Navy may pick up Karakurt corvettes from Russia

[randomradio]

I am fine as long as we get some ships, in the last 2-3 years, there has been barely any development. Recently I read somewhere that GSL wanted to put some UVLM's on Patrol Vessels. I haven't seen much on the Next gen missile vessel, I am hoping that to be a game changer, I don't know how feasible it would be but would be really cool to see a Ship mounted Sagarika/Shourya type module as a land attack role, instead of that Dhanush system being launched from a helipad.

Why? It's been going good. 3 ships each of the Kolkata class and Kamorta class were commissioned during Modi's term. And under Modi, we signed up for 11 frigates.

The GSL patrol ships with VLMs, that's probably for the Brazilian corvette tender.
GRSE & GSL out of 9 candidates for Brazilian corvette programme (Tamandaré corvetas)

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio @Ashwin What could this 430ft long ship in CSL's drydock be?
View attachment 2985

Are you sure that's CSL? I don't recognise that dry dock.

 

[advaidhya]

Long range weapons are strategic systems, that's why MTCR explicitly forbids it, or else we wouldn't have MTCR. Even the US is extremely careful about who they sell their long range systems to.

And it's not just the Pakistanis, it's also the Chinese and is relevant to the entire IOR as well. The longer the range, the more strategic the navy's reach, even against Pakistan. It will give the IN an unbelievable capability, the ability to attack any target in Pakistan while sitting safe in and around the Karwar base, with unlimited reloads. The same against the Spratlys from A&N.

The biggest danger to the IN from both Pakistan and China is their submarine force. And ships are most vulnerable to submarines when they transit to and fro bases and warzones. Our current crop of corvettes with shorter range missiles have to be protected by capital ships. The Kalibr removes the need for escorts by a significant margin, since their transit time is practically non-existent.

The two systems cannot be compared, but the Kalibr is much more strategic than the S-400, since it's one of the best offensive systems there is. If we are allowed to buy such a system, we must get it no matter what the cost. If it means we can get a large amount of these missiles for a small amount of cheap corvettes, then it's the best possible deal we can get.

Kalibr is not more important than S400. Moreover, the cruise missiles can always be designed to fly even 8000km as the fuel is liuid and the engine is turbofan. It is just like extending the missile with proper adjustments for aerodynamics.

Moreover, for longer range strike, we seek to have ballistic missiles, not cruise missiles. Why not simply use Agni-2 to strike Pakistan ports and bases?

The ship launched version of the Nirbhay is far away. It's better to have a proven system now, than a yet to be developed system 10 years later.

Our current versions of Klubs don't come with very long range.

The IN will gladly buy 1 less destroyer in exchange for 16 Karakurts with 256 long range Kalibrs (2 salvos). This will still cost less than a P-15B destroyer, and open up the defences along the entire Pakistani coast with just 1 salvo. The Pakistanis with their current assets will be so helpless they won't even know how many missiles were used in the attack, while they have no capability to stop these missiles today. Once their coastal defences open up, their entire country is open to attack. Every single air base can be attacked with impunity. All within the first few hours of a war. Even better if we manage to upgrade the Karakurts with 16 missiles each, that's 256 missiles in a single attack, all at the price of a single destroyer. And 2 private shipyards can build this order and develop new capabilities.

And no, we need the Talwar class. The Indian shipyards are operating to their limits, they can't take any more orders and we are short by 10 frigates. We should in fact order 2 more and allow GSL to develop the capabilities to build larger ships. They are incapable of building the P-17 today, or the IN would have done it already.

The Karakurts are small 800ton vessels. If small vessels like these can carry 16 missiles, why do you think bigger destroyers in India can't have much more? Moreover, ships are meant for naval attack, not long range attacks. FOr long range attacks, we have ballistic missiles. What is the point of using ship to fire missiles for 2000km?

You are speaking as if India does not have long range missiles and are desperate to get some Kalibr missiles. Secondly Kalibr missiles need regular guidance and can be jammed by EW jammers. In such cases, terrain hugging can't be used and the cruise missile will have to use INS and fly high up.

 

[randomradio]

Kalibr is not more important than S400.

The comparison itself is wrong.

Moreover, the cruise missiles can always be designed to fly even 8000km as the fuel is liuid and the engine is turbofan. It is just like extending the missile with proper adjustments for aerodynamics.

No they can't. And cruise missiles generally have solid fuel.

Moreover, for longer range strike, we seek to have ballistic missiles, not cruise missiles. Why not simply use Agni-2 to strike Pakistan ports and bases?

1 Agni 2 will cost over $10M. 1 Kalibr will cost about $1M.

The Karakurts are small 800ton vessels. If small vessels like these can carry 16 missiles, why do you think bigger destroyers in India can't have much more? Moreover, ships are meant for naval attack, not long range attacks. FOr long range attacks, we have ballistic missiles. What is the point of using ship to fire missiles for 2000km?

Why don't you look up the composition of LACMs in American destroyers?

Why don't you look up the difference between cruise missiles and ballistic missiles?

You are speaking as if India does not have long range missiles and are desperate to get some Kalibr missiles.

