Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 12 38.7%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 6 19.4%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 13 41.9%

  • Total voters
    31
Just make them partner with Indian companies to integrate DRDO AIP. Everyone wins.

Except DRDO AIP is also unproven.

We can integrate to prove it, but we are further along on those negotiations with NG than anyone else - they've already agreed to integrate our AIP on Scorpene.

If P75I is going to run with Indian AIP anyway, then it makes zero sense not to go for just 6 more Scorpenes.

There's nothing the other contenders bring to the table that Scorpene doesn't, other than a fuel cell AIP. Except for complicating the supply chain (which, in Scorpene's case is already largely indigenized) and increase cost for no reason at all.
 
Except DRDO AIP is also unproven.
It is already contracted to be integrated into Scorpians by L&T.

If P75I is going to run with Indian AIP anyway, then it makes zero sense not to go for just 6 more Scorpenes.

There's nothing the other contenders bring to the table that Scorpene doesn't, other than a fuel cell AIP. Except for complicating the supply chain (which, in Scorpene's case is already largely indigenized) and increase cost for no reason at all.

The reason for this separate tender is because of different requirements compared to P75. NG withdrew from the tender because they do not have the specifications that the tender requests, such as displacement, range, and AIP.

This type of statement implies that the Indian Navy is incapable of recognizing the simple reasons why this new tender is unnecessary. Follow-on order of 3 Kalvari submarines contradicts it.
 
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It is already contracted to be integrated into Scorpians by L&T.

That's not the IN's definition of 'proven'.

The reason for this separate tender is because of different requirements compared to P75. NG withdrew from the tender because they do not have the specifications that the tender requests, such as displacement, range, and AIP.

This type of statement implies that the Indian Navy is portrayed as incapable of recognizing the simple reasons why this new tender is unnecessary. Follow-on order of 3 Kalvari submarines contradicts it.

All of that is negated if & when we are ready to accept integration of DRDO AIP into 75I.
 
That's not the IN's definition of 'proven'.
It can be if there willing to wait for S80's AIP to mature as the article says.

All of that is negated if & when we are ready to accept integration of DRDO AIP into 75I.
No it wont. Requirement wont magically change to smaller submarine. S80 and C212CD have significantly bigger hull compared to past SSK offerings like Scorpene or Lada class.
 
It can be if there willing to wait for S80's AIP to mature as the article says.

It's just time-pass, same as MRFA. There's zero intent to actually see this deal through.

No it wont. Requirement wont magically change to smaller submarine. S80 and C212CD have significantly bigger hull compared to past SSK offerings like Scorpene or Lada class.

Where does it say there's a minimum displacement requirement?

I thought TKMS offer was the 214?

Type 214 is roughly the same displacement as Scorpene, and that's including AIP.
 
Where does it say there's a minimum displacement requirement?
It has been reported as such. Why did the other contenders drop out? German, Spanish and Koreans, all had submarines of that size to offer. All 75 meter above.


I thought TKMS offer was the 214?
No, they reengaged last year after revising their arms control laws, and the Koreans dropped out. Most likely, the offer is something closer to Type 212CD.

Type-212CD-Submarine-Scale-Drawing-770x410.jpg.webp
 
I thought TKMS offer was the 214?
214. There is no 212CD on offer.
No, they reengaged last year after revising their arms control laws, and the Koreans dropped out. Most likely, the offer is something closer to Type 212CD.
It was some journalist wanking off. They have offered the 214. They will not agree for production of the 212CD which is their advanced sub. Hell, they are not ready to share non magnetic steel tech of 212. Max they will offer would be the SG variant of the 214. Its basically an evolution of the Shishumar class that they are offering us

any updates on this? @vstol Jockey
 
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214. There is no 212CD on offer.

