Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
It's to avoid the same complications that bedeviled the MMRCA where Dassault refused to stand guarantee for HAL or the same issue which saw TKMS walk out of the present project & SAAB Kockums too, IIRC.


Who's going to guarantee the performance of the DRDO / NMRL AIP systems aboard the Project 75 (I) submarines? DRDO / NMRL, the local system integrator or the foreign OEM?

Thank God the IN froze on PFC as the AIP of choice & didn't include all other systems in the tender or we'd be in a future position of maintaining a Sterling Engine / MESMA AIPs on one set of Subs & the PFC on another set.
Eeh, still not convinced. I will still say if Siemens one is good and proven , just buy them for the Scorpenes too.

Because for the DRDO one, the route I see is I'm 2025 the 1st Kalvari goes into deep refit, gets AIP module plugged to it. Goes into sea trials in 2027. Another 2-3 years of testing and then gets approval for fitting into other submarines.

Better option is to sign a deal with Germans by 2023 end , get Siemens systems onboard Kalvaris too. You cut down the testing to time of 5 years.
 
Because for the DRDO one, the route I see is I'm 2025 the 1st Kalvari goes into deep refit, gets AIP module plugged to it. Goes into sea trials in 2027. Another 2-3 years of testing and then gets approval for fitting into other submarines.
I think there were news reports linked right here earlier this year where a Kilo class or an HDW class sub was allocated by the IN for experimental purposes including for ITC of Li ion battery packs as well as for the desi AIP PFC. As per that report the entire process of installation of the AIP plug would take 12-18 months followed by testing. The testing period wasn't specified though I'd take it as 1 year.

I believe if these T/Ls are true then the entire process of ITC of an AIP powered PFC aboard the first of the Kalvari Class should be completed within 3 yrs. S Jha confirmed that he doesn't foresee any issue with the sea based trials as these PFC powered AIPs have undergone stress tests, vibration, braking, etc simulating the pitch yaw & other turbulent movements undersea.
 
I think there were news reports linked right here earlier this year where a Kilo class or an HDW class sub was allocated by the IN for experimental purposes including for ITC of Li ion battery packs as well as for the desi AIP PFC. As per that report the entire process of installation of the AIP plug would take 12-18 months followed by testing. The testing period wasn't specified though I'd take it as 1 year.

I believe if these T/Ls are true then the entire process of ITC of an AIP powered PFC aboard the first of the Kalvari Class should be completed within 3 yrs. S Jha confirmed that he doesn't foresee any issue with the sea based trials as these PFC powered AIPs have undergone stress tests, vibration, braking, etc simulating the pitch yaw & other turbulent movements undersea.
If you want to open up the hull, just for general repairs, that alone take 2 year. Adding a plug will surely need more time.

And then testing, a minimum of 2 years for that.

What my concern is, that if I belive the optimist people here then P75I would get signed by 2023. And by 2027-28 the first submarine will be ready for launch.

And with the current speed of work on drdo aip, that is exactly the timeline we might get it to certify.

Are you getting what I am trying to point out ? Means like why is this approach being done?

And if say by 2030 our DRDO AIP will be operational in say 2 Kalvaris, will we change the spec for rest of P75I under construction and add our AIP ?

Navy needs to understand these things. I think the Navy brass is mistaken on this.

(For the Kilo or Type 209 testbed news, I want it to be true. But I asked a couple of people and they said the plan is to test it on 1st Scorpene only. )
 
If you want to open up the hull, just for general repairs, that alone take 2 year. Adding a plug will surely need more time.
What you're suggesting is the T/L for N powered submarines. 30-36 months which has now been brought it down to < 24 months in case of the French Navy.

Cutting open the Submarine is relatively easy. It's the work that follows that's difficult . I would say anywhere between 18-24 months from start to finish. The time taken for sea trials would be extra.
And then testing, a minimum of 2 years for that.
1 year. There aren't any all weather trials to be conducted. This is going to sail primarily in the Arabian Sea & BoB. That's where you focus your trials.
What my concern is, that if I belive the optimist people here then P75I would get signed by 2023. And by 2027-28 the first submarine will be ready for launch.
Speaking of optimists, resident story teller seem to be MIA. Strangely Avi Raina has been missing too since last month . Pls note @Gautam

On topic we both know that it'd take a good 8-10 yrs for the first submarine to emerge for sea trials post the contract is signed which I don't see happening at least in the next couple of years. Latest news indicates that only DSME & TKMS have re affirmed their participation ever since MoD has clarified it's stance on the liability clause & reiterated it's choice of AIP as PFC.

No news on Navantia's participation, or whether it has qualified or even if the MoD / IN desire it's participation.