Yes, India does not have long range missiles. China does.

Secondly Kalibr missiles need regular guidance and can be jammed by EW jammers. In such cases, terrain hugging can't be used and the cruise missile will have to use INS and fly high up.

It's clear you don't know the subject.

 

[Milspec]

Are you sure that's CSL? I don't recognise that dry dock.

sorry MDL

 

[Kvasir]

Moreover, for longer range strike, we seek to have ballistic missiles, not cruise missiles. Why not simply use Agni-2 to strike Pakistan ports and bases?

I've seen ballistic missile launches from IN ships for testing, but I'm not sure of it's an operational capability, however...

That's a Polaris A1 MRBM launched by Italian Navy cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi. During her conversion to a guided missile cruiser she was outfitted with four Polaris missile tubes.

Likewise the Italian Navy's helicopter cruiser Vittorio Veneto was outfited with four tubes of its own.

USS Long Beach was to carry the Regulus cruise missile, but it was practically obsolete from the start thanks to Polaris.

Like her Italian counterparts, USS Long Beach was outfitted with Polaris missile tubes in place of Regulus.

Sometimes you don't have to choose between cruise and ballistic missiles, especially on large ships. That aside, these 800ton Karakurt class corvettes have excellent firepower for their size.

*I'm not suggesting the IN actually arm ships with ballistic missiles. In the age of cruise missiles I think it's a waste of space. Just dropping some history on everyone.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio @Ashwin What could this 430ft long ship in CSL's drydock be?
View attachment 2985

Looks like a Talwar class. The VLS gives it away. We don't have any other ships of this size with VLS. The Shtil launcher and the lone RBU-6000 straddle the VLS.

There's another Talwar class undergoing refits in the adjoining dry dock, which is not shown in your picture.

 

[randomradio]

I've seen ballistic missile launches from IN ships for testing, but I'm not sure of it's an operational capability, however...

*I'm not suggesting the IN actually arm ships with ballistic missiles. In the age of cruise missiles I think it's a waste of space. Just dropping some history on everyone.

The BMs on IN ships were made to give a nuclear capable anti-carrier weapon. A 50kt nuke could be dropped as far as 700Km away using the Dhanush missile.

Now we have a new missile called Shaurya.

This missile is slightly longer and heavier than the Dhanush, but has a significantly smaller diameter. And it has twice the range while being twice as fast.

Since this missile is only slightly bigger than the Brahmos, Milspec proposed adding a small number of VLS based missiles into larger ships, thereby giving the IN a salvo launch nuclear capability against CBGs from 1500Km away.

As for now, we are using the Dhanush as a target missile for our BMD.

 

[Milspec]

Spot on, Gr88 eye.

Looks like a Talwar class. The VLS gives it away. We don't have any other ships of this size with VLS. The Shtil launcher and the lone RBU-6000 straddle the VLS.

There's another Talwar class undergoing refits in the adjoining dry dock, which is not shown in your picture.

Did you also catch the 209 and a kilo in refit?

 

[Angel Eyes]

Better to invest in more Kamorta Class for anti sub operations.

 

[randomradio]

Spot on, Gr88 eye.

Did you also catch the 209 and a kilo in refit?

That's actually the first thing I noticed.

If you go further up along the coast, by quite a bit, you will also see 4 P-15B in various stages of construction along with 1 Kalvari.

 

[Milspec]

That's actually the first thing I noticed.

If you go further up along the coast, by quite a bit, you will also see 4 P-15B in various stages of construction along with 1 Kalvari.

Will check it out,
Would be interesting to create a google map IN ship spotting thread. I was looking at Vizag and saw what looks like all three of the Rajput class.

Also guess what, secret telemetry surveillance ship, is out in full view.

 

[advaidhya]

1 Agni 2 will cost over $10M. 1 Kalibr will cost about $1M

Agni-2 costs 15 crore to make. Tomahawk costs 12 crore. Kalibr is likely same cost as Tomahawk. Most importantly, Agni-2 is very difficult to intercept without MRBM quality BMD system. Cruise missiles can be taken out by even BVRAAM missiles from JF17 jets. The speed of cruise missiles is about 0.7 Mach which is too less to be evasive. Terrain hugging works only if one can make sure of full terrain. But that is difficult as new things like trees, buildings, poles etc keep coming up and terrain can't be updated so quickly.

No they can't. And cruise missiles generally have solid fuel.

Almost all cruise missiles have liquid fuel. Tomahawk is liquid fuel, Klub missile is liquid fuel. These liquid fuel missiles need to be replaces and refueled every 5-10 years which adds to extra cost.

Why don't you look up the composition of LACMs in American destroyers?
Why don't you look up the difference between cruise missiles and ballistic missiles?

USA navy is operating far from its coast. If India is operating in Americas, we will need LACM in large numbers. Also, USA is looking more at limited warfare to secure oil than as a full blown warfare with larger objective.

Yes, India does not have long range missiles. China does.

India is making Nirbhay and will be complete in 4 years. Development work for a variety of Nirbhays are going on. Getting Russian mini corvettes is a drain of resource. Nirbhay is going to be 1500km cruise missile and that is enough.

