PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
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This is just 60% increase in thrust. We have had many engines with 75% thurst increase as well
The key reasons for IAF to leave FGFA program as per latest revelation by AMCA development authorities in The Week magzine.
1- Russia denied to share any source code to india. IAF has asked for complete source code for future upgradation without russian help.
2- Russians were not making any 5th gen plane at all. The were focusing on a highly maneuverable aircraft with compromised stealth.
3- Indians were thinking that it will be highly fruitful like brahmos JV.
1- Russia denied to share any source code to india. IAF has asked for complete source code for future upgradation without russian help.
2- Russians were not making any 5th gen plane at all. The were focusing on a highly maneuverable aircraft with compromised stealth.
3- Indians were thinking that it will be highly fruitful like brahmos JV.
1 is plain wrong. Under FGFA, India and Russia were supposed to rewrite the software from scratch and 100% ToT was expected. The Week said the Russians wouldn't offer the source code for the mission computer, but even that's supposed to be Indian, like on the MKI today. The jet was going to be much more Indian than even the MKI.
2 is misleading. The Su-57 does not compromise stealth. It's not as good as the F-22 and F-35, but it still wouldn't give the F-22 or the F-35 a tactical edge using stealth. It's more accurate to say the Russians have learned from the American system of using too much stealth while sacrificing other capabilities, like EW, something even they are correcting through NGAD. It's ridiculous to believe HAL and IAF involved in the design process from 2010 to 2013 didn't know what they were doing before freezing the design. It's obvious that whatever was achieved was deemed suitable for our needs.
3 is subjective. At least 214 jets were planned.
What the Russians actually failed to provide was the technical documentation of the Su-57. The IAF was only involved in the FGFA, which is a Su-57 inspired aircraft, not the Su-57 itself, which was Russia-specific. And FGFA was supposed to be the export version, although the IAF pulled the plug on that plan later on.
They also did not provide an opportunity for flight tests. But the Su-57 then was a Russia-specific version and still in development.
Russia also tried to squeeze out more money for making India-specific avionics without considering contributing to the program, but still retaining 50% ownership while jacking up prices. There was a report which said the Russians wanted India to contribute $2B for the development of a new India-specific radar.
Another major risk factor was Russian assurances of ToT, which were not forthcoming. They could very easily take our money and supply even less ToT than what the MKI program saw. And they could also backtrack from ToT, like they did with the Brahmos engine, which was supposed to be manufactured in India. This made the program way too risky, especially with HAL only considering to pick up just 15% of the actual workshare, not even the negotiated-for 25%, which was already quite low compared to the expected 50%.
Then of course, the endless delays. Induction was delayed from 2016 to 2019 to 2020 to 2023 to beyond. Made worse when the Russians said they actually needed 8 years to develop FGFA; 5 years to get the jet ready and 3 years for MKIzation, contrary to the IAF's expected 6 years roadmap to IOC. The constant delays eroded trust, especially with the definitive engine being late by many years.
These are some of the factors that contributed to downgrading the JV into a license production of 6 squadrons or outright purchase of 3 squadrons "after" the jet was ready.
Then of course there's the US angle. It's unclear how much pressure the US applied to get us to stop our investment, but it should have played a very big part. Although it can be said that the GoI itself considered the FGFA terms unacceptable in the first place, making the American task easier.
How India finalised the design for its indigenous stealth fighter jet
Scientists behind the design explains how the Tejas experience helped
I think in the light of the above information & given the current status of Russia as a pariah nation in international diplomacy , it'd take more than a miracle for us to be interested in the FGFA project again.
For that to happen the Mk-2 version ought to be nothing short of revolutionary especially its design & the new jet engine being trialed.
Otherwise , we're going head on with the J-20 using the Rafales. In many ways I think the IAF has bitten the bullet & already made that decision . It's only a question of augmentation of numbers.
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Lol. You hit your head? F-35's EW capability is superior to the french plane's EW and any Russian fighter including Pak-Fart. F-35's EW is more capable in some areas than F-18G.
-‘The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost ‘Niki’ Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35’s stealth would keep us out of harm’s way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximize the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target.
To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the ‘Blue Air’ F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.
‘In the debrief ‘Niki’ told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force.’
View topic - [Dutch F-35A Pilots] Out of the SHADOWS May 2018 PDF • F-16.net
Military aviation forum since 2003, with high quality discussion focusing on the F-16, F-35 and F-22 jet fighters and the C-130.
www.f-16.net
F-22's EW capability is also very capable.
AN/ALR-94 F-22 Electronic Warfare System
The AN/ALR-94 protects the F-22 with advanced electronic warfare technology.
Just like the APG-81 the APG-77(v) can be used for offensive EW.
Lol. You hit your head? F-35's EW capability is superior to the french plane's EW and any Russian fighter including Pak-Fart. F-35's EW is more capable in some areas than F-18G.
