Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Indian Navy, Ministry of Defence in a tussle over biggest submarine project

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: Jan 14, 2020, 06.20 PM IST
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NEW DELHI: A tussle has erupted over the biggest ‘Make in India’ project after the navy refrained from going ahead with a joint public-private bid while the defence ministry has emphasised that such teaming arrangements should be considered, as per procurement guidelines.

At the centre of the controversy is the Rs 45,000-cr submarine contest for the Navy—referred to as P 75I—that will see the winning Indian entity producing six submarines domestically with a foreign technology partner. The contract is being processed under the ‘strategic partnership model’.

Sources told ET that after an examination of financial records and manufacturing facilities, the navy’s empowered committee has shortlisted two Indian entities that would qualify to bid for the project—state-owned Mazagaon Docks Ltd and private sector giant Larsen and Toubro—both of which have considerable experience in shipbuilding.

On the other hand, all five foreign technology collaborators who applied have been cleared to take part in the competition.

However, a third bid that was jointly made by Adani Defence and state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) has not been cleared on the grounds that administrative permissions are not in place for the joint venture that responded to the competitive process.

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This has emerged as a point of contention, with the Department of Defence Production, under which HSL operates, asking the navy that the HSL-Adani bid also be considered for examination. The department has recommended this on the basis of procurement rules that state that cooperative arrangements between public and private sector companies should be considered.

At the same time, the department has confirmed that the proposal for the formation of a JV by HSL with Adani has been received and is under consideration by the ministry. The letter to the navy is believed to have been issued after the matter was raised by HSL-Adani.

The tussle has put the ministry in a unique position. At one hand, procurement rules and past precedence rules state that whenever possible, the widest possible competition needs to be ensured, to arrive at the most competitive pricing. On the other hand, the committee for shortlisting of Indian partners has hit on a technical point that was enshrined in the procurement bid issued by it.

The matter is now expected to land up at the defence ministry’s decision-taking body on procurement that is scheduled to meet at the end of this week.

The biggest shipbuilding plan under the strategic partnership model is expected to see the state owned MDL as the front runner.

Indian Navy, Ministry of Defence in a tussle over biggest submarine project
 
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Reactions: Bon Plan
Indian Navy, Ministry of Defence in a tussle over biggest submarine project

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: Jan 14, 2020, 06.20 PM IST
View attachment 13122

NEW DELHI: A tussle has erupted over the biggest ‘Make in India’ project after the navy refrained from going ahead with a joint public-private bid while the defence ministry has emphasised that such teaming arrangements should be considered, as per procurement guidelines.

At the centre of the controversy is the Rs 45,000-cr submarine contest for the Navy—referred to as P 75I—that will see the winning Indian entity producing six submarines domestically with a foreign technology partner. The contract is being processed under the ‘strategic partnership model’.

Sources told ET that after an examination of financial records and manufacturing facilities, the navy’s empowered committee has shortlisted two Indian entities that would qualify to bid for the project—state-owned Mazagaon Docks Ltd and private sector giant Larsen and Toubro—both of which have considerable experience in shipbuilding.

On the other hand, all five foreign technology collaborators who applied have been cleared to take part in the competition.

However, a third bid that was jointly made by Adani Defence and state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) has not been cleared on the grounds that administrative permissions are not in place for the joint venture that responded to the competitive process.

9.jpg



This has emerged as a point of contention, with the Department of Defence Production, under which HSL operates, asking the navy that the HSL-Adani bid also be considered for examination. The department has recommended this on the basis of procurement rules that state that cooperative arrangements between public and private sector companies should be considered.

At the same time, the department has confirmed that the proposal for the formation of a JV by HSL with Adani has been received and is under consideration by the ministry. The letter to the navy is believed to have been issued after the matter was raised by HSL-Adani.

The tussle has put the ministry in a unique position. At one hand, procurement rules and past precedence rules state that whenever possible, the widest possible competition needs to be ensured, to arrive at the most competitive pricing. On the other hand, the committee for shortlisting of Indian partners has hit on a technical point that was enshrined in the procurement bid issued by it.

The matter is now expected to land up at the defence ministry’s decision-taking body on procurement that is scheduled to meet at the end of this week.

The biggest shipbuilding plan under the strategic partnership model is expected to see the state owned MDL as the front runner.

