People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions

[randomradio]

Not how it works. The (V)1 is the first upgrade. E.g. for the legacy F-15 unit, you can see that the (V)1 does not come out until the 1990s:

AN/APG-63 radar family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, there's APG-77, then an upgrade called APG-77(V)1. If there are significant changes after that, we would see a (V)2, but we don't.

The (V)1 was ordered in 2005 with Lot 5 and introduced in 2007. It's basically the main serial production version. There has been no significant upgrade since then. A new TRM was introduced sometime after 2015, but the USAF has decided to wait for better tech 'cause they were busy throwing money at the F-35. It's also why Gen Hostage was busy shouting about upgrading the F-22 to maintain relevance.

Recall that story about the APG-77 planned to be upgraded to 400Km detection against 1m2 using narrow beams? Yeah, that upgrade didn't happen. It was too expensive relative to the capability boost. Or we would see the (V)2 moniker right about now.

I'm guessing the USAF prefers a GaN upgrade instead. The F-22 and F-35 may even share the APG-85 derived tech. Perhaps the APG-85 itself was derived from an unknown GaN radar for the F-22.

 

[BMD]

The APG-77 is what it started with, APG-77(V)1 is what it has now. As per the F-15, the APG-63 was what it entered service with. The (V)1 has the upgraded modules. The (V)2 will likely be GaN.

 

[Rajput Lion]

APG-85 and F-22 MLU radar is definitely going to be GaN based. Even current F-22's radar has staggering performance. With GaN modules powering a 2200 TRM beast, its range gain could be simply unprecedented.

 

[Hydra]

The radar is old tech, 'cause its challengers are more advanced with digital antennas and perhaps even GaN.

The jets you named are too old for comparison. They are getting upgrades or will be phased out.

It still gonna outperform LCA Mk1a with uttam when comes to detection range. By the way what will be the Mk1a ELTA Radar detection range,will it have better detection range than jf17A.

 

[Hydra]

Astra Mk3 is being designed for 300Km range. So you take a guess.

I don't think it will outperform US counterpart. But, if it gives 200+ detection,it will be more than sufficient for Pak I guess.

 

[randomradio]

The APG-77 is what it started with, APG-77(V)1 is what it has now. As per the F-15, the APG-63 was what it entered service with. The (V)1 has the upgraded modules. The (V)2 will likely be GaN.

Yes, the (V)2 will likely be GaN, 'cause the USAF didn't go for the intermediate upgrade after 2015.

Report from 2007:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA473439.pdf

...which produces the AN/APG-77(V)1 radar for the F-22A.

From what I've understood, the current radar does 400Km against 3m2 using narrow beams (so 300Km vs 1m2), whereas the 2015 upgrade was advertised for 400Km against 1m2 using the same way. So it's not such a brilliant upgrade if the associated costs were too high, especially in an environment where comparable adversary capabilities were still limited or non-existent.

Back then, there was news that the F-22 would get a GaN radar in 2025. Now it appears official funding will begin in 2024 for a result by 2030.

With the world going to sh!t, it appears we will see the F-22 serving until 2060.

 

[randomradio]

It still gonna outperform LCA Mk1a with uttam when comes to detection range. By the way what will be the Mk1a ELTA Radar detection range,will it have better detection range than jf17A.

The problem with the KLJ-7A PAF has chosen is it's air-cooled. So it's in the same category as the APG-83. Uttam Mk1 liquid cooling can sustain higher temperatures for much longer than the other 2 radars because of that. So some modes will see greater performance, especially in HPRF mode.

Basically, the information about range I've posted isn't the whole picture. AESA has a lot of features that can improve range and resolution when necessary and cooling plays a major part.

Anyway, if reports about Uttam Mk2 being part of Mk1A is true, then the JF-17 B3 will be behind by a significant margin.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think it will outperform US counterpart. But, if it gives 200+ detection,it will be more than sufficient for Pak I guess.

To use the Astra Mk3 to its full range, the MKI's radar has to be more capable than the APG-77. You are around where Uttam Mk2 will be.

 

[Saaho]

Uttam Mk1 = 126Km design goal
APG-80 = 132Km
KLJ-7A V2 (Type 1478) = 134Km

I doubt these are correct or even having right order.

APG-80 for F-16 detects and tracks a fighter sized (1 sq m) target at 110 KM. I highly doubt KLJ-7A V2 can outperform that.

I do not know what will be the packing order of Uttam and KLJ-7A V2 but I highly doubt KLJ-7A V2 will out perform F-16 AESA radars.

 

[Saaho]

It still gonna outperform LCA Mk1a with uttam when comes to detection range. By the way what will be the Mk1a ELTA Radar detection range,will it have better detection range than jf17A.

When you are comparing JF-17 Blk3, remember, JF-17s have air cooled radar. All those numbers you see for Type-1478 radar are for liquid cooled variants. So, JF-17 Blk 3 performance will not be same. It will be less. Also those numbers are not really believable.

 

[randomradio]

I doubt these are correct or even having right order.

