That has nothing to do with combat losses in last few years. Most of these loses have been due to sam ambushes set up by ukrainians. It is very easy to hide sam units in big frontline cities like Kherson, zapo, Poltava, odessa, kharkov etc. Even then Russians have hunted down patriot units successfully several times.
PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
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That has nothing to do with combat losses in last few years. Most of these loses have been due to sam ambushes set up by ukrainians. It is very easy to hide sam units in big frontline cities like Kherson, zapo, Poltava, odessa, kharkov etc. Even then Russians have hunted down patriot units successfully several times.
Barcid has a valid point though. We should have "seen" at least one SAM kill by now.
There's over 40 jets operational today. You wouldn't need more than 4 jets to take out 1 SAM and propagandize that victory. At least the first regiment with 117 was IOC standard, but the second regiment onwards are supposed to be the real deal. And it's already been 3 years since serial production deliveries began.
All combat reports to date have been about using Kh-69, which is insufficient against mobile SAMs.
I never spoke about Russian combat losses.
Anyway, the Russians have managed to kill some SAMs, but mostly due to pure dumb luck. They haven't been able to do it consistently.
The Ukr Patriot inventories are not that good either.
Ukraine Received Only About 600 Patriot Interceptor Missiles During War
Ukraine relies heavily on US-made Patriot air defense systems to counter Russia’s ballistic missile attacks on its infrastructure and other civilian targets.
www.kyivpost.com
Russian SEAD/DEAD performance in the first phase.
Getting Serious About SEAD: European Air Forces Must Learn from the Failure of the Russian Air Force over Ukraine
The failure of the Russian air force to gain and exploit air superiority over Ukraine has been a surprise for most air power professionals. However, far from inspiring complacency, Russian failure should make Western air forces reflect honestly on how they would fare under similar circumstances.
www.rusi.org
And nothing much has changed since then. I was looking forward to the Su-57 breaking this deadlock with its AESA radar, but nothing's happened yet.
Only the US, Israel, and India have demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.
Oh, so this is legendary footage from May 2023 of a Kyiv
Patriot physically intercepting a Su-57 missile with its own chassis at land
“（在地面）拦截成功！”
Interception successful!(used launcher On the ground)
the Patriot system secured air superiority over Kyiv by putting on a dazzling fireworks show
That night evertihing is possibility------Special is in the dream village
“梦里啥都有”
I never spoke about Russian combat losses.
Anyway, the Russians have managed to kill some SAMs, but mostly due to pure dumb luck. They haven't been able to do it consistently.
The Ukr Patriot inventories are not that good either.
Ukraine Received Only About 600 Patriot Interceptor Missiles During War
Ukraine relies heavily on US-made Patriot air defense systems to counter Russia’s ballistic missile attacks on its infrastructure and other civilian targets.
Russian SEAD/DEAD performance in the first phase.
Getting Serious About SEAD: European Air Forces Must Learn from the Failure of the Russian Air Force over Ukraine
The failure of the Russian air force to gain and exploit air superiority over Ukraine has been a surprise for most air power professionals. However, far from inspiring complacency, Russian failure should make Western air forces reflect honestly on how they would fare under similar circumstances.
And nothing much has changed since then. I was looking forward to the Su-57 breaking this deadlock with its AESA radar, but nothing's happened yet.
Only the US, Israel, and India have demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.
Lol, claiming russian striking patriots as dumb luck and then quoting RUSI.
Might as well start posting Crappy Army and Preston Stewart as next sources.The biggest problem for VKS has been the inability to generate sufficient combat sorties vis a vis targets that need to be destroyed. A lot of that issue stems from their decision in the 1990s to do away with their single engined strike fighters. Geran-2 can elevate some of the issues but they are not enough.
The appeal of the "Heavenly Kingdom on Earth" is indeed still immense.I never spoke about Russian combat losses.
Anyway, the Russians have managed to kill some SAMs, but mostly due to pure dumb luck. They haven't been able to do it consistently.