Indian Navy, Ministry of Defence in a tussle over biggest submarine project
MDL....
If so it's a small move toward Scorpene XL or Barracuda S, in a move to short the learning curve.
 
Have any cut away model/photo of those two ? You know a photo showing the internals etc ?
NO.

I say Scorpene XL or smaller Barracuda (Barracuda S) because I know you need something bigger than actual scorpene but smaller than Short fins Barracuda. But it's only in my imagination.

I'm afraid Scorpene is too small in diameter to fit VLS. So maybe more a smaller (shorter, but same diameter) Barracuda.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gautam
With 2 Indian Shipyards &, 5 Submarine Cos Approved, Crucial Step In Project 75-India

By Shiv Aroor Jan 21 2020, 6:36 pm
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The Indian MoD has shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign submarine manufacturers for Project 75-India (P75I) submarine build program that envisages the construction of 6 new generation attack submarines in India. A meeting of the apex Defence Acquisition Council has approved the selection of Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) and L&T as the Indian Strategic Partners (SP). One of these firms will be chosen to construct the six submarines in country.

The P75I line is a follow-on to an existing line in India. India currently has an active submarine production line at the state-owned Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) that has delivered the first two of six Naval Group Scorpene-class submarines to the Indian Navy. The P75I program will choose from five submarine types, with the MoD today approving the set: the French Naval Group Scorpene, the Russian Rubin Design Bureau Amur 1650, German Thyssenkrupp Type 214, Spanish Navantia S80 and an offering from South Korea’s DSME.

An_under_construction_submarine_section_placed_in_the_newly_commissioned_Submarine_Assembly_Wo...jpg
The Scorpene-class submarine line at India’s MDL

Importantly, today’s downselect by the MoD formalises the rejection of India’s Adani Group from contention. The Adani Group had sought to be considered as a Strategic Partner in a tie-up with the state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL).

The Swedish Saab Kockums A26 and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Soryu-class were prosective contenders early in the program but dropped out along the way. As things stand, the Indian government will now push ahead with choosing selecting a submarine and getting one (or both) of the selected Strategic Partners to build them in India.

The Indian Navy currently operates Russian Kilo-class and German Type 209 conventional submarines, with the first of six Scorpene-class submarines being the latest into service. While the P75I submarines will be newer generation boats overall, the biggest capability jump will be in endurance and survivability from the mandatory Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) that will differentiate these submarines from every other that the Indian Navy operates. The P75I is also expected to stipulate weaponry requirements like fitment of the submarine-launched BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. Watching from the sidelines, BrahMos Corp. has had discussions for years with the P75I’s possible vendors, confirming two years ago to Livefist that all likely contenders are on board for a vertical launch BrahMos fit and later, the BrahMos Mini from torpedo tubes.

Russia seeks a virtual walkover in the program, judging that the process has too many moving parts, and that the Indian government is being overly optimistic in how it has constructed the process. France’s Naval Group believes it has an edge with the existing Scorpene build program, proposing that the existing line can easily construct improved Scorpenes with MESMA AIP segments. While the program is widely perceived to be a toss-up between the Russian and French submarines, Indian defence tendering mandates an expanded competition, borne out by the MoD’s selection today of five prospective submarine vendors.


With clear numbers finally giving much-needed shape to the plodding P75I project, the most crucial phase of the effort now looms. Not only will this be a huge test of the much-bandied Strategic Partnership (SP) model, but will be experimenting thus at a time when the Indian Navy is desperate now to let submarine strength levels fall any further than they already have. Sea denial capabilities have come under tremendous pressure in recent years owing to expanded Chinese submarine activity in the Indian Ocean.

In its nascent stages, India is also developing a nuclear-powered attack submarine type. Details in this Livefist video:

 
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Why I don't want P75I to go ahead.
Out of 5 designs, South Korean design is a Type 209 derivative , Spanish S80 (less said the better), Amur 1650 (let the Russians start building those over Kilos first, the thing that they still choose Kilo over lada...) , German Type 214 (which lost to Scorpene in 2006) and at last Scorpene , for around 6.5 billion USD...

This kind of spending is not justified. Especially when we can still get 6 scorpenes from MDL for little over 3.5 billion usd and buy F21 and MdCN from France in a separate package. Still will save us 8 years and 2-3 billions minimum.
 