APG-80 for F-16 detects and tracks a fighter sized (1 sq m) target at 110 KM. I highly doubt KLJ-7A V2 can outperform that.

I do not know what will be the packing order of Uttam and KLJ-7A V2 but I highly doubt KLJ-7A V2 will out perform F-16 AESA radars.

APG-80 does 132Km against 1m2. Picdel also mentions that range.

I placed KLJ-7A in a better position because it's 20 years newer, alongside a minor difference in calculation that favoured it. There are 2 versions of the radar. As per Chinese advertisement, one does 170Km and the second does 200Km against 5m2 target. So against 1m2, that's 114Km and 134Km. It's derived from calculation based on advertised figures, not actual capability. So if instead of 200Km, the actual range is actually 190Km, then it would be 127Km, much lower. Both APG-80 and 83 are 600mm, whereas KLJ-7A is 650mm. So that plays a part too.

The APG-83 as well was calculated from an advertised figure of 370Km against 100m2. So that comes down to 117Km against 1m2.

There are a lot of other factors that can affect these calculations, we don't know what are the probabilities, what PRF settings these figures were derived from etc.

Anyway the calculations are about setting benchmarks for each class. So MS radars are around 80Km. Small AESAs are around 100-160Km. Large AESAs exceed 200Km and so on. Radar and BVR missile performance also determines which altitude an aircraft can operate at to make use of such ranges. So high end aircraft can typically operate at very high altitudes because of radar performance, whereas smaller aircraft will have to use the safety of air resistance at lower altitudes to lower the effectiveness of BVR.

In terms of real world performance, as per a previous post above, the liquid-cooled APG-80 will naturally perform better in some modes versus the air-cooled KLJ-7A.

 

[randomradio]

When you are comparing JF-17 Blk3, remember, JF-17s have air cooled radar. All those numbers you see for Type-1478 radar are for liquid cooled variants. So, JF-17 Blk 3 performance will not be same. It will be less. Also those numbers are not really believable.

Yeah, you are right. The numbers I have quoted are likely for liquid-cooled, whereas JF-17's radar may be closer to what the APG-83 delivers.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yes, the (V)2 will likely be GaN, 'cause the USAF didn't go for the intermediate upgrade after 2015.

Report from 2007:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA473439.pdf

...which produces the AN/APG-77(V)1 radar for the F-22A.

From what I've understood, the current radar does 400Km against 3m2 using narrow beams (so 300Km vs 1m2), whereas the 2015 upgrade was advertised for 400Km against 1m2 using the same way. So it's not such a brilliant upgrade if the associated costs were too high, especially in an environment where comparable adversary capabilities were still limited or non-existent.

Back then, there was news that the F-22 would get a GaN radar in 2025. Now it appears official funding will begin in 2024 for a result by 2030.

With the world going to sh!t, it appears we will see the F-22 serving until 2060.

400 km against a 1m2 target is useless, but it can be useful against a stealthy opponent.

 

[randomradio]

400 km against a 1m2 target is useless, but it can be useful against a stealthy opponent.

Exactly, there was no opponent for it. A GaN radar will become available around the same time as the new J-20 and Su-57M. Anyway it's by using 2x2 deg narrow beam.

APG-85 is expected on the F-35 in 2026, with the last few jets of Lot 17. Next year will be a defining moment for both the F-22 and F-35. If they reengine the F-35, they may decide to do the same for the F-22.

 

[Saaho]

I placed KLJ-7A in a better position because it's 20 years newer

Not really. APG-80 was introduced in 2003. We are hearing about KLJ-7A for past 8-9 years now.

Secondly KLJ "ads" never mention the RCS. The last "ad" I saw mentions 170 km against "fighter sized" target. Given its chinese, this could mean anything. RCS of a typical fighter in Chinese inventory during 2015 or so (when these "ads" were shown) was about 2-3 sq meter.

 

[BMD]

Yes, the (V)2 will likely be GaN, 'cause the USAF didn't go for the intermediate upgrade after 2015.

Report from 2007:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA473439.pdf

...which produces the AN/APG-77(V)1 radar for the F-22A.

From what I've understood, the current radar does 400Km against 3m2 using narrow beams (so 300Km vs 1m2), whereas the 2015 upgrade was advertised for 400Km against 1m2 using the same way. So it's not such a brilliant upgrade if the associated costs were too high, especially in an environment where comparable adversary capabilities were still limited or non-existent.

Back then, there was news that the F-22 would get a GaN radar in 2025. Now it appears official funding will begin in 2024 for a result by 2030.

With the world going to sh!t, it appears we will see the F-22 serving until 2060.

The V1 was the intermediate upgrade. The F-22 entered service in 2005 with the APG-77 - that was the initial serial production version using the original GaAs modules. The V1 was an upgrade, as per the APG-63, which was in service 10+ years on the F-15 before the V1.

The APG-85 will be north of 400km against 1m^2, the APG-81 is already 200+km.

Keep dreaming, the war is costing NATO hardly anything.

