Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

Looking at IAf priorities, it’s not entirely impossible if they demand three engines in their next tenders, just for “Better Survivablity”, for Supercruise with One engine ‘On hold’ and for Supreme-cruise during running away for next AMRAAM Dodging rounds.

It’s a circus, I mean the whole whishlist and procurement process.

Nope. It's been a requirement since the 60s, since Marut.

Marut > Jaguar > MKI > Rafale > AMCA... all TEs. The requirement is already 60 years old.

Wishlists are only for superpowers with a capable MIC. We are not there yet. With India being a third rate power, there's not been a single instance in history of the IAF asking for something that's not been grounded in reality. The only ones creating stories about the IAF are those who are deliberately attacking the forces in general or don't really know what they are talking about. Even LCA was quite a modest undertaking before ADA introduced new technologies into it. AMCA was also a much simpler jet, without supercruise, limited stealth, until ADA stepped in to end FGFA and make AMCA a more advanced jet, following the footsteps of the LCA. Even when ADA was bragging about the LCA becoming available in the early 2000s back in the mid 90s, the IAF quietly got the Mig-21 upgraded to the Bison standard.

In 10-15 years we need the IAF to become what you are thinking of as a negative trait. Unfortunately the IN is also stuck in the same lane. Only the IA is creating wishlists like a superpower, since the MIC has more or less caught up with the technologies that land forces need, so they will likely be the first to fully indigenise.

You should be attacking the MIC instead. No matter what sort of wishlist the IAF makes, the industry should reach the point where they can deliver. Right now, they are incapable of delivering even what is considered normal.

 

[AbRaj]

Nope. It's been a requirement since the 60s, since Marut.

Marut > Jaguar > MKI > Rafale > AMCA... all TEs. The requirement is already 60 years old.

Wishlists are only for superpowers with a capable MIC. We are not there yet. With India being a third rate power, there's not been a single instance in history of the IAF asking for something that's not been grounded in reality. The only ones creating stories about the IAF are those who are deliberately attacking the forces in general or don't really know what they are talking about. Even LCA was quite a modest undertaking before ADA introduced new technologies into it. AMCA was also a much simpler jet, without supercruise, limited stealth, until ADA stepped in to end FGFA and make AMCA a more advanced jet, following the footsteps of the LCA. Even when ADA was bragging about the LCA becoming available in the early 2000s back in the mid 90s, the IAF quietly got the Mig-21 upgraded to the Bison standard.

In 10-15 years we need the IAF to become what you are thinking of as a negative trait. Unfortunately the IN is also stuck in the same lane. Only the IA is creating wishlists like a superpower, since the MIC has more or less caught up with the technologies that land forces need, so they will likely be the first to fully indigenise.

You should be attacking the MIC instead. No matter what sort of wishlist the IAF makes, the industry should reach the point where they can deliver. Right now, they are incapable of delivering even what is considered normal.

They should get a modern version of Mig 21 with better avionics, sensor suite and weapons and something that is cheaper to produce and easier to maintain.

IAF is already Top heavy force with Su 30s, Rafale (and later FGFA and AMCA in next decade ) eating up major chunk of their budget along with salaries and pensions will make the fund allotment between the three services even more disproportionate.
If Su30 is not enough for them, few additional MRCAs also will not make any significant change in power disparity vis China considering later flying not One but two Fifth gen platforms along with huge fleet of Locally built copies of Flankers and other types like J10s and Su 35s.

Right now Army is stuck with Cold War era weapons, gears and tactics, in absence of funds for modernisation. Even though it gets highest amounts, being oversized it does not have enough to Buy expensive foreign imports. OFBs being the Big failures as they are, also making matters worse.
These two eating out the majority of the defence spending means IN have to wait for critical things like SSN,SSBN , ACC and Aircrafts and Sub hunting assets like MPA and Helis.
Additionally the upcoming Rocket and Space Force will also need huge amount of money for setting up the basis manpower and infrastructure.

 

[Bon Plan]

With interest in the Typhoon renewing amongst the consortium, it will become a threat to the Rafale once again.

Not so much. Not after inducing 36 Rafale, before the time, on spec and on budget.

 

[randomradio]

They should get a modern version of Mig 21 with better avionics, sensor suite and weapons and something that is cheaper to produce and easier to maintain.

IAF is already Top heavy force with Su 30s, Rafale (and later FGFA and AMCA in next decade ) eating up major chunk of their budget along with salaries and pensions will make the fund allotment between the three services even more disproportionate.
If Su30 is not enough for them, few additional MRCAs also will not make any significant change in power disparity vis China considering later flying not One but two Fifth gen platforms along with huge fleet of Locally built copies of Flankers and other types like J10s and Su 35s.

The IAF need to be top heavy anyway. What they need is a cheaper high end jet than the MKI when it comes to sustainment, so that's where Rafale and AMCA come in. At the low end, they have already decided on the LCA.

Anyway, you can be sure the IAF know what they are doing when it comes to China getting next gen jets.

