Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Depends on how much of an advantage there is in doing that. But nothing much's gonna happen from our side this decade.

The neighboring countries to India and China will go hot, and Indian navy has a big role to play in this. More than airforce. Sometimes I think, if LCA procurement and Rafale procurement could be brought under Navy along with normal navy procurement and ongoing project like P75. This will be quicker than air force.
 
As per the ex Cmde , navy preference is on surface ships when it comes to do asw patrol. Sub based deterrence patrols need more trained personnel suited to the job than the subs , hence the choice is so maybe. In a way it makes sense judging by navy buying surface & airborne asw assets more.

Poor navy's words. Both are necessary. And an SSN is required for that. And a surface fleet for ASW is definitely necessary and more important. But the advantage with an SSN is it can zip around to problem areas very quickly.
 
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The neighboring countries to India and China will go hot, and Indian navy has a big role to play in this. More than airforce. Sometimes I think, if LCA procurement and Rafale procurement could be brought under Navy along with normal navy procurement and ongoing project like P75. This will be quicker than air force.

The IN has no real expertise in managing the IAF's requirements.
 
I believe IN should gain this expertise, more than air force its the IN aviation which can actually threaten the adversary's supply chain in land and sea. I don't have much hope from IAF.

They don't operate where the IAF operates. And the IN relies more on the IAF as well.
 
We need to find a perfect balance between surface and sub-surface fleet. Both are required to deter and dominate our foes.
Yes of course, obvious they have subs on priority. But to counter any chinese submarine encroachment , it is likely the surface asw assets as well as the airborne ones be it the drones and P-8I, those will be the first choice. Subs will do their own patroling , I guess. I expect NG-OPVs to have some sort of anti sub detection system with it. Several naval projects are at advanced stage, then its upto navy to give priority order contract to which. NG Destroyer class is somewhat away and good chance for OPV and ASW orders to go through.
 
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Poor navy's words. Both are necessary. And an SSN is required for that. And a surface fleet for ASW is definitely necessary and more important. But the advantage with an SSN is it can zip around to problem areas very quickly.
I am wholly not sure, I think navy priority is correct, which is keeping the backyard clean with the existing resources. For that, it does not need to be symmetric asset war, ie a sub countering another sub. ASW surface ships usually do that and in the shallow waters between ANC and the mainland naval based that is more practical approach augmented by airborne asw assets. Until we are getting ssn of our own, this should be the priority act. This is why navy wanted the MQ drones.
 

They don't operate where the IAF operates. And the IN relies more on the IAF as well.

This relying on air force must be reduced, they are already over loaded in engaging at land border with handful of birds without indigenous engine and squadrons below threshhold.

Get more Rafales or similar (apart from those 26 Rafales in Naval config) for IN to create naval air strike force with ASW included in the avionics , and synchronize this with project 75. It has to be fine tuned for optimum results.
 
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I am wholly not sure, I think navy priority is correct, which is keeping the backyard clean with the existing resources. For that, it does not need to be symmetric asset war, ie a sub countering another sub. ASW surface ships usually do that and in the shallow waters between ANC and the mainland naval based that is more practical approach augmented by airborne asw assets. Until we are getting ssn of our own, this should be the priority act. This is why navy wanted the MQ drones.

That's different. We would need ASW ships anyway. But saying one is better than the other is wrong. There are different advantages to both. But a poor navy can only afford small surface ships.

The issue with surface ships is they are more tuned to deal with SSKs, they obviously can't match the performance of SSNs without nuclear propulsion. So SSNs are still the best ASW assets.
This relying on air force must be reduced, they are already over loaded in engaging at land border with handful of birds without indigenous engine and squadrons below threshhold.

Get more Rafales or similar (apart from those 26 Rafales in Naval config) for IN to create naval air strike force with ASW included in the avionics , and synchronize this with project 75. It has to be fine tuned for optimum results.

Procurement decisions are made by the govt, not by the forces. So whatever you want the IN to help the IAF with is already pointless.

And yes, the IN is working towards independence from the IAF, but that's gonna take time.
 
Procurement decisions are made by the govt, not by the forces.
The current officer handling the acquisition of maritime systems is from forces. Plus the policy making group in MoD is also consisting mostly from forces and only finance is kept with civil services.