I guess things can be rapidly expedited from here on.
And with the current speed of work on drdo aip, that is exactly the timeline we might get it to certify.
Depends on when we get the first Kalvari class submarine for refit / MLU.
Are you getting what I am trying to point out ? Means like why is this approach being done?
Already answered this above.
And if say by 2030 our DRDO AIP will be operational in say 2 Kalvaris, will we change the spec for rest of P75I under construction and add our AIP ?
No. I've given you the reasons earlier. We have frozen on PFC as the AIP of choice. It's just going to be two different makes - one desi, one imported. I happened to read an H I Sutton article sometime back on the P-75(I) tender saga. He's speculating IN is interested in the latest developments in the PFC segment among foreign players to see how much we can adopt / indigenise . Prima facie it makes some sense.
Navy needs to understand these things. I think the Navy brass is mistaken on this.
I've just delineated their plan above. Whether it's good or bad time will tell.

(For the Kilo or Type 209 testbed news, I want it to be true. But I asked a couple of people and they said the plan is to test it on 1st Scorpene only. )
Yes. It turned out the Kilo class was to test the Li ion battery backs & electric propulsion. AIP got forcibly thrown into the mix. Dr Satish Reddy in an interview clarified last year that the AIP would be test fitted into the first INS Kalvari class sub which would come in for a refit in 2025. Hopefully by 2028 we certify our own indigenous AIP system.

You can also gauge the level of confidence that DRDO / NRML, IN & MoD have in this system that they're directly plugging it into the final product instead of trialing it on some test bed. It's the equivalent of say we developing the Kaveri keeping with the tech specs of the IAF & directly fitting it onto the LCA for flight trails & as it's engine if it clears all tests without first testing & certifying it on an FTB.
 
I don't think that's how the calculation works since in any case these subs meant for littoral patrolling. It's not doing a tour of duty in the SCS . It's not meant for that. We have our upcoming SSNs for this type of activity.
Using your AIP subs for cabotage and coasting? Well, i admit it's a bold idea i hadn't thought of…

All you have to do is to convince China that your AIP subs will never, ô never, disrupt their supply lines in case of a war.

So maybe China will allow Germany to build your submarines without sanctioning the Holy Trinity, in nomine: St. Mercedes, St. Benz & St. BMV.

Goodluck my friend.
 
Using your AIP subs for cabotage and coasting? Well, i admit it's a bold idea i hadn't thought of…

All you have to do is to convince China that your AIP subs will never, ô never, disrupt their supply lines in case of a war.

So maybe China will allow Germany to build your submarines without sanctioning the Holy Trinity, in nomine: St. Mercedes, St. Benz & St. BMV.

Goodluck my friend.
Germans have denied China engines for their submarines recently. For both Pakistan and Thai export. So if China had to do something, they would have done something 1 year ago.
 
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Germans have denied China engines for their submarines recently. For both Pakistan and Thai export. So if China had to do something, they would have done something 1 year ago.
The most recent avatar of the german unreliability in defence matters:

(n-tv.de, aug.27)
Main battle tanks from South Korea. Poland bypasses Germany in arms deal

A gigantic arms deal between Poland and South Korea is also a vote of no confidence in Berlin. Chancellor Scholz's hesitant attitude towards arms deliveries to Ukraine could take its revenge: German companies will go away empty-handed. Out of disappointment, they say in Warsaw.

Last#: (…) The newspaper "Welt am Sonntag" had reported, referring to Polish government circles, that no orders from Warsaw were going to German arms manufacturers such as Rheinmetall or Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW). Poland said that German delivery times were too long in view of the Russian threat. In addition, Poland is disappointed about Germany's hesitant attitude towards the delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine. Warsaw wondered whether it could rely on ammunition deliveries from Germany if Russia's army crossed the border to Poland. /deepl
 
Using your AIP subs for cabotage and coasting? Well, i admit it's a bold idea i hadn't thought of…
What exactly are SSKs meant to do apart from hunting & killing other subs, ships & attacking land targets, reconnaissance etc? Are you even aware of the distances between the southern most tip of India & the SCS?
All you have to do is to convince China that your AIP subs will never, ô never, disrupt their supply lines in case of a war.
Pls check on the distance between the southern most tip of the Andaman & Nicobar Island chain & the entry into the Malacca Straits to see what can we do even without subs.
So maybe China will allow Germany to build your submarines without sanctioning the Holy Trinity, in nomine: St. Mercedes, St. Benz & St. BMV.

Goodluck my friend.
Did China sanction France for supplying India with the Rafale or the Scorpenes?
 
What exactly are SSKs meant to do apart from hunting & killing other subs, ships (…)
Aip mode allows the “boat” a ~3 weeks undersea endurance; but at a very low speed ~2-3 knots. This kind of hunting is of course not pursuing, but ambushing, ie patrolling an area (at the exit of Malacca, Sunda, Lombok (etc) straits…) in total silence with passive listening.
Are you even aware of the distances between the southern most tip of India & the SCS?
Why “the southern most tip”? If you talk about the SCS, then consider Eastern Command and A&NC. INS Virbahu - INS Jarawa or INS Kardip ~1200km.
 