The Ukr Patriot inventories are not that good either.
Ukraine Received Only About 600 Patriot Interceptor Missiles During War
Ukraine relies heavily on US-made Patriot air defense systems to counter Russia’s ballistic missile attacks on its infrastructure and other civilian targets.
Russian SEAD/DEAD performance in the first phase.
Getting Serious About SEAD: European Air Forces Must Learn from the Failure of the Russian Air Force over Ukraine
The failure of the Russian air force to gain and exploit air superiority over Ukraine has been a surprise for most air power professionals. However, far from inspiring complacency, Russian failure should make Western air forces reflect honestly on how they would fare under similar circumstances.
And nothing much has changed since then. I was looking forward to the Su-57 breaking this deadlock with its AESA radar, but nothing's happened yet.
Only the US, Israel, and India have demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.
A summary of the performance of the Divine Air Force in past campaigns:
I. Regarding the influence of the opponent's aircraft performance on the outcome:
When the opponent's aircraft were too powerful, the Divine Air Force failed to establish air superiority, leading to defeat – case: the Korean War.
When the opponent's aircraft were too feeble, the Divine Air Force did gain air superiority, but was then plagued by the inability to locate those despicable rural folk to strike, resulting in failure – cases: Afghanistan, Gaza, and Iran.
II. Regarding the role of luck:
When the opponent was extraordinarily lucky, the Divine's ultimate weapons were miraculously shot down – cases: the F-117 over Serbia, the F-35 over Iran, and the E‑3 over the Middle East airbase.
When the opponent was exceptionally unlucky, the Divine forces advanced so smoothly that they became recklessly overconfident, which subsequently led to defeat – case: the B‑52 Turkey Shoot over Vietnam in December 1972.
III. Regarding aircraft carriers:
When an aircraft carrier was nearby, it constrained the Divine's tactical plans; the need to protect the carrier reduced the intensity of airstrikes, causing failure – case: Iran.
When no carrier was nearby, the Divine was deprived of its supernatural prowess, leading to failure – case: Afghanistan.
IV. Regarding the morality of war:
In coordination with the Soviet offensive, the Divine used incendiary bombs to indiscriminately burn German cities, killing 100,000 Nazi, but neglected low‑altitude escort, leading to strategic failure – case: the Battle of the Bulge.
Out of sheer kindness, the Divine could not bear to inflict "collateral damage" on innocent civilians, thus hesitating and failing to unleash its true potential, allowing the despicable villagers to escape – case: Gaza.
Israel, bombing a place the size of Mariupol for two years, has 'demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.' (If those defenses consist of rusty AKs and prayer rugs, sure.)
The US, retreating in disgrace from Iran, has 'demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.' (Because losing is the new winning.)
And India? Well, it probably demonstrated the same by summoning the US representative to complain about a merchant‑ship attack — since diplomacy is clearly the cutting edge of SEAD/DEAD.
and
1. F110-GE-129, 22,000 lbs thrust at 0 speed and 0 altitude equals how many tons of force?
2. F100-PW-200, 24,000 lbs thrust at 0 altitude corresponds to what Mach number?
3. F100-PW-200, 19,500 lbs thrust at 0 speed and 0 altitude equals how many tons of force?
4. Which has a more efficient air intake: the F-15 or the F-16?
Lol, claiming russian striking patriots as dumb luck and then quoting RUSI.
Their claims checks out with what we have observed since then. That's why I posted an official study from Naval War College as well.
These are the same things the IAF identified as weaknesses and fixed with Israeli tech on MKI and the IN did the same on older ships using Barak 1 pointing out the reasons back then that sank Russian warships during the war. I had posted the same reasons a few years ago on the Ukraine thread.
Sorties are not the problem. It's a training and technology problem. Give them single engine jets with the same tech, the result will be the same. Even with better training, the results will be the same. The training situation has been solved due to combat experience, but they have done absolutely nothing about tech.