 

[randomradio]

Not really. APG-80 was introduced in 2003. We are hearing about KLJ-7A for past 8-9 years now.

Secondly KLJ "ads" never mention the RCS. The last "ad" I saw mentions 170 km against "fighter sized" target. Given its chinese, this could mean anything. RCS of a typical fighter in Chinese inventory during 2015 or so (when these "ads" were shown) was about 2-3 sq meter.

View attachment 29245

KLJ-7A is based on technologies developed in the previous decade, but the antenna is still a generation ahead. It uses tile arrays versus APG-80's brick array.

Fighter-sized RCS here is 5m2.

So 170Km vs 5m2 for V1 and then 200 for V2. Very likely for liquid cooled.

For the JF-17, I've seen a brochure which said 150+ for 5m2. So it could be a lot closer to APG-83 than APG-80.

 

[randomradio]

The V1 was the intermediate upgrade. The F-22 entered service in 2005 with the APG-77 - that was the initial serial production version using the original GaAs modules. The V1 was an upgrade, as per the APG-63, which was in service 10+ years on the F-15 before the V1.

Dude, why are you going against established facts?

Who cares about APG-63, the APG-77 wasn't a serial production version, the main production version was V1.

Here, 2005. Offical NG website.

Newsroom

news.northropgrumman.com

BALTIMORE, May 25, 2005

Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) has delivered a next-generation variant of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar for the U.S. Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor air dominance fighter. The new radar will undergo aircraft integration testing this summer at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.

Designated AN/APG-77(V)1, the radar variant will enable air-to-ground capability provided by a new software suite that is being developed under a separate modernization program. The company has captured advances made in AESA design for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the Block 60 F-16 aircraft and incorporated them back into the APG-77. In addition, the (V)1 is more affordable than the current version, in part because the production line relies on a greater degree of automation.

"The (V)1's first flight on an F/A-22 will mark a key milestone for the combined Air Force/industry team," said John C. Johnson, vice president of Combat Avionic Systems at Northrop Grumman. "It paves the way for the integration of the new software suite, which will allow Raptor pilots to perform electronic warfare missions as well as attack fixed and moving targets on the ground in all-weather, day/night conditions."

Now I hope you can move on from your disappointment.

The APG-85 will be north of 400km against 1m^2, the APG-81 is already 200+km.

Sure. Once someone more important than you confirms it.

Keep dreaming, the war is costing NATO hardly anything.

What's that got to do with anything I said?

 

[BMD]

Dude, why are you going against established facts?

Who cares about APG-63, the APG-77 wasn't a serial production version, the main production version was V1.

Here, 2005. Offical NG website.

Newsroom

news.northropgrumman.com

BALTIMORE, May 25, 2005

Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) has delivered a next-generation variant of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar for the U.S. Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor air dominance fighter. The new radar will undergo aircraft integration testing this summer at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.

Designated AN/APG-77(V)1, the radar variant will enable air-to-ground capability provided by a new software suite that is being developed under a separate modernization program. The company has captured advances made in AESA design for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the Block 60 F-16 aircraft and incorporated them back into the APG-77. In addition, the (V)1 is more affordable than the current version, in part because the production line relies on a greater degree of automation.

"The (V)1's first flight on an F/A-22 will mark a key milestone for the combined Air Force/industry team," said John C. Johnson, vice president of Combat Avionic Systems at Northrop Grumman. "It paves the way for the integration of the new software suite, which will allow Raptor pilots to perform electronic warfare missions as well as attack fixed and moving targets on the ground in all-weather, day/night conditions."

Now I hope you can move on from your disappointment.



Sure. Once someone more important than you confirms it.



What's that got to do with anything I said?

Your own quote doesn't agree with you. What the quote also alludes to is improved software, which also increases range.

You show me one reliable source that says the RBE2-AA has greater range than the APG-81, which is nearly 70% larger. If the RBE2-AA is 160km, the APG-81 is at least 200km and probably nearer 240km, based on the radar equation (power and gain - range is proportional to number of modules raised to the power of 3/4. 1700 vs ~1000.

 

[randomradio]

Your own quote doesn't agree with you. What the quote also alludes to is improved software, which also increases range.

That is the V1. There is no other version, if there was, it would be called V2.

You show me one reliable source that says the RBE2-AA has greater range than the APG-81, which is nearly 70% larger. If the RBE2-AA is 160km, the APG-81 is at least 200km and probably nearer 240km, based on the radar equation (power and gain - range is proportional to number of modules raised to the power of 3/4. 1700 vs ~1000.

You've already read the source long ago. Anyway, it's not RBE2-AA, it's AESA RBE2, a different radar.

The issue with the APG-81 is it has insufficient cooling and electrical power, 'cause of engine problems.

Overheating F-35s May Get Service-Specific Cooling Upgrades, Likely Hiking Cost

The jets’ engines are running twice as hot as designed, boosting maintenance and capping performance.

www.defenseone.com

If you've ever built a desktop PC, you would know the importance of cooling.

The F-35 is still WIP, give it half a decade more to flush out problems. I hope the engine is changed for its sake.