Navy may pick up Karakurt corvettes from Russia

[randomradio]

Navy may pick up Karakurt corvettes from Russia

Guided missile corvettes from Russia might soon make their way to India, with Russia looking to export its Project 22800 corvettes, code-named ‘Karakurt’, armed with the Kaliber missiles, to countries in the Asia-Pacific region. Apart from India, the corvettes could also be shipped to Vietnam and China.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told local media that the Indian Navy could soon get the warships armed with the lethal Kaliber land attack cruise missile that is capable of hitting the enemy 2,500 km away.

At present, Kora-class corvettes are in active service with the Indian Navy. Four vessels were built at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers and outfitted at Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai. The Navy is looking to acquire seven new-generation guided missile corvettes at a cost of $2 billion to replace its Russian 1241-RE missile boats. Several European and Russian shipyards have been eyeing the contract.

Terming the Project 22800 ships “very successful”, Borisov said the vessels have a big tonnage and large displacement, and are well-armed. “Ships of this class could be of interest to India, China, or Vietnam, along with other countries,” he added.

Incidentally, the Russian Navy itself is set to take delivery of the new corvettes.

Project 22800

Terming them good export potential, Borisov said the first three vessels of Project 22800 corvettes were being built at the Eastern shipyard, and have already generated interest from friendly navies.

The Project 22800 corvettes are a series of Russian artillery missile vessels developed by the Almaz Central Maritime Design Bureau. They feature a maximum displacement of 800 metric tonnes and a maximum speed of 30 knots.

The corvettes are being built to renew the Russian Navy’s fleet which is due to receive 18 of the small-sized Project 22800 ships, including the first two this year. The maiden ship was commissioned last July and is undergoing sea trials at the Pella shipyard on the Neva River. The vessels are armed with high-precision missiles and modern artillery systems.

The Karakurt-class corvette, which derived its name from the black widow spider, has been designed as a blue-water upgrade of the Buyan-M class missile boats currently deployed by Russia’s Caspian Flotilla and Black Sea Fleet.

 

[randomradio]

 

[randomradio]

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The future projects for Navy
1. 6 NG OPVs
2. 7 NGCs
3. 6 NGMVs

This Russian ship doesn't fit anywhere. So in simple terms, it ain't coming.

 

[Ashwin]

Paid news from Russia. All our current corvettes will be replaced by Indian design. (NGMV would be local production)

• 4 Project 28 (8 more hopefully)
• 16 Shallow water ASW corvettes (700 ton)
• 6 NGMV (Kora-class replacement)
• 7 Next Generation Corvettes (RFI out In October 2016)

 

[randomradio]

Can't say. The article makes it sound like it's only the Russians offering the corvette for exports.

But there is a chance the Russians are offering the 2500Km Kalibr 3M-14 to the IN with the sale of the corvettes. We had asked for the long range Kalibr back in 2016, after MTCR. So it is likely that the Russians will allow the sale along with the corvettes, and even the 4 new frigates may be part of the deal, while also opening up the missile for installation on our own ships.

The missiles will put half of China, all of the SCS and Pakistan within range of our ships in the Bay of Bengal, a capability which we will lack for at least another decade even with the development of Nirbhay. Plus, Kalibr is a proven weapon.

 

[Ashwin]

Can't say. The article makes it sound like it's only the Russians offering the corvette for exports.

But there is a chance the Russians are offering the 2500Km Kalibr 3M-14 to the IN with the sale of the corvettes. We had asked for the long range Kalibr back in 2016, after MTCR. So it is likely that the Russians will allow the sale along with the corvettes, and even the 4 new frigates may be part of the deal, while also opening up the missile for installation on our own ships.

The missiles will put half of China, all of the SCS and Pakistan within range of our ships in the Bay of Bengal, a capability which we will lack for at least another decade even with the development of Nirbhay. Plus, Kalibr is a proven weapon.

If we want Kalibr we will modify one of our OPV designs and put it in it. This is an advt for 800ton corvette. Which is a big NO.

 

[randomradio]

If we want Kalibr we will modify one of our OPV designs and put it in it. This is an advt for 800ton corvette. Which is a big NO.

That's the point. "You want Kalibr, buy a few of our corvettes along with it".

It's a sellers market for strategic systems.

 

[Ashwin]

That's the point. "You want Kalibr, buy a few of our corvettes along with it".

It's a sellers market for strategic systems.

Strategic system? Kalibr is not a special weapon on any count. We already use them, the only difference is range . why do you want such long range to target pakistani's anyway? i mean, How is that a game changer like S400 ?

 

[randomradio]

Strategic system? Kalibr is not a special weapon on any count. We already use them, the only difference is range . why do you want such long range to target pakistani's ? How is that a game changer like S400 ?