Aip mode allows the “boat” a ~3 weeks undersea endurance; but at a very low speed ~2-3 knots. This kind of hunting is of course not pursuing, but ambushing, ie patrolling an area (at the exit of Malacca, Sunda, Lombok (etc) straits…) in total silence with passive listening.
In order to do what you're suggesting we need bases in SCS to be patrolling in the SCS. Otherwise this task is best accomplished by SSNs instead of SSKs.

Besides we don't need submarines to choke off the Malacca Straits or even Sunda or Lombok though they'd be a good force multiplier. The MKIs equipped with Brahmos & the P-8Is along with Sea Guardians, Reapers , satellites, SOSUS based sensor network & the US Japanese IST , etc are good enough for the time being.

Why “the southern most tip”? If you talk about the SCS, then consider Eastern Command and A&NC. INS Virbahu - INS Jarawa or INS Kardip ~1200km.
As of now none of our bases in the A&N island chain houses a submarine base or even a base for Air based ASW like the P-8I. All these are still in the planning stages. It'd take a decade or 2 to base submarines there though the P-8Is would probably start operations from bases there by the end of this decade.
 
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All the more reason why it's easier for China to sanction France. Yet they didn't. It's the principle involved not the quantum of trade.
The sanction would not be painful for France, the amounts are too low, especially since part of the trade is not sanctionable, such as the spare parts for the Airbus that China bought from us.
 
The sanction would not be painful for France, the amounts are too low, especially since part of the trade is not sanctionable, such as the spare parts for the Airbus that China bought from us.
The bottom line being China isn't interested nor in a position to sanction either France or Germany for exporting defense equipment to India.
 
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In real life operational scenario a good AIP will give 15-20% more capacity to the SSK and addition of Li Ion batteries together then the performance will be upto 50% improved.

Remember the AIP is not powering the submarine directly, its constant low charge ensures slower battery discharge. That's it.

If you get Li batteries then the performance of batteries improve.

But don't you go for that talk of now that AIP is there Submarine will be under water for 14 days.
 
In order to do what you're suggesting we need bases in SCS to be patrolling in the SCS. Otherwise this task is best accomplished by SSNs instead of SSKs.

Besides we don't need submarines to choke off the Malacca Straits or even Sunda or Lombok though they'd be a good force multiplier. The MKIs equipped with Brahmos & the P-8Is along with Sea Guardians, Reapers , satellites, SOSUS based sensor network & the US Japanese IST , etc are good enough for the time being.


As of now none of our bases in the A&N island chain houses a submarine base or even a base for Air based ASW like the P-8I. All these are still in the planning stages. It'd take a decade or 2 to base submarines there though the P-8Is would probably start operations from bases there by the end of this decade.
I may be wrong, but I think you are not convinced of the relevance of the AIP for the Indian Navy? I can understand that, as the next generation (P76) will be nuclear powered.
@Ankit Kumar, too.
 
I may be wrong, but I think you are not convinced of the relevance of the AIP for the Indian Navy? I can understand that, as the next generation (P76) will be nuclear powered.
@Ankit Kumar, too.
AIP along with Lithium Ion for ssk is also important for duties near our coast.

A Scorpene with AIP plug, Li battery and 8 lacms based out of Mumbai or Vizag is important too.

We need around 3 submarines active on patrol for Pakistan all the time, that will mean around 12 SSKs for western coast alone.

Another 1-2 on patrol all times for BoB and another 1-2 for ANC. That means another 12 SSKs for that.

So for these duties a Scorpene with an AIP plug and Li Ion , 8-10 lcams through torpedo tubes, good enough.
For anything further away you need SSNs.

You need 2 SSNs for 2 CBGs, 1 for Malacca, 1 for Persian Gulf , 1-2 for SSBN patrol and 1 for southern IOR.

That's atleast 6 active SSNs active all the time , so atleast a fleet of 15-18 SSNs.

20 or so SSKs and 12 SSNs , this is the minimum requirements considering the huge cost. Ideally 28-30 SSKs and 18 SSNs (with LACM VLS) or 18 SSNs plus 5-6 SSGNs.
 
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I may be wrong, but I think you are not convinced of the relevance of the AIP for the Indian Navy? I can understand that, as the next generation (P76) will be nuclear powered.
@Ankit Kumar, too.
I think what we have here is a classic case of a failure in communication.

Let me explain. The IN's doctrine in submarine warfare extends to having a light class conventional sub for littoral defence & secondary attack capabilities which the Scorpene is supposed to fulfill.

The 3000 Tonne + capacity subs under Project -75 (I) & 76( which is of indigenous design ) would be for attack roles in the deep seas comprising of the Arabian Sea, upto the Persian Gulf, the Bab el Mendeb straits, the Bay of Bengal & the mouth of the Malacca Straits & secondary defence capabilities in our littorals.

Neither does the IN doctrine visualize these submarines playing a role in the SCS /ECS / Yellow Sea or the larger Pacific Ocean nor are these submarines equipped to do so.

For that there's the SSNs being built under Project 75 Alpha.