It was some journalist wanking off. They have offered the 214. They will not agree for production of the 212CD which is their advanced sub. Hell, they are not ready to share non magnetic steel tech of 212. Max they will offer would be the SG variant of the 214. Its basically an evolution of the Shishumar class that they are offering us

any updates on this? @vstol Jockey
That was pre 2022, they revised their laws to allow exports. Otherwise this contest dont make any sense.
This left only the Germans and Koreans in the fray. While the Koreans had not shown much interest in the deal, Indian authorities were in constant touch with the Germans for the programme. Sources claim even the Germans had certain objections to the contractual clause and technical parameters. However, probably with the intervention of the German government, TKMS agreed to bid. Moreover, the German government has revised its arms control laws.
 
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It has been reported as such. Why did the other contenders drop out? German, Spanish and Koreans, all had submarines of that size to offer. All 75 meter above.

They dropped out because they did not have a fuel-cell AIP at sea. And some that did, did not control its IP so couldn't do ToT (like Koreans using German solution).

No, they reengaged last year after revising their arms control laws, and the Koreans dropped out. Most likely, the offer is something closer to Type 212CD.

Type-212CD-Submarine-Scale-Drawing-770x410.jpg.webp

A modified 214 is likely, but it wont be all that different to Scorpene in terms of displacement once you factor in AIP. CD offer is very unlikely.

CD isn't a sub like any other, it's a pressure hull that's encased in an outer hull designed for deflecting sonar pulses at the cost of sacrificing hydrodynamic efficiency. That's where most of its additional weight comes from.

It's a very unique design for a unique use-case in the cold waters of Northern Europe. It will never be offered to us.
 
They dropped out because they did not have a fuel-cell AIP at sea. And some that did, did not control its IP so couldn't do ToT (like Koreans using German solution).
The naval group already has a fuel-cell AIP.


A modified 214 is likely, but it wont be all that different to Scorpene in terms of displacement once you factor in AIP. CD offer is very unlikely.

CD isn't a sub like any other, it's a pressure hull that's encased in an outer hull designed for deflecting sonar pulses at the cost of sacrificing hydrodynamic efficiency. That's where most of its additional weight comes from.

It's a very unique design for a unique use-case in the cold waters of Northern Europe. It will never be offered to u
Type 212CD is the one offered to Netherlands. No reason to not offer us.

“The Type 212CD E design proposed for the Netherlands shares the same core systems and components as the CD in order to manage risk,” said Isbrecht. “The pressure hull diameter is also the same.
“The difference lies in a hull insert to increase fuel capacity for longer endurance, and improve accommodation space for extended missions. The result is a slightly larger submarine of just over 80 m length and about 3,000 tonnes displacement.”
 
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The naval group already has a fuel-cell AIP.


Again, this is NOT what IN considers as proven. It needs to be operational on an actual boat.

Even our AIP has already undergone shore-based testing representative of real conditions, but IN doesn't count that.

It's just another ridiculous convoluted requirement, designed to make the contract as unviable for healthy competition as possible.

Type 212CD is the one offered to Netherlands. No reason to not offer us.

Dutch have the same operating environment as Germany, makes sense to offer them.
 
"The AIP clause demands a certain level of technology, currently possessed only by German submarines. Navantia has been working to master this technology.
To ensure fairness and avoid legal hurdles arising from a single vendor situation, the Indian government may delay acquisition until Navantia develops the AIP technology, thereby maintaining a level-playing field among the contenders. Navantia’s struggle to meet the AIP criteria is therefore a significant obstacle to P75(I)."

Naval Group won in Netherlands because of new li-ion battery. What kind of new battery? I don't know, but they won against a german offer...
It seems that this combo offer a vast improvement against AIP solution : more range & autonomy than with AIP. A kind of mid term between SSK and SSN...

If true, is it impossible to see a Li ion solution to compete ?
 
(…)Dutch have the same operating environment as Germany, makes sense to offer them.
i agree with the rest of your messages but this sentence, i don’t:
German navy operates mainly into the baltic (ie: coastal) sea.
The Netherlands has overseas territories and therefore needs ocean-going submarines. That's why they chose the French offer. The German offer was the least favourable.
 