The Russians destroyed Ukr Patriot SAMs when their drones came across them accidentally. There was no real planning involved. Whenever Ukr SAMs came too close to the Russian border, drones would pick them up and the Russians used precision munitions on those sites on priority. That's not SEAD/DEAD, that's getting lucky. Ukr has managed the same level of destruction in that manner.
Otoh, everything else that requires dumb bombs and saturation effects are being done very well. Basically, they are doing well with whatever tech they have.
As I had explained back then, the Russians skipped the entire phase between the late 2000s and late 2010s when the West and India introduced recce tech and munitions capable of hitting mobile targets while on the move. This is when MKIs got Israeli pods and Jaguars got a Raytheon Munitions Control Unit along with other Israeli tech via DARIN III. Of course, M2000 upgrade brought that along too. DRDO's added indigenous systems since then. The Russians have none of that.
Su-57 is supposed to come with it, so let's see.
Those jets won't even see the Rafale.
The French have demonstrated BVR superiority of the Rafale over MKI in Garuda exercises. The IAF claims the Rafale is 200% superior to the MKI in BVR combat. That's reason enough.
Read the first two pages of this thread.
Ah, the classic 'coping through training exercises' narrative.
Fascinating. Because back in China, the J-10B and J-11B have also 'defeated' the Su-35S and J-16 more than once during the internal 'Golden Helmet' competitions. Your script is identical to theirs: always rambling about 'long-range detection,' 'avionics superiority,' 'the underdog triumphing against a giant,' or 'uncovering the true history.'
Ha! No wonder people say India and China share that classic Eastern mentality. For a second there, I genuinely thought I forgot to turn on my browser's translation tool and wandered right back into a domestic Chinese forum. And hey, by your flawless logic, an A-10 Warthog once shot down an F-22A with its rotary cannon in a US military exercise—so I guess the Air Force should retire the Raptor and replace it with a fleet of subsonic flying tanks, right
According to news reports, the J-10C has won the championship in the 'Golden Helmet' mock combat exercises for three consecutive years, defeating both the J-16 and the Su-35S.
According to CCTV (China Central Television)—an outlet so infamous on the Chinese internet that it is widely ridiculed as 'CCAV,' with the 'A' mockingly standing for 'Audio-Video' or 'Adult/Pornographic' television
The sheer artistry with which China and India run damage control for their officials' vanity garbage projects is truly top-tier. Even a heavy-hitter like the J-16 gets dismissed as 'domestically produced' but with 'impure bloodlines'—conveniently turned into a stepping stone just to make their other domestic junk look good. Honestly, watching you jump through these endless mental hoops just to dynamic-cope with your Western worship is the best comedy on the internet right now
But hey, talk is cheap when your actions tell the real story: you keep aggressively stocking up on Su-35S and J-16, all while dropping that trash J-10 from production.
Seriously, next time, put some actual effort into your propaganda. When you try to sell that ridiculous fairy tale of the Rafale single-handedly wiping out the Su-30MKI, at least hire the Indian national broadcaster to package the lie for you. You know, like your Chinese peers do? Right now, your amateur bluffing is just embarrassing.
Don't get the point of using one-off incidents to explain things away.
Most of the American defeats were political rather than military. Or not enough boost on the ground. Or in some cases, it was deliberate, to create conditions of perpetual warfare, like in Syria after the Iraq War.
WW2 and Gaza conflict are different situations.
Israel, bombing a place the size of Mariupol for two years, has 'demonstrated robust SEAD/DEAD capabilities against relatively modern air defenses.' (If those defenses consist of rusty AKs and prayer rugs, sure.)
Iran. 2025.
No boots on the ground.
We will deal with America without fighting.
All installed thrusts.
What artistry, what damage control?
The French defeated IAF jets. The opposite of your silly Golden Helmet exercises.