Right now Army is stuck with Cold War era weapons, gears and tactics, in absence of funds for modernisation. Even though it gets highest amounts, being oversized it does not have enough to Buy expensive foreign imports. OFBs being the Big failures as they are, also making matters worse.
These two eating out the majority of the defence spending means IN have to wait for critical things like SSN,SSBN , ACC and Aircrafts and Sub hunting assets like MPA and Helis.

Both our enemies do not have very sophisticated land weapons though, even they need to make the same transition.

Additionally the upcoming Rocket and Space Force will also need huge amount of money for setting up the basis manpower and infrastructure.

That's a long time away. By the time a rocket force is established, most of the modernisation will be well underway. The economy will reflect the investment needed for it by then.

 

[AbRaj]

The IAF need to be top heavy anyway. What they need is a cheaper high end jet than the MKI when it comes to sustainment, so that's where Rafale and AMCA come in. At the low end, they have already decided on the LCA.

All our roads end with indigenisation be it AMCA or LCA mk2. We can’t import expensive stuff in sufficient quantities required to confront a foe like China and its proxies simultaneously.

Both our enemies do not have very sophisticated land weapons though, even they need to make the same transition.

Chinese are modernising pretty fast though. Our armoured fleet is hopelessly underpowered and underarmoured compared to modern Chinese tanks and SPH.
Even there infantry equipment is getting upgraded as we speak , with modern rifle, reflex sights, comms and body armour upgrades.

 

[randomradio]

All our roads end with indigenisation be it AMCA or LCA mk2. We can’t import expensive stuff in sufficient quantities required to confront a foe like China and its proxies simultaneously.

Actually we can. When it comes to the air force, we can completely depend on imports to fight any war. It's just a little more expensive. The real problems for imports are very specific bureaucratic, political and economic hurdles that only indigenisation can solve, but none of them affect warfighting capabilities unless the supplier creates problems.

Regardless of whether the stuff we use is Indian or not, we can't fight a war of annihilation against a country like China using conventional forces, we simply don't have that kind of money. But for anything below that, imports are fine. Many of our high end capabilities will still be imported for quite some time.

Chinese are modernising pretty fast though. Our armoured fleet is hopelessly underpowered and underarmoured compared to modern Chinese tanks and SPH.
Even there infantry equipment is getting upgraded as we speak , with modern rifle, reflex sights, comms and body armour upgrades.

The T-90s are still very good, battle proven tanks, not much different from Chinese tanks. And the new SPHs from Korea are way better than what they use. Our infantry is getting upgrades too. Only their IFVs are better than our old BMPs, mainly 'cause our FICV program is delayed, but it's still a headache for other countries, not India. So when it comes to the army, they are ahead in terms of investment, but we are gonna catch up, especially the infantry. When it comes to next gen stuff, we are more or less on par. You can actually bet that pretty much none of what they operate today will actually meet IA's requirements.

Historically, our air force, navy and army were always ahead technologically when it came to core warfighting capabilities. The Chinese have managed to catch up or overtake in some areas with their financial advantage, but it's not a lot. They definitely have numbers though.

 

[Amarante]

India fines French firm Dassault Aviation over offset delays

The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a 2016 deal for 36 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Tatvamasi]

India fines French firm Dassault Aviation over offset delays

The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a 2016 deal for 36 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned.

www.defensenews.com

NEW DELHI — The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a 2016 deal for 36 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned.

The French and Indian governments signed the €7.8 billion (U.S. $8.8 billion) contract in September 2016. Under the arrangement, 50% of the contract value was to be offset and executed by Dassault Aviation and its partners Safran and Thales in seven years’ time.

To implement the offsets, the three firms teamed with more than 70 Indian companies and the Defence Research and Development Organisation. A senior defense scientist in India said DRDO is seeking from French businesses several technologies related to stealth capabilities, radar, aerospace engines, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics.

An Indian Ministry of Defence official told Defense News that the penalty will come from the €185 million bank guarantee funded by Dassault Aviation as a safeguard against contractual violations. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to speak to the media.

The official would not share the value of the penalty imposed on Dassault Aviation, nor would the individual detail problems hindering implementation of the offset obligations.

Under MoD policy, original equipment manufacturers can discharge offsets by purchasing related goods or services from Indian suppliers, by making a foreign direct investment in India’s defense industry, or by transferring advanced technology.

When asked for comment, the French Armed Forces Ministry referred Defense News to Dassault Aviation, which did not return requests for comment.

French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly and Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh met Dec. 17 to discuss ways to increase bilateral defense cooperation. During the 3rd annual dialogue, the MoD pointed out that several French defense companies were not cooperating in the transfer of technology to DRDO.

The MoD source said French businesses have been claiming the Indian firms who were expecting to receive technology transfers do not meet the necessary core competencies.

“It is well known that the original equipment manufacturers have been facing difficulty in discharging their offset obligations. This may partly be on account of the policy