I've seen ballistic missile launches from IN ships for testing, but I'm not sure of it's an operational capability, however...

That's a Polaris A1 MRBM launched by Italian Navy cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi. During her conversion to a guided missile cruiser she was outfitted with four Polaris missile tubes.

Likewise the Italian Navy's helicopter cruiser Vittorio Veneto was outfited with four tubes of its own.

USS Long Beach was to carry the Regulus cruise missile, but it was practically obsolete from the start thanks to Polaris.

Like her Italian counterparts, USS Long Beach was outfitted with Polaris missile tubes in place of Regulus.

Sometimes you don't have to choose between cruise and ballistic missiles, especially on large ships. That aside, these 800ton Karakurt class corvettes have excellent firepower for their size.

*I'm not suggesting the IN actually arm ships with ballistic missiles. In the age of cruise missiles I think it's a waste of space. Just dropping some history on everyone.

My pint is that for all strikes that India can make, there is no need for LACM but for Ballistic missile. LACM is easily intercepted and there is no target that will require such missiles.

Indian ships are also equally capable of holding as many missiles as Karakurt and even more if necessary. India deliberately keeps the number of missiles low to reduce operational costs and replacement/refueling costs

 

[randomradio]

Agni-2 costs 15 crore to make. Tomahawk costs 12 crore. Kalibr is likely same cost as Tomahawk. Most importantly, Agni-2 is very difficult to intercept without MRBM quality BMD system. Cruise missiles can be taken out by even BVRAAM missiles from JF17 jets. The speed of cruise missiles is about 0.7 Mach which is too less to be evasive. Terrain hugging works only if one can make sure of full terrain. But that is difficult as new things like trees, buildings, poles etc keep coming up and terrain can't be updated so quickly.

Almost all cruise missiles have liquid fuel. Tomahawk is liquid fuel, Klub missile is liquid fuel. These liquid fuel missiles need to be replaces and refueled every 5-10 years which adds to extra cost.


USA navy is operating far from its coast. If India is operating in Americas, we will need LACM in large numbers. Also, USA is looking more at limited warfare to secure oil than as a full blown warfare with larger objective.


India is making Nirbhay and will be complete in 4 years. Development work for a variety of Nirbhays are going on. Getting Russian mini corvettes is a drain of resource. Nirbhay is going to be 1500km cruise missile and that is enough.

My pint is that for all strikes that India can make, there is no need for LACM but for Ballistic missile. LACM is easily intercepted and there is no target that will require such missiles.

Indian ships are also equally capable of holding as many missiles as Karakurt and even more if necessary. India deliberately keeps the number of missiles low to reduce operational costs and replacement/refueling costs

Okay. Whatever you say, sir.

I shall immediately send this post to CNS Sunil Lanba and highly recommend your radical suggestions. The army is set out to create a RIIMA, I hope the navy also joins them.

I shall also immediately notify DRDO of their futility in creating the Nirbhay because new trees and buildings suddenly pop up during transit.

 

[randomradio]

Will check it out,
Would be interesting to create a google map IN ship spotting thread. I was looking at Vizag and saw what looks like all three of the Rajput class.

Also guess what, secret telemetry surveillance ship, is out in full view.

View attachment 2990

Yeah, this has been in full view for many moons now.

Skip over to Vizag SBC, you will find the Nerpa sitting in the dry dock. The Arihant is in a berth and Arighat inside the construction shed alongside the Arihant, both subs cordoned off by diving barrier nets and protected by a Khukri class corvette. The Arighat in fact seems to have a wider beam, unless of course, that's actually the S4.

In fact I think it is the S4.

 

[randomradio]

But isn't that the shed where they outfit the submarine? If that's the case, then it's the Arighat.

 

[GuardianRED]

Looks like a Talwar class. The VLS gives it away. We don't have any other ships of this size with VLS. The Shtil launcher and the lone RBU-6000 straddle the VLS.

There's another Talwar class undergoing refits in the adjoining dry dock, which is not shown in your picture.

Excellent Find! - Still what exactly are the refits are these hull undergoing?

+

I thought the 209 is heading to Germany for her refit no?

 

[GuardianRED]

Yeah, this has been in full view for many moons now.

Skip over to Vizag SBC, you will find the Nerpa sitting in the dry dock. The Arihant is in a berth and Arighat inside the construction shed alongside the Arihant, both subs cordoned off by diving barrier nets and protected by a Khukri class corvette. The Arighat in fact seems to have a wider beam, unless of course, that's actually the S4.

In fact I think it is the S4.
View attachment 2992

Nerpa still in drydock? how old do you estimate these images are?

 

[randomradio]

Excellent Find! - Still what exactly are the refits are these hull undergoing?

+

I thought the 209 is heading to Germany for her refit no?

Refits are basically the same as servicing, fixing and replacing worn out parts and so on.

Whereas the Germans will be upgrading 2 subs with new weapons, C&C, perhaps even engines and so on.

 

[randomradio]

Nerpa still in drydock? how old do you estimate these images are?

Likely the latest.