Exercise Garuda - Wikipedia
In 2010, we learned what the M2000 and Rafale combination could do in France against the Flanker. And they repeated that in India in 2014. In the 2010 exercises, even M2000 defeated MKI.
Garuda exercises with France and AMCA's design led to the cancelation of FGFA and the IAF settled on the LCA, Rafale, and AMCA combo while preparing to replace MKIs with a new 6th gen JV from the 2040s with a medium class jet, 14 to 15 tons empty.
"The operational capabilities of the Sukhoi-30 in terms of capability and range are far superior than that of the MiG-29 while the range of the Rafale is 2.5 times that of the Su-30MKI in the same role," top IAF sources told ANI here.
"The Sukhoi-30, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 are not MMRCA... None of these meet the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements of the Indian Air Force specified for MMRCA in 2007 for its requirements of 126 combat jets," the sources said.
36th Rafale to have all India specific enhancements, arrives Jan 2022
Such is the fighting capability of French Rafale that its one squadron of 18 aircraft is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons (45 fighters) of Su-30 MKI in terms of turn-around and maintenance. | India News
www.hindustantimes.com
I can't find it, but an IAF Air Marshal said the Rafale has 200% superiority in air to air over MKI.
Ahh, right—India doesn't want to fight the Americans, so of course the Americans won't fight India.
As if Saddam wanted to attack the U.S.,or Gaddafi flew to Paris to drop bombs?
You can be a coward yourself, but you can't demand that the global hegemon bend to your will.
How adorable, the way a colonial relic talks.
Oh, and every war America fights—mostly lost, barely won—is just a unique exception, because it's Daddy America! Right!
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Save your breath, dude, I’ve already made my point.What artistry, what damage control?
The French defeated IAF jets. The opposite of your silly Golden Helmet exercises.
Exercise Garuda - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In 2010, we learned what the M2000 and Rafale combination could do in France against the Flanker. And they repeated that in India in 2014. In the 2010 exercises, even M2000 defeated MKI.
Garuda exercises with France and AMCA's design led to the cancelation of FGFA and the IAF settled on the LCA, Rafale, and AMCA combo while preparing to replace MKIs with a new 6th gen JV from the 2040s with a medium class jet, 14 to 15 tons empty.
"The operational capabilities of the Sukhoi-30 in terms of capability and range are far superior than that of the MiG-29 while the range of the Rafale is 2.5 times that of the Su-30MKI in the same role," top IAF sources told ANI here.
"The Sukhoi-30, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 are not MMRCA... None of these meet the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements of the Indian Air Force specified for MMRCA in 2007 for its requirements of 126 combat jets," the sources said.
Such is the fighting capability of French Rafale that its one squadron of 18 aircraft is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons (45 fighters) of Su-30 MKI in terms of turn-around and maintenance.36th Rafale to have all India specific enhancements, arrives Jan 2022
Such is the fighting capability of French Rafale that its one squadron of 18 aircraft is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons (45 fighters) of Su-30 MKI in terms of turn-around and maintenance. | India News
I can't find it, but an IAF Air Marshal said the Rafale has 200% superiority in air to air over MKI.
With your fierce, deep-seated love for the state, your utterly shameless audacity, and your legendary tolerance for pure garbage, you would easily land a premium, high-paying job as a loyal regime shill in China.
But then again, over the past few years, everybody knows that Chinese internet trolls are actually just inmates doing forced labor in prison anyway.
Today, in a Chinese chatroom, I summed up and satirized the highly complex, conflicted psyche of ordinary Chinese netizens regarding the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war and the situation in Iran.
I felt it only fitting and proper to share these insights with you—a perfect 'Chinese analogue.' Because quite frankly, so much of what you've regurgitated in this forum is the exact same rhetoric I’ve heard ad nauseam across the Chinese internet：
Here is what the Chinese swallowed hook, line, and sinker:
1，That global free trade was a gospel, right until Trump came along and kicked their teeth in.