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"The AIP clause demands a certain level of technology, currently possessed only by German submarines. Navantia has been working to master this technology.

Naval Group won in Netherlands because of new li-ion battery. What kind of new battery? I don't know, but they won against a german offer...
It seems that this combo offer a vast improvement against AIP solution : more range & autonomy than with AIP. A kind of mid term between SSK and SSN...

If true, is it impossible to see a Li ion solution to compete ?

From what I know, the presence of LIBs in addition to the Fuel Cell AIP was always a requirement in P75I:


i agree with the rest of your messages but this sentence, i don’t:
German navy operates mainly into the baltic (ie: coastal) sea.
The Netherlands has overseas territories and therefore needs ocean-going submarines. That's why they chose the French offer. The German offer was the least favourable.

The Germans put their best foot forward but as you said, the French offer won because it was more suitable.

And if the CD couldn't even convince the Dutch to take it over the NG offer, I really doubt it could convince India.
 


I would again say, best course of action is buy 6 more Scorpenes. Then buy 12 hulls of Barracuda from NG, use your own AIP Fuel Cell or French Fuel Cell (they have a working TD). And then work with NG to design an indigenous P76.

The current Scorpene design is not sufficient.

The French are in the same boat as the Spanish, their AIP is not proven either. And the Barracuda-class is freaking expensive, we can't even afford three hulls this decade.

The only real answers are SoKo and Japan with Germany being a political hot potato.

P76 is pretty much an independent program. Not much is gonna happen anytime soon. Just paper design and sit around looking at it until P-75I and P-75A progress.
 
Except DRDO AIP is also unproven.

We can integrate to prove it, but we are further along on those negotiations with NG than anyone else - they've already agreed to integrate our AIP on Scorpene.

If P75I is going to run with Indian AIP anyway, then it makes zero sense not to go for just 6 more Scorpenes.

There's nothing the other contenders bring to the table that Scorpene doesn't, other than a fuel cell AIP. Except for complicating the supply chain (which, in Scorpene's case is already largely indigenized) and increase cost for no reason at all.

Scorpene is like LCA. We need Rafale-class. That's via an 8m beam. More fuel, more weapons, larger sensors etc.

Even during the previous decade Scorpenes were deemed insufficient even as they were coming in, even with AIP. So what's to say of the next decade. It's a class issue. Top officers rated the uprated Kilo class over the Scorpene. So I'd actually argue for stopgap secondhand Kilos that can be upgraded pretty quickly. The Russians offered 3 hulls for cheap, can last 10 years. I won't be surprised if it's taken up at this point.
 
The Germans put their best foot forward but as you said, the French offer won because it was more suitable.

And if the CD couldn't even convince the Dutch to take it over the NG offer, I really doubt it could convince India.

We don't necessarily have the same requirements.

I don't think we should go beyond what the IN has put forth with respect to AIP. So no AIP, no soup, no matter how much our insignificant opinions go against that.
 
Scorpene is like LCA. We need Rafale-class. That's via an 8m beam. More fuel, more weapons, larger sensors etc.

Even during the previous decade Scorpenes were deemed insufficient even as they were coming in, even with AIP. So what's to say of the next decade. It's a class issue. Top officers rated the uprated Kilo class over the Scorpene. So I'd actually argue for stopgap secondhand Kilos that can be upgraded pretty quickly. The Russians offered 3 hulls for cheap, can last 10 years. I won't be surprised if it's taken up at this point.

If we want a hi-lo mix of subsurface combatants, the best way is Scorpene (with DRDO AIP) on low end & SSNs on high end.

The plan for 12 conventional foreign-design SSKs (6+6) was formulated way back in the 90s. P75I and its iterations have been around since at least 2008 in RFI form. Back then we had very little confidence in our nuclear submarine-building capacity as everything was unproven & nascent. We could not risk putting eggs in that basket for attack sub needs.