-‘The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost ‘Niki’ Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35’s stealth would keep us out of harm’s way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximize the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target.
To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the ‘Blue Air’ F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.
‘In the debrief ‘Niki’ told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force.’
View topic - [Dutch F-35A Pilots] Out of the SHADOWS May 2018 PDF • F-16.net
Military aviation forum since 2003, with high quality discussion focusing on the F-16, F-35 and F-22 jet fighters and the C-130.www.f-16.net
F-22's EW capability is also very capable.
AN/ALR-94 F-22 Electronic Warfare System
The AN/ALR-94 protects the F-22 with advanced electronic warfare technology.www.baesystems.com
Just like the APG-81 the APG-77(v) can be used for offensive EW.
You've obviously misunderstood. Anyway--
Sadly, using the F-35's EW on an F-16 would pretty much mean attacking the F-16's X band radar. Although not currently operational, it can be simulated during exercises. But what it means is the F-35 can only attack in the high band, possibly in C and X band, not other low and mid bands.
The clues are in the words. In case they ever say the F-35 can jam comm systems, like datalinks, then we can talk about it. As of this moment, there's no use in bringing it up..
The F-22 has zero EA capability. The upgrade should give it a radar capable of EA, but that's about it.
Hence the need to increase EW capabilities on NGAD.
I feel like, let's see them develop something without our money for the first time.
Anyways, Algeria was one party really interested in the Su57E , let's see how that goes forward.
I feel like, let's see them develop something without our money for the first time.
They are richer than us for such things. The R&D money itself wasn't the problem, most of it was necessary to develop our own version, and it included the cost of setting up production facilities in India. What they needed was our massive market. FGFA was initially a 166+48 jet deal, and I believe it was Jha who said the numbers could reach 350. In fact the license production of a mere MKIzed version works out better for them.
Russian defence exports will take a big hit over the next few years due to the war. They will be able to tap markets again only after China and some other neutral countries become rich enough to butt heads with the West. So I believe countries like Algeria and Vietnam will wait. The Su-57 is still WIP anyway.
Not rich enough. They have a functional Navy because we paid for revamp and modernisation of two shipyards too. Development of Su30. Frigates. Mig29K. T90 development continues because we bought it.
Anyways modern electronics will surely be a problem for them. Will be interesting to see their military expansion from here on.
It didn't. AMCA was never in competition with it and happened in parallel.
A concept was selected in 2014, configuration was finalised in 2015, PDP completed in 2017 post which FGFA was cancelled in 2018. Even without FGFA, those dates would have remained unchanged. The most crucial part of AMCA happened from 2018 onwards because of IAF's renewed confidence in ADA's ability to deliver both LCA Mk2 and AMCA within reasonable timeframes.
Before the IAF signed up for FGFA in 2007, AMCA was actually MCA, and it was only 15T compared to today's 25T. So it played a complementary role to the FGFA. Then in 2010, before beginning work on FGFA, the IAF decided to convert MCA into AMCA. So one can say that the FGFA helped tremendously in shaping AMCA.
If we had the money and the Russians did not try to trick us, we would have seen the FGFA deal signed as well.
They had some initial help with capital from both China and India in the 90s and early 2000s, but what followed next was all their own. They are currently building 25 nuclear submarines, with more planned, and about 15 new ships that have more firepower than the P-15B.
Let's not forget Russia is an oil-rich nation with a massive trade surplus.
They won't face much difficulties, outside of initial supply disruptions. They initiated a self-sufficiency program in 2014.
From 2016:
Russia has already substituted more than a half of the components for military electronic devices that it used to import, Ruselectronics CEO Igor Kozlov told journalists on Thursday. The Ruselectronics company designs and produces electronic materials and equipment, it is a part of the Rostec Corporation.
"Roughly speaking, as far as the electronic components are concerned, last year the level of import substitution covered about 35% of the total production, but now it has exceeded 50%," Kozlov said.
In any case, a lot of the electronics they import is COTS.
You can see the effect on the electronics industry.
Although the graph is about the entire economy, you can expect the Russians to find ways to remove depedence on critical technologies over time.
Why they would have worried about their AESA when our own AESA was making tremendous growth ?
We are going to use Israeli AESA for almost half of our MK1A fleet. That's atleast 2025-26.
So a optimistic one will say basic uttam still needs 4 years to get to production standards.
We are making growth but not tremendous.
Mk1A will have only one squadron with Israeli AESA. The Mk1 version of the radar is production ready today, it's just that Mk1A's second squadron delivery is in 2025-26.
PS: The Su-57's AESA radar is pretty good. Where they are delayed is in creating an AESA radar for the Flankers, particularly because the RuAF themselves don't want it yet. They are fine with Irbis-E. Gotta see where the Mig-35's new AESA stands.
All 6 airframes in Russia as of 2021 lacked AESA. Although they claimed that they could provide a solution for export coustomers.