Long range weapons are strategic systems, that's why MTCR explicitly forbids it, or else we wouldn't have MTCR. Even the US is extremely careful about who they sell their long range systems to.

And it's not just the Pakistanis, it's also the Chinese and is relevant to the entire IOR as well. The longer the range, the more strategic the navy's reach, even against Pakistan. It will give the IN an unbelievable capability, the ability to attack any target in Pakistan while sitting safe in and around the Karwar base, with unlimited reloads. The same against the Spratlys from A&N.

The biggest danger to the IN from both Pakistan and China is their submarine force. And ships are most vulnerable to submarines when they transit to and fro bases and warzones. Our current crop of corvettes with shorter range missiles have to be protected by capital ships. The Kalibr removes the need for escorts by a significant margin, since their transit time is practically non-existent.

The two systems cannot be compared, but the Kalibr is much more strategic than the S-400, since it's one of the best offensive systems there is. If we are allowed to buy such a system, we must get it no matter what the cost. If it means we can get a large amount of these missiles for a small amount of cheap corvettes, then it's the best possible deal we can get.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Long range weapons are strategic systems, that's why MTCR explicitly forbids it, or else we wouldn't have MTCR. Even the US is extremely careful about who they sell their long range systems to.

And it's not just the Pakistanis, it's also the Chinese and is relevant to the entire IOR as well. The longer the range, the more strategic the navy's reach, even against Pakistan. It will give the IN an unbelievable capability, the ability to attack any target in Pakistan while sitting safe in and around the Karwar base, with unlimited reloads. The same against the Spratlys from A&N.

The biggest danger to the IN from both Pakistan and China is their submarine force. And ships are most vulnerable to submarines when they transit to and fro bases and warzones. Our current crop of corvettes with shorter range missiles have to be protected by capital ships. The Kalibr removes the need for escorts by a significant margin, since their transit time is practically non-existent.

The two systems cannot be compared, but the Kalibr is much more strategic than the S-400, since it's one of the best offensive systems there is. If we are allowed to buy such a system, we must get it no matter what the cost. If it means we can get a large amount of these missiles for a small amount of cheap corvettes, then it's the best possible deal we can get.

Getting Kalibr missile would be a very welcome development

But we should speed up the P 75 I programme or buy more Scorpenes

The Eight new Pakistani submarines would give them good Sea Denial capabilities

 

[Ashwin]

Long range weapons are strategic systems, that's why MTCR explicitly forbids it, or else we wouldn't have MTCR. Even the US is extremely careful about who they sell their long range systems to.

MTCR failed to achieve its objective because of its based on arbitrary range. We were doing fine without it so is China.

And it's not just the Pakistanis, it's also the Chinese and is relevant to the entire IOR as well. The longer the range, the more strategic the navy's reach, even against Pakistan. It will give the IN an unbelievable capability, the ability to attack any target in Pakistan while sitting safe in and around the Karwar base, with unlimited reloads. The same against the Spratlys from A&N.

Why would you sit in karwar and attack pakistani bases? Those ships are designed to fight in high sea. Why can't you approach 500km and attack using Brahmos? Its a far deadly weapon.

The range is good to have feature for IN today. A decade down the line its expected. At least two long-range cruise missile is under development. Point is it's not a must to have or would change the balance of power.

The biggest danger to the IN from both Pakistan and China is their submarine force.

If the situation is critical we do have air-launched cruise missiles. Its doesn't mean we dont leave port.

The two systems cannot be compared, but the Kalibr is much more strategic than the S-400,

As i said, range won't automatically make a system 'stratagic'. Its just a good to have feature. No need to bend the rules and useless import ships again.

 

[Parthu]

Long range weapons are strategic systems, that's why MTCR explicitly forbids it, or else we wouldn't have MTCR. Even the US is extremely careful about who they sell their long range systems to.

And it's not just the Pakistanis, it's also the Chinese and is relevant to the entire IOR as well. The longer the range, the more strategic the navy's reach, even against Pakistan. It will give the IN an unbelievable capability, the ability to attack any target in Pakistan while sitting safe in and around the Karwar base, with unlimited reloads. The same against the Spratlys from A&N.

The biggest danger to the IN from both Pakistan and China is their submarine force. And ships are most vulnerable to submarines when they transit to and fro bases and warzones. Our current crop of corvettes with shorter range missiles have to be protected by capital ships. The Kalibr removes the need for escorts by a significant margin, since their transit time is practically non-existent.

The two systems cannot be compared, but the Kalibr is much more strategic than the S-400, since it's one of the best offensive systems there is. If we are allowed to buy such a system, we must get it no matter what the cost. If it means we can get a large amount of these missiles for a small amount of cheap corvettes, then it's the best possible deal we can get.

