Much of the technology that went into making the F-22 is still classified to this date.
It's electronics package maybe a bit out of date, but that doesn't make it any less lethal, it still is the best air superiority fighter out there.
PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
It's electronics package maybe a bit out of date, but that doesn't make it any less lethal, it still is the best air superiority fighter out there.
F-22 isn't a bad jet but it is simply outgunned against Su-57 because the latter was specifically designed to kill the former in a straight duel.
Just look how distributed and extensive 360° sensor coverage Su-57 has got with 4 X-Band radars(1 nose-mounted, 2 cheek-mounted and 1 tail mounted):
The red that you see in the above image is the AESA radars all working as EA assets/jammers.
Then you have 8 L-Band AESA radars(in yellow colour) to detect stealth fighters and the cue the X-Band radar to track it:
Then you have 360° UV + IR MAWS coverage with DIRCM turrets. Then there is LWIR based OLS-50, nose mounted IRST. And all of the above work in sync with each other to create imsanely good situational awareness. Fact is, there is not a single 5th gen fighter with this level of sensor distribution and sensor-fusion and morons compare this super jet with something like Rafale, lol.
PS: Su-57 also has smart-skin radar transceivers to do both ESM & ECM. This jet doesn get credit for how advance it really is.
Last edited:
No point in comparing an aircraft that's just entering service with one that has its phase out being planned.
The only way it works is if the F-22 gets its "Super" upgrade to keep it viable into the 2060s, like MKI.
Trump talked about it last year alongside developing a probably twin-engine AMCA class jet he called F-55.
The only way it works is if the F-22 gets its "Super" upgrade to keep it viable into the 2060s, like MKI.
Trump talked about it last year alongside developing a probably twin-engine AMCA class jet he called F-55.
The apg-77v2 is pretty much the best radar right now. Maybe the Chinese radar on the j-20 could match it but American radars are far more ahead in terms of resolution and ew.
Official Northrop Grumman(NG) youtube channel claims, F35's apg 81 provides *unmatched* capability for A2A, A2G, EW operations.
Which means by large they are also claiming its better Apg 77 of f22( also built by NG &raytheon), which is a much more older radar.
The best American radars right now are APG-85 for the F-35 and the upcoming APG-82vX for the F-15EX. And F-47 of course.
APG-77 is still at v1 even today.
If they decide to pursue a proper MLU, instead of the incremental one today, then we are likely to see a GaN upgade.
the SCAF as a common aircraft, is dying; as a common framework for networked warfare, the SCAF may survive.
And this fits very well with the Rafale F5. The F5 is no longer waiting for a hypothetical European NGF to enter connected warfare; it is already building the French layer: sovereign network, combat drone, long-range effectors, cooperative sensors, distributed fusion. The residual SCAF could then be used to enable this French layer to communicate with the German, Spanish, British, Italian, or NATO layers.
In fact, this would be a more mature form of European cooperation: fewer grand promises about “the aircraft of tomorrow,” more concrete work on interfaces, standards, cybersecurity, links, compatible sovereignties, and operational interoperability.
It’s less spectacular than a model of the NGF at Le Bourget, but militarily much more useful.
@randomradio is wrong here. IAF participating in SCAF/GCAP as observer has nothing to do with both Su-57 or AMCA, read our 5th gen programmes. Just like IAF acquiring 140 Su-57 has no effect on 114 Rafale MRFA deal. All are separate requirements which fulfill a particular gap in IAF's combat prowess.
PS: If you don't share ICD access with us, then it is unlikely we will order full 114 batch, rather 2 or 3 more squadrons of Rafale and that's about it. If you guys allow ICD access to us, then the acutal and final order of Rafale could be well above 200 units in IAF itself.
For now, it looks like the IAF will be going for Rafale F5 and a 6th gen airframe to follow. We don't know if this will change over the next few years, but we can easily tell now that the IAF is planning to get their 6th gen inducted in the 2040s.
Look at the timelines. Rafale F4 between 2030 and 2034, F5 from 2034 to 2038, AMCA from 2036/38 to 2045. SCAF from 2045 onwards to replace the MKIs. ADA's next gen after 2055. So there's a comfortable 10-15 years between Rafale F5 maturity and 6th gen maturity.
For India, the difference between SCAF and GCAP is just a few years. If SCAF doesn't happen, then we will have to formally enter GCAP.
It makes sense for the French to pursue Rafale for the next decade and match ADA's timelines for replacement.
Yes, SCAF/GCAP has nothing to do with SU-57 and AMCA. But AMCA has entirely replaced the Su-57 requirement. So it's LCA, Rafale, Su-57, SCAF/GCAP or LCA, Rafale, AMCA, SCAF/GCAP. At best there's space for Su-60, but I doubt it will be pursued due to its overlap with SCAF/GCAP.
Don't bother with negative news around ICD. It's from the anti-French lobby. They just want to create controversies around non-issues.
Here's the ICD for GPS.
This is public because this is how OEMs transfer information to external companies so the companies can design subsystems that can interact with the core systems. ICD doesn't give access to core systems. Set up an aerospace company and you can apply for the Rafale's ICD too.
I'm wondering what the problem is with SCAF right now though. Germany's proposed a two-airframe solution. Spain appears to be more interested in the French version of SCAF.
If India selects SCAF, that's another 200 jets. India-France have better prospects for exports too.