2，That the almighty US Air Force and Navy could terrorize any primitive force by dropping two smart bombs, right until the recent debacles of Iran and Israel.
Look at you now. At the end of the day, you’ve crawled back to Mao’s old maxim: 'It’s either the East Wind crushing the West, or vice versa.' Your pathetic attempt to use the so-called 'global supply chain' to make the Americans codependent on you, hoping they’d abandon the idea of military conquest—that delusion is dead and buried. Now, you are shivering in absolute terror, deathly afraid that Daddy America is going to charge straight in and stick two blades deep into your gut.
Turns out, Khrushchev’s legacy rules supreme—missiles replace all your sophisticated bullshit.
Aircraft carriers, bombers... screw them all. They can go to hell. Missiles and FPV equivalents are substituting every single damn thing on the modern battlefield
You built a fantasy where your shiny 'high-tech' could substitute for raw national courage and blood sacrifice. But guess what? Modern war just proved you can't cheat the reaper.
You’re terrified now. Because you know your pampered society is scared to death of dying.
Within a mere 24～36 months, your entire built-up worldview has imploded.
That’s why you loathe the raw, bloody victories of Russia and Iran so much—it drives you absolutely mad
Congrats on the Russian victory. I wish such raw, bloody victories to our best friends, Pak and China too.
By all means, I wish you a literal pie in the sky and free money raining down on you every single day. And hey, maybe your sworn enemy—oh, my mistake, your beloved 'Daddy America'—will suddenly undergo a spiritual conversion, all because they are so deeply moved by your boundless virtue. Stay blessed in your fairy-tale world, you saint.
IN sank a US-flagged Venus Challenger and damaged Gulf Star in the 1971 war. The US didn't go to war with India over it.
You will be surprised how malleable America is forced to be towards India while India's offered nothing else in return.
They lost, but the overarching political objectives were different each time. The one they truly lost was Vietnam, but only 'cause they did not invade the North and there's a limit to how long one can keep fighting while on the defensive.
Winning and losing is for sports. The calculations for warfare are different.
And you are mistaking me for an American-supporter. I am only against you in this specific instance. My habit is to take a contrarian viewpoint.
I argue for the Russians and Americans against the French, I argue for the French or American against Russians, I argue for Russians against the Americans and French. In your case, I just happen to take America's side. I have also argued for the Chinese side many times against Indians with nationalist viewpoints.
Post 31. I'm aguing for Russian tech against Rafale.
Post 3555. Here I'm arguing for Mig-29 and MKI against Rafale.
Yes, we do. The Mig-29UPG carries an Indian EW suite called the D-29 which can do it. We built it using Israeli help.
Development of D-29 System (Internal EW system for MIG-29 Upgrade Aircraft) | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India
D-29 is an integrated EW system for Radar warning and jamming that encompasses RWR, ECM, ESM functions and utilizes state-of-the-art active phased arrays for selectively jamming the multiple threat radars. The D-29 system serves primarily as a self-protection jammer that will boost...
The MKI's new jamming capability has been developed entirely inhouse.
EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist
Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…
www.livefistdefence.com
Post 1080. I'm arguing for the Russian and French against the F-16.
Post 329. I'm arging for the J-20 and F-22 over the F-35 against an American nationalist.
Physics, not context. It's like comparing a pro baseball pitcher with an amateur high school pitcher. A bigger stronger professional will always beat a half-arsed kid.
The J-20 has higher speed, acceleration, altitude etc, which all provides a massive kinematic advantage in BVR. Which is why you need 2 F-22s to do the work of 8 F-35s. Can't kill something you can't catch.
Weren't you the same dope that said Russia was going to roll over Ukraine? You don't know anything...
There was a time when I held the same opinion as you, that MKI would very easily beat Rafale and that Rafale was being bought for the sake of new technologies that Russia does not have and to create an alternate foreign supplier. This was over 10 years ago. But that opinion is now laughable. Reality is different from fantasy, I used to believe in the same nonsense you do today.