L&T may bag submarine contract

Special Correspondent
Mumbai, January 23, 2020 22:48 IST
Updated:January 23, 2020 22:48 IST

Engineering and construction major Larsen and Toubro (L&T) is likely to bag a mega contract for making submarines in India, as it is among the two Indian firms selected by the government for the ₹50,000-crore project to build six conventional submarines in India for the Navy.

Among private players, Adani Defence failed to make the cut following a detailed evaluation of eligibility criteria by a high-powered committee. Initially, Reliance Naval & Engineering was among the Indian contenders, but could not make the shortlist due to financial woes. The other Indian firm is Mazagaon Docks Ltd., which is running behind schedule in executing the earlier submarine project awarded to it.

L&T may bag submarine contract

What kind of reporting is this ? L&T may win because it was shortlisted, you can say the same for MDL.
 
And government of India will have them sabotaged by the ISI or MSS or joint op at the shore itself :p Like sindhughosh and sindhurakshak. Because atithi devo bhava , ahimsa parmo dharma, third cheek party and democracy is in danger party
How about the reason being repeated incompetence of Indian naval personnel ..?
 
After IAF Rafales, MBDA’s Naval SCALP On ‘Super Scorpene’ For India’s Project 75I

By Shiv Aroor, Feb 05 2020, 8:54 pm
EPWCpXLUwAA8uOl-1.jpg

European missile house MBDA’s long range Naval Cruise Missile (NCM) will be part of the weapons package tied to the improved Scorpene submarine that’s vying for Project 75I, India’s ambitious plan to build six new generation conventional attack submarines in country. The NCM, a ship/submarine version of the SCALP cruise missile that the Indian Air Force gets with its 36 Rafales, is receiving headline treatment at MBDA’s presence in the DefExpo 2020 show that kicked off today in Lucknow, India.

The contest, which has shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign submarine types, is widely being seen as a straight fight between the Naval Group-MDL Scorpene and Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corp-L&T for the Amur 1650. Livefist visited production facilities for the latter last year for this detailed report on the Russian pitch.

The decision to field the NCM is unsurprising. Russia’s Amur 1650 pitch comes with options for the Kalibr/Club series of land attack cruise missiles. It was therefore expected that in addition to the Scorpene’s Exocet anti-ship missiles, the package needed a deep strike cruise missile capability, now fulfilled with the NCM.


In literature released ahead of Def Expo this year, MBDA said in a statement, ‘This very long-range surface attack stand-off cruise missile is designed to attack deep into enemy territory. Given its range, it will provide navies and surface and sub-surface vessels with the ability to maintain a prolonged dissuasive force in theatre unlike an aircraft launched missile. Drawing on elements of the combat-proven SCALP/Storm Shadow and weighing some 1,400 kg with an overall length of around 6.50m and a diameter of 0.5m, NCM offers destructive power against key infrastructure targets. Maximum precision and minimum collateral damages are assured thanks to the weapon’s guidance system which combines inertial guidance, terrain matching, and GPS with an imaging infrared seeker to achieve metric accuracies in the terminal phase. The missile has already been tested for both surface ship and submarine launch (vertically launched for the former and via the torpedo tubes for the latter with the submarine version housed in a special sea to air transition container). Surface ship operational capability was declared in May 2015 after a series of test firings had been successfully completed.’

The NCM is operational on the French Navy’s FREMM mutipurpose frigates, and will be on its current and future Barracuda-class nuclear submarines. The NCM has also seen combat, with French frigate Aquitane launching an undisclosed number of the weapon system during the 2018 land-attack bombings in Syria alongside air-launched SCALP missiles.

The SCALP air-launched cruise missile, of which the NCM is a derivative, will be in service with the Indian Air Force soon — the first IAF Rafale jets arrive in India in May, with deliveries of the first SCALPS expected to take place any time now.

Separately, it is widely expected that the P75I’s specifications, once further defined, will also formally demand the capability to deploy BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles. Livefist can confirm that BrahMos Corp. has completed discussions previously with all 5 shortlisted submarine vendors on integration of the BrahMos. The submarines shortlisted in P75I are the French Naval Group Scorpene (the baseline submarine built currently in India at Mazagon Docks0, the Russian Rubin Design Bureau Amur 1650, German Thyssenkrupp Type 214, Spanish Navantia S80 and an offering from South Korea’s DSME.