16 years later, everything is changed. Not only can we now build N-subs, we have absorbed the ability to redesign & certify modifications to hulls to suit our needs (e.g. stretched S4).

We can now realistically pursue a domestic SSN program and that's what we're doing.

As per current timeline it will be 2030 before first steel for P75I is cut, and closer to 2035 for first commissioning. But looks like we'll be waiting longer to even select a vendor so it'll realistically be late 2030s. We'll be either already inducting indigenous SSNs or close to inducting them by that point.

No matter how much more advanced a notional P75I can be compared to Scorpene, the indigenous SSN would still blow it out of the water. So P75I is useless as the 'Hi' part of hi-lo mix in the revised timeline, as such it's a waste of money to bring in a new platform...it's just that IN is yet to conduct a reassessment of the submarine plan at a high level like what was done in 90s.

The current P75I jhumla is just time-pass till they get around to doing that. But when they do, we're going to do to 75I exactly what the Aussies did to Attack-class program.

We don't necessarily have the same requirements.

I don't think we should go beyond what the IN has put forth with respect to AIP. So no AIP, no soup, no matter how much our insignificant opinions go against that.

All of our diesel subs (not counting the oldies) going forward will either come with FC AIP out of the box or be retrofitted with one, there's no question about that. Question is, which AIP it will be.

What are the odds the DRDO AIP will go to sea before the Spanish can get theirs 'ready'. And if we're ready to wait, why not wait for the indigenous solution instead - and evaluate P75I based on vendor's willingness to integrate it instead.
 
If we want a hi-lo mix of subsurface combatants, the best way is Scorpene (with DRDO AIP) on low end & SSNs on high end.

The plan for 12 conventional foreign-design SSKs (6+6) was formulated way back in the 90s. P75I and its iterations have been around since at least 2008 in RFI form. Back then we had very little confidence in our nuclear submarine-building capacity as everything was unproven & nascent. We could not risk putting eggs in that basket for attack sub needs.

16 years later, everything is changed. Not only can we now build N-subs, we have absorbed the ability to redesign & certify modifications to hulls to suit our needs (e.g. stretched S4).

We can now realistically pursue a domestic SSN program and that's what we're doing.

As per current timeline it will be 2030 before first steel for P75I is cut, and closer to 2035 for first commissioning. But looks like we'll be waiting longer to even select a vendor so it'll realistically be late 2030s. We'll be either already inducting indigenous SSNs or close to inducting them by that point.

No matter how much more advanced a notional P75I can be compared to Scorpene, the indigenous SSN would still blow it out of the water. So P75I is useless as the 'Hi' part of hi-lo mix in the revised timeline, as such it's a waste of money to bring in a new platform...it's just that IN is yet to conduct a reassessment of the submarine plan at a high level like what was done in 90s.

The current P75I jhumla is just time-pass till they get around to doing that. But when they do, we're going to do to 75I exactly what the Aussies did to Attack-class program.

The issue being Scorpene doesn't fulfill all mission requirements. It does not even meet lo of the hi-lo mix, never mind the fact that there is no hi-lo dealio here. The real hi component will be both SSKs and SSNs, and the lo component will come via UUVs.

Anyway, even new Scorpenes will take the same time as P75I, and comes with more risk due to France not having verified their own AIP. So we are screwed either way. With the exception of secondhand subs, Russian or European, there's not gonna be any submarine induction from 2025 to 2035.

All of our diesel subs (not counting the oldies) going forward will either come with FC AIP out of the box or be retrofitted with one, there's no question about that. Question is, which AIP it will be.

What are the odds the DRDO AIP will go to sea before the Spanish can get theirs 'ready'. And if we're ready to wait, why not wait for the indigenous solution instead - and evaluate P75I based on vendor's willingness to integrate it instead.

While I'd like to see P75I with DRDO's AIP, we need to go by what the IN wants, a risk-free import.