plane than F-18E/F. Once you experience Rafale, there is no turning back. Rafale M with Meteor will prove more than a match to PLAN J-15+ PL-15 combo. Plus it gives us an option to attack both China and Pakistan from different vectors that is totally unexpected by them.

The only sad part is we need around 200 Rafales combined for both IAF and IN. 36 won't win us a war but just a small skirmish. IN's order of 26 is also just a piecemeal one. We need around 60 for them too.
Only 198 Rafale left to buy... :D
 
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On the frog site. Cheap at twice the price, is suppose to be an expression. 142m flyaway, in $ or euro?

  • 3.42 for 36 planes
  • 1.7 for ISE development

  • 1.7 for upgrading 2 bases
  • 0,352 pour LBP (Logistic Based on Performance)
  • 0.7 for armaments
 
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So what is the story pic? It was your post that I quoted

I think my guess before was that it would be about $120m flyaway. Less than the first Rafales at $160m
 
So what is the story pic? It was your post that I quoted

I think my guess before was that it would be about $120m flyaway. Less than the first Rafales at $160m
  • The fly away cost of the Rafale is around € 77 million
  • The fly away price of the Rafale is around € 92 million because a margin must be added to the cost and the reimbursement of the industrialists' participation in the development which was 25% and which must be recovered on the export market.
I said "order" because the different versions of the Rafale have different costs.

The 1.7 billion that you absolutely want to put in the fly away cost is a development cost. We do not put developments in the fly away cost because we do not know in advance on how many copies the development will be amortized. For example, the 26 new Rafales that India wants to acquire will certainly benefit from these ISEs at no additional cost and if the IAF orders 114 MRFAs from Dassault, this will also be the case. So we separate the fly away cost, which is a recurring cost, from the development costs, which only occur once.

It is possible that the fly away price takes into account some of the developments but for the ISE the target number of Rafale targeted was too imprecise and India preferred to pay in one go rather than commit to a target.
 
I agree. It all depends what you count. To have apple for apple, you need the Fr development cost added. You also need the IN alterations for their Flyaway, like with the other sale.

US F-35a URF unit recuring flyaway. FMS don't pay non-recuring flyaway costs. It includes development cost, but has the FMS fees and charges added. FMS fee 3.5%

So the 142m was euro. USD is $156.72. That is a similar cost to the last order of $160m flyaway. Considering that was 5 years ago and this is the M. $156 may not be a silly price comparison. Obviously with the f-35, there are no pods and such as extras. It seems these will be an Indian add on. It will add at least another $10m

Are you saying the 92m includes a 25% export fee? I thought the export fee was in the 1.7m Are you suggesting that the French production cost is ~77m euro? I think I saw bigger numbers on your airdefense
 
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Are you saying the 92m includes a 25% export fee? I thought the export fee was in the 1.7m Are you suggesting that the French production cost is ~77m euro? I think I saw bigger numbers on your airdefense
Rafale développement is around € 25 billion
25% is around 6.25 billion
For 284 Rafale export 6.25/284 = 22 million
77 + 22= 99 but it is sell at 95 because we hope more export (in the range of 350)
Same approach as civil aircraft but for 25% only.
 
We both did our flying training together as part of 141PC in AFA. He is from maritime recce stream. If you go thru the full interview, he has stated what I had told you people much before that about spot factor. compared to SH F-18, 4 additional Rafales can be carried and that is a big factor in Rafale-M win.
I wasn't aware of that. that is another good reason.
I thought it was a good enough reason to get the Rafale, because you already had the infrastructure. It saved the cost of introducing another new platform. i don't need anything else.
Rafale développement is around € 25 billion
25% is around 6.25 billion
For 284 Rafale export 6.25/284 = 22 million
77 + 22= 99 but it is sell at 95 because we hope more export (in the range of 350)
So it is your number and not official? It would help if links could be provided.
 
I wasn't aware of that. that is another good reason.
I thought it was a good enough reason to get the Rafale, because you already had the infrastructure. It saved the cost of introducing another new platform. i don't need anything else.

So it is your number and not official? It would help if links could be provided.
25% by indutrialist is official
25 billions for developpement is an approximation (need to go to the price of all standard to get a precise price)
The range of 350 export is my own guess, due to Indian Price.