After IAF Rafales, MBDA’s Naval SCALP On ‘Super Scorpene’ For India’s Project 75I
 
Why I don't want P75I to go ahead.
Out of 5 designs, South Korean design is a Type 209 derivative , Spanish S80 (less said the better), Amur 1650 (let the Russians start building those over Kilos first, the thing that they still choose Kilo over lada...) , German Type 214 (which lost to Scorpene in 2006) and at last Scorpene , for around 6.5 billion USD...

This kind of spending is not justified. Especially when we can still get 6 scorpenes from MDL for little over 3.5 billion usd and buy F21 and MdCN from France in a separate package. Still will save us 8 years and 2-3 billions minimum.

Could be that data leak making our navy bit nervous about further scorpenes?
 
After IAF Rafales, MBDA’s Naval SCALP On ‘Super Scorpene’ For India’s Project 75I

By Shiv Aroor, Feb 05 2020, 8:54 pm
View attachment 13896

European missile house MBDA’s long range Naval Cruise Missile (NCM) will be part of the weapons package tied to the improved Scorpene submarine that’s vying for Project 75I, India’s ambitious plan to build six new generation conventional attack submarines in country. The NCM, a ship/submarine version of the SCALP cruise missile that the Indian Air Force gets with its 36 Rafales, is receiving headline treatment at MBDA’s presence in the DefExpo 2020 show that kicked off today in Lucknow, India.

The contest, which has shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign submarine types, is widely being seen as a straight fight between the Naval Group-MDL Scorpene and Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corp-L&T for the Amur 1650. Livefist visited production facilities for the latter last year for this detailed report on the Russian pitch.

The decision to field the NCM is unsurprising. Russia’s Amur 1650 pitch comes with options for the Kalibr/Club series of land attack cruise missiles. It was therefore expected that in addition to the Scorpene’s Exocet anti-ship missiles, the package needed a deep strike cruise missile capability, now fulfilled with the NCM.


In literature released ahead of Def Expo this year, MBDA said in a statement, ‘This very long-range surface attack stand-off cruise missile is designed to attack deep into enemy territory. Given its range, it will provide navies and surface and sub-surface vessels with the ability to maintain a prolonged dissuasive force in theatre unlike an aircraft launched missile. Drawing on elements of the combat-proven SCALP/Storm Shadow and weighing some 1,400 kg with an overall length of around 6.50m and a diameter of 0.5m, NCM offers destructive power against key infrastructure targets. Maximum precision and minimum collateral damages are assured thanks to the weapon’s guidance system which combines inertial guidance, terrain matching, and GPS with an imaging infrared seeker to achieve metric accuracies in the terminal phase. The missile has already been tested for both surface ship and submarine launch (vertically launched for the former and via the torpedo tubes for the latter with the submarine version housed in a special sea to air transition container). Surface ship operational capability was declared in May 2015 after a series of test firings had been successfully completed.’

The NCM is operational on the French Navy’s FREMM mutipurpose frigates, and will be on its current and future Barracuda-class nuclear submarines. The NCM has also seen combat, with French frigate Aquitane launching an undisclosed number of the weapon system during the 2018 land-attack bombings in Syria alongside air-launched SCALP missiles.

The SCALP air-launched cruise missile, of which the NCM is a derivative, will be in service with the Indian Air Force soon — the first IAF Rafale jets arrive in India in May, with deliveries of the first SCALPS expected to take place any time now.

Separately, it is widely expected that the P75I’s specifications, once further defined, will also formally demand the capability to deploy BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles. Livefist can confirm that BrahMos Corp. has completed discussions previously with all 5 shortlisted submarine vendors on integration of the BrahMos. The submarines shortlisted in P75I are the French Naval Group Scorpene (the baseline submarine built currently in India at Mazagon Docks0, the Russian Rubin Design Bureau Amur 1650, German Thyssenkrupp Type 214, Spanish Navantia S80 and an offering from South Korea’s DSME.

After IAF Rafales, MBDA’s Naval SCALP On ‘Super Scorpene’ For India’s Project 75I

Hopefully it's not MTCR restricted.
Yes that makes the sabotage and leak more easier :)

I have repeatedly said that IN is highly vulnerable due to that.

The Scorpene leak happened outside India, and it didn't have important information.