I believe Nirbhay (currently at a maximum of 1,200 kms) will eventually develop to be a system similar to Kalibr with a reach of ~2,500 kms or above. Especially the ship & submarine-launched versions we're planning. This will go hand-in-hand with development of space-based ISR capabilities.

But Nirb is gonna take time to develop & mature. Give it another 5 to 8 years, and we will have at least 3-4 different variants of it, with all kinds of launch options (land, air, ship, submarine).

Some range-unlocked Kalibrs in the meantime wouldn't hurt.

However I am dead set against buying foreign ships. The Russians are in their right mind when they made this offer (if we assume the full-range Kalibr was indeed offered), however if we buy these corvettes, it will take away money laid out for IN's capital expenditure. This means orders for indigenous ships will be affected.

I think that we're already making a huge mistake by going for 4 new Batch-III Talwar class FFGs (Adm. Grigorovich) from Russia. Instead, even 3 more Project-17A FFGs (bring in GSL as third shipyard in India capable of building main surface combatants) would have been a better choice.

In fact we should have ordered 6 ships of the original Project-17 class instead of Batch-II Talwar.

So all in all, while I see the merit in having something like the full-range Kalibr, I don't think its right to sacrifice IN budget for ships (which could be better utilized ordering more Indian ships) in order to attain this capability, which I'm pretty confident we'd end up getting anyway with future versions of the Nirbhay, a while longer down the road.

 

[randomradio]

MTCR failed to achieve its objective because of its based on arbitrary range. We were doing fine without it so is China.

We are not doing fine. China is, because they already have this stuff through the Soviet Union.

However, MTCR has successfully stopped India from buying such missiles. And no, it's not based on an arbitrary range, the range restriction in fact sucks bad for us.

Why would you sit in karwar and attack pakistani bases? Those ships are designed to fight in high sea. Why can't you approach 500km and attack using Brahmos? Its a far deadly weapon.

1. It frees up capital ships for more important missions.
2. Brahmos isn't the answer to everything. Just look at the price difference. You can have 4 or 5 Kalibrs for the price of 1 Brahmos, all fired from relative safety.

The range is good to have feature for IN today. A decade down the line its expected. At least two long-range cruise missile is under development. Point is it's not a must to have or would change the balance of power.

Why wait a decade when we can get something now? And this missile seriously changes power balance between India and Pakistan, while we get parity with China. The power balance right now is in China's favour when it comes to long range systems.

If the situation is critical we do have air-launched cruise missiles. Its doesn't mean we dont leave port.

Air launched systems cannot pose as big a threat as 4 Corvettes with 8 missiles each. You need a fully operational squadron to match the firepower of 4 corvettes. Even better if the Karakurt is upgraded to carry 16 Kalibrs, it has the space for it. And 4 corvettes are far more stealthy than 18 fighter jets.

As i said, range won't automatically make a system 'stratagic'. Its just a good to have feature. No need to bend the rules and useless import ships again.

Bro, you don't know what you're talking about. Missiles follow waypoints, the greater the range, the more waypoints you can have. Even against a target 1000Km away, you can use up the entire 2500Km range by making use of the waypoints. This beats defences.

For example, the Pakistani defences alongside their western border is bad. We can have missiles fired from the Arabian Sea enter Pakistani airspace through Iran if necessary. And this fear will force them to spend more in protecting their other border also. Long range opens up entirely new set of tactics which are impossible with short range systems. The Americans in fact sacrificed short range + speed combo for long range systems.

 

[randomradio]

I believe Nirbhay (currently at a maximum of 1,200 kms) will eventually develop to be a system similar to Kalibr with a reach of ~2,500 kms or above. Especially the ship & submarine-launched versions we're planning. This will go hand-in-hand with development of space-based ISR capabilities.

But Nirb is gonna take time to develop & mature. Give it another 5 to 8 years, and we will have at least 3-4 different variants of it, with all kinds of launch options (land, air, ship, submarine).

Some range-unlocked Kalibrs in the meantime wouldn't hurt.

However I am dead set against buying foreign ships. The Russians are in their right mind when they made this offer (if we assume the full-range Kalibr was indeed offered), however if we buy these corvettes, it will take away money laid out for IN's capital expenditure. This means orders for indigenous ships will be affected.

I think that we're already making a huge mistake by going for 4 new Batch-III Talwar class FFGs (Adm. Grigorovich) from Russia. Instead, even 3 more Project-17A FFGs (bring in GSL as third shipyard in India capable of building main surface combatants) would have been a better choice.

In fact we should have ordered 6 ships of the original Project-17 class instead of Batch-II Talwar.

So all in all, while I see the merit in having something like the full-range Kalibr, I don't think its right to sacrifice IN budget for ships (which could be better utilized ordering more Indian ships) in order to attain this capability, which I'm pretty confident we'd end up getting anyway with future versions of the Nirbhay, a while longer down the road.