Overall the two-airframe solution is the best deal for Dassault. Spain lacks the capability to develop NGF on its own and even if India doesn't enter the NGF portion, it offers scale. This leaves NGF entirely to Dassault. The rest of the pillars will be shared between Germany, Spain, and France as well.
Then India and France work on an Indianised or semi-Indianised variant.
The 2-seat Su-57D prototype unveiled few days ago is specifically designed for our requirements and on our request. Remember the Russians openly telling IAF that 2-seat version is not required which was the final blow which made the FGFA program collapse.Yes, SCAF/GCAP has nothing to do with SU-57 and AMCA. But AMCA has entirely replaced the Su-57 requirement. So it's LCA, Rafale, Su-57, SCAF/GCAP or LCA, Rafale, AMCA, SCAF/GCAP. At best there's space for Su-60, but I doubt it will be pursued due to its overlap with SCAF/GCAP.
Don't bother with negative news around ICD. It's from the anti-French lobby. They just want to create controversies around non-issues.
Here's the ICD for GPS.
This is public because this is how OEMs transfer information to external companies so the companies can design subsystems that can interact with the core systems. ICD doesn't give access to core systems. Set up an aerospace company and you can apply for the Rafale's ICD too.
IAF already has/will have a single-seat stealth fighter in AMCA, so Su-57 in MKI form was always supposed to be the twin-seat Su-60 variant. There is nothing surprising about it.
About ICD? I hope so 'cause we need those Rafales to defeat PLAAF.
We didn't ask for this variant. They are marketing as such because the single-seat did not meet our requirements. There's no guarantee they used what was designed for FGFA due to all the agreements we had signed. Not to mention flight testing it would be a bit more complex and time consuming.
IAF agreed though. That's why the split between 154 single-seats and 48 twin-seats. Then the IAF reduced that to 127 or 63 for single-seats depending on whether they will go for license production or direct import while leaving the door open for the two-seater. Then they eventually canceled the entire thing 'cause AMCA's paper specs beat Su-57 in every category possible, stealth, avionics, performance, and some foundational technologies.
IAF's Ghatak goal is for autonomous operations compared to Neuron and S-70's semi-autonomous goals. This eliminated the twin-seat requirement for AMCA, LCA Mk2, and TEDBF.
It will also reflect the reality of the time, ie, late 2030s for full mission capability. Rafale and Su-57 will be operational with drones well before that, around 2030 for the S-70 and 2033 for the Neuron derivative. So the program goal here is less advanced.
With IAF choosing Rafale, it's eliminated the need for Su-57 in this area. About 3 dozen Neurons can more than bridge the drone gap for SEAD/DEAD before Ghataks arrive. That's why Su-57D has to be significantly superior to AMCA if it needs to be chosen, essentially 6th gen class. Similarly the drone offered needs to be a step above what we will have too.
Basically, it should not be a duplicate of AMCA and Neuron, that's why the single-seat version won't go anywhere in India.
SCAF/GCAP are not duplicates of AMCA, so 6th gen has become more important. That's why Su-57D is now competing with these 2, while the single-seat requirement supposed to be fulfilled by Su-57 will now belong to AMCA.
There's a chance that we could buy 40-60 S-70s for integration with MKI MLU though. I won't be surprised if that's the goal for roping in Russia for the MKI MLU.
ICD isn't an issue.
Su-57 is now a done deal. Only matter of time when the full details are revealed to the world. Since you don't believe it so let's leave it here.
The problem is that Macron is the only one jumping around like a goat, shouting “Europe, Europe, Europe!” But in a year he'll be gone. Dassault, on the other hand, works quietly; he has plenty on his plate anyway, so none of this is really a big deal.
If it's not Macron's but party position then there will be a limit to Dassault's ability to handle pressure after elections.
IMHO, Le Pen won't win the appeal, her career is over. The next winner will just be another socialist allied to the "cause" from LREM and this circus will repeat.
Although the article focuses on Ghatak, the CDS is talking about loyal wingman drones.
The only indigenous option for a medium-sized aircraft today is Warrior. Svayatt M1 and Abhimanyu are much smaller and carry no weapons. It's unclear yet if IAF is going for Warrior class drones, not just the Svayatt/Abhimanyu class. The former is slow and expensive. The latter is highly maneuverable and cheap/expendable. The CDS wishes for a 2030 IOC.
American options are far more capable than Warrior. Ghost Bat, Dark Merlin, Valkyrie, and Fury are pretty much the same weight but can quite literally accompany fighters at 40000-50000 feet and mach 0.85 and carry plenty of fuel. The USAF's versions can carry 2 AMRAAMs and have fighter-class agility. Valkyrie can be launched from shipping containers and trucks. Warrior needs more fuel and a more powerful engine at the very least.
No clue how well Warrior-class drones will do alongside non-stealth jets though. All others will have stealth jets accompanying these drones. And the Russians seem to have chosen an advanced VLO drone like France.
I too personally believes that india should only go for vlo flying wing design.
1) smaller, only for isr roles, needed in over 200 across all services
2) ghatak class with atleast 4-6 bvr missile to accompany amca And also sead/dead role
3) twin engine(indo french engine with 70-80kn dry thrust) bigger ghatak for long range and heavy payload , very useful for indian navy and also imp to deep penetrate china
Last edited:
Sergey Bogdon has confirmed that dual-seater Su-57D has similar flight characteristics, handling and controllability just like the single-seat Su-57S:
@13:35 mark
@13:35 mark
It's probably what we are aiming for, but we can't be sure yet.