RFI should be formulated by SHQ, in consultation with DRDO, DDP and HQ IDS to ensure
that comprehensive response is generated from vendors, to facilitate addressing all aspects of
operational requirements and defining attributes. A copy of the RFI will be shared with DRDO,
DDP and HQ IDS, for their comments, which should be provided within the stipulated timeframe
post which it will be considered as ‘nil-comments.’ The comments obtained would be duly
incorporated. RFI should also ask for details about the vendors as per Appendix B to this Chapter



After evaluating the recommendations of the SHQs/initiating departments, the SCAPCC
will refer the cases for according AoN to SCAPCHC for an estimated cost (including all taxes and
duties)42 up to ₹300 Crores47. For cases beyond ₹ 300 Crores47, the SHQs/initiating departments
will refer cases to the SCAPCHC, which will carry out categorisation, based on the
recommendations of SHQs/initiating departments and refer the cases upto ₹ 500 Crores47 to the
DPB and beyond ₹ 500 Crores47 to the DAC for accord of AoN


source MoD , India

Forces have equivalent role as civilian government.
 
The current officer handling the acquisition of maritime systems is from forces. Plus the policy making group in MoD is also consisting mostly from forces and only finance is kept with civil services.

RFI should be formulated by SHQ, in consultation with DRDO, DDP and HQ IDS to ensure
that comprehensive response is generated from vendors, to facilitate addressing all aspects of
operational requirements and defining attributes. A copy of the RFI will be shared with DRDO,
DDP and HQ IDS, for their comments, which should be provided within the stipulated timeframe
post which it will be considered as ‘nil-comments.’ The comments obtained would be duly
incorporated. RFI should also ask for details about the vendors as per Appendix B to this Chapter



After evaluating the recommendations of the SHQs/initiating departments, the SCAPCC
will refer the cases for according AoN to SCAPCHC for an estimated cost (including all taxes and
duties)42 up to ₹300 Crores47. For cases beyond ₹ 300 Crores47, the SHQs/initiating departments
will refer cases to the SCAPCHC, which will carry out categorisation, based on the
recommendations of SHQs/initiating departments and refer the cases upto ₹ 500 Crores47 to the
DPB and beyond ₹ 500 Crores47 to the DAC for accord of AoN


source MoD , India

Forces have equivalent role as civilian government.

This is only the initial stage. But the entire process is handled by civilians.

The forces can only create demand and request for tech. But the time and method of choosing tech and negotiations are conducted by the govt. It's like a parent-child relationship. The IN wants both SSN and carrier, but the govt said they can only pick 1 for now.
 
Out for a year & what do I see ? RST is gone beserk with his Modi = Nehru or his not putting it in as many words , which is Modi's not investing in cutting edge technology like the Rafales.

Why ? Coz he doesn't want to invite the wrath of the Chinese A couple of years earlier RST - the old humbug , was all about the CAPEX of the armed forces was combined such that each individual forces's requirement was amalgamated with the rest.

Hence each force's requirement would be fulfilled sequentially. And now this.. if I were anywhere near RST this would be my reaction -

images (42).jpeg
 
This is only the initial stage. But the entire process is handled by civilians.

The forces can only create demand and request for tech. But the time and method of choosing tech and negotiations are conducted by the govt. It's like a parent-child relationship. The IN wants both SSN and carrier, but the govt said they can only pick 1 for now.

The DAC is the decision making body which includes , Raksha Mantri , CDS, COAS, CNS, CAS, Defense Secretary, Secretary DDP, Secretary DRD, Secretary defense Finance , Vice chief of defense staff, Special secretary ( acquisition)

In almost all decision making the three chiefs, CDS are present.


And in acquisition wing there will always be a two star rank officer from forces present along with a JS.

In think the forces understand that they don't have the money.
 

Field evaluation of bids for Navy’s mega submarine deal underway; German govt. to acquire stake in TKMS

Only Germany and Spain submitted bids for the deal, the deadline for which saw several extensions before finally culminating in July 2023


The German government is expected to take up a stake in submarine manufacturer, the TKMS (Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems), and discussions are on, it has been learnt. Meanwhile, the Indian Navy’s mega submarine deal under Project-75I, estimated to cost upwards of ₹43,000 crore, has moved to the evaluation stage with compliance checks of the two bids received, one of which is from the TKMS.

An Indian Navy team visited TKMS in March and conducted the Field Evaluation Trials (FET) and it has met the criteria specified, multiple sources confirmed. The FET of Navantia of Spain, the second bid, is expected to be completed before June, it has been learnt. An Indian Navy team visited the TKMS and carried out FET from March 22 to 28, two sources independently confirmed.

The German government’s move to pick up a stake in the TKMS is in line with the company’s desire to convince its stakeholders of the viability of the submarine business, sources said noting that it would automatically bring in the Government-to-Government part, essential for a deal of this size and technological sophistication. The TKMS was initially not inclined to bid for P-75I due to its scope and complexity but was later convinced by the German government to bid for it, the two sources cited above confirmed. The war in Ukraine and change in Europe’s security outlook also contributed to the German government’s interest in expanding defence cooperation in a big way, sources said.

The German government’s move to pick up a stake in the TKMS is in line with the company’s interest and would strengthen its shareholders’ confidence, sources observed.

The design offered by the TKMS for P-75I is based on its highly successful Class 214 submarine as well as Class 212CD, with the submarine featuring angular design for minimised radar cross-section, it has been learnt. Meanwhile, Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL), the Indian partner of the TKMS, has begun work on the first phase of submarine design, sources in the know said.

Indigenous content​

The Request For Proposal (RFP) issued by the Navy detailing the specifications states that the first submarine should have indigenous content (IC) of 45% which should go up to 60% for the sixth and last submarine.

The final design will be done jointly by the TKMS and the MDL. “MDL will be able to give 60% IC from the first submarine itself and India will own the design which enables it to make any integration of indigenous equipment as desired even at a later stage,” one source stated.

In a major decision as the deal moves forward, Germany early April granted small arms licence to India, a significant exception given the ban on exports to third countries, and in the last couple of months liberalised the licensing requirements for sale of military equipment as required under its BAFA (Federal Office for Economic Affairs and Export Control).

Only Germany and Spain submitted bids for the deal, the deadline for which saw several extensions before finally culminating in July 2023. The deal is being progressed under the Strategic Partnership model of the defence acquisition procedure. Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and the MDL are the two Indian shipyards shortlisted to partner with foreign submarine manufactures to manufacture six advanced conventional submarines in India with significant technology transfer.

Navantia has offered a submarine based on its S80 class, the first of which was launched in 2021 and was commissioned into the Spanish Navy as S-81 ‘Isaac Peral’ last November, while L&T will be responsible for constructing the submarines. The Spanish government has a stake in Navantia.

AIP condition​

The key determinant to qualify for P-75I is the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system. The P-75I process ran into rough weather, among other issues, over the specification that the submarine on offer should have an operationally proven AIP module with an endurance of two weeks. In addition, manufacturers had also raised the issue of unlimited liability on them, some of which have since been addressed by the Defence Acquisition Council, but yet to be fully resolved, according to sources. The AIP condition meant only two manufacturers were left in the race.

The AIP on offer by the TKMS has both fuel cell as well as Lithium-Ion battery, giving it enhanced performance, one of the sources said. The fuel cell gives long range endurance at low speed while Lithium-Ion battery offers high endurance at higher speed, the source said, elaborating, while stating that it’s a fourth generation AIP with the technology having matured since first developed three decades ago.

An AIP module acts as a force multiplier as it enables conventional submarines to remain submerged for longer duration, thereby significantly enhancing the endurance while reducing chances of detection, as submarines are most prone to be spotted when they surface. An indigenous AIP module under development is set to be installed on the Scorpene submarines as they go for refit end this year or early next year onwards.

As reported by The Hindu earlier, Germany has presented a Government-to-Government (G-to-G) proposal to India for the sale of submarines under P-75I, and a senior German delegation was in Delhi in January for discussions. Sources said the German government is expected to continue talks on the G-to-G proposal in the next few weeks.

India and Germany discussed the deal at the highest level during the visit of German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius in June 2023, during which he made a strong pitch for the bid by the TKMS in his talks with Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

MDL has in the 1980s manufactured two of the four older German HDW Type 209 submarines still in service with the Indian Navy.
 
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The DAC is the decision making body which includes , Raksha Mantri , CDS, COAS, CNS, CAS, Defense Secretary, Secretary DDP, Secretary DRD, Secretary defense Finance , Vice chief of defense staff, Special secretary ( acquisition)

In almost all decision making the three chiefs, CDS are present.


And in acquisition wing there will always be a two star rank officer from forces present along with a JS.

In think the forces understand that they don't have the money.

The forces can only influence the priority list. They can't do much else. So yeah, they are present, but you can see how many civilians are also present to overule them.
 
The forces can only influence the priority list. They can't do much else. So yeah, they are present, but you can see how many civilians are also present to overule them.
The election trend is showing either BJP will lose or come up with reduced majority. Both scenarios will derail alrederailed mmrca,p75I programs.