The ship launched version of the Nirbhay is far away. It's better to have a proven system now, than a yet to be developed system 10 years later.

Our current versions of Klubs don't come with very long range.

The IN will gladly buy 1 less destroyer in exchange for 16 Karakurts with 256 long range Kalibrs (2 salvos). This will still cost less than a P-15B destroyer, and open up the defences along the entire Pakistani coast with just 1 salvo. The Pakistanis with their current assets will be so helpless they won't even know how many missiles were used in the attack, while they have no capability to stop these missiles today. Once their coastal defences open up, their entire country is open to attack. Every single air base can be attacked with impunity. All within the first few hours of a war. Even better if we manage to upgrade the Karakurts with 16 missiles each, that's 256 missiles in a single attack, all at the price of a single destroyer. And 2 private shipyards can build this order and develop new capabilities.

And no, we need the Talwar class. The Indian shipyards are operating to their limits, they can't take any more orders and we are short by 10 frigates. We should in fact order 2 more and allow GSL to develop the capabilities to build larger ships. They are incapable of building the P-17 today, or the IN would have done it already.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The ship launched version of the Nirbhay is far away. It's better to have a proven system now, than a yet to be developed system 10 years later.

Our current versions of Klubs don't come with very long range.

The IN will gladly buy 1 less destroyer in exchange for 16 Karakurts with 256 long range Kalibrs (2 salvos). This will still cost less than a P-15B destroyer, and open up the defences along the entire Pakistani coast with just 1 salvo. The Pakistanis with their current assets will be so helpless they won't even know how many missiles were used in the attack, while they have no capability to stop these missiles today. Once their coastal defences open up, their entire country is open to attack. Every single air base can be attacked with impunity. All within the first few hours of a war. Even better if we manage to upgrade the Karakurts with 16 missiles each, that's 256 missiles in a single attack, all at the price of a single destroyer. And 2 private shipyards can build this order and develop new capabilities.

And no, we need the Talwar class. The Indian shipyards are operating to their limits, they can't take any more orders and we are short by 10 frigates. We should in fact order 2 more and allow GSL to develop the capabilities to build larger ships. They are incapable of building the P-17 today, or the IN would have done it already.

Why cannot we use Shaurya missiles from Ships

By the way what is your solution for these 8
New Pakistani submarines

More P 8 planes
More Kamortas
New multi role helicopters
Or More Scorpenes

 

[Parthu]

Why cannot we use Shaurya missiles from Ships

By the way what is your solution for these 8
New Pakistani submarines

More P 8 planes
More Kamortas
New multi role helicopters
Or More Scorpenes

SSN.

 

[randomradio]

Why cannot we use Shaurya missiles from Ships

The Shaurya does not have a sea skimming profile. Plus, Shauryas are expensive and more useful against hardened defences.

By the way what is your solution for these 8
New Pakistani submarines

More P 8 planes
More Kamortas
New multi role helicopters
Or More Scorpenes

All of the above, and more, like SSNs, AUVs and more underwater sensors. Right now, the most critical need is minesweepers.

 

[Milspec]

The ship launched version of the Nirbhay is far away. It's better to have a proven system now, than a yet to be developed system 10 years later.

Our current versions of Klubs don't come with very long range.

The IN will gladly buy 1 less destroyer in exchange for 16 Karakurts with 256 long range Kalibrs (2 salvos). This will still cost less than a P-15B destroyer, and open up the defences along the entire Pakistani coast with just 1 salvo. The Pakistanis with their current assets will be so helpless they won't even know how many missiles were used in the attack, while they have no capability to stop these missiles today. Once their coastal defences open up, their entire country is open to attack. Every single air base can be attacked with impunity. All within the first few hours of a war. Even better if we manage to upgrade the Karakurts with 16 missiles each, that's 256 missiles in a single attack, all at the price of a single destroyer. And 2 private shipyards can build this order and develop new capabilities.

And no, we need the Talwar class. The Indian shipyards are operating to their limits, they can't take any more orders and we are short by 10 frigates. We should in fact order 2 more and allow GSL to develop the capabilities to build larger ships. They are incapable of building the P-17 today, or the IN would have done it already.

I am fine as long as we get some ships, in the last 2-3 years, there has been barely any development. Recently I read somewhere that GSL wanted to put some UVLM's on Patrol Vessels. I haven't seen much on the Next gen missile vessel, I am hoping that to be a game changer, I don't know how feasible it would be but would be really cool to see a Ship mounted Sagarika/Shourya type module as a land attack role, instead of that Dhanush system being launched from a helipad.

 

[Milspec]

@randomradio @Ashwin What could this 430ft long ship in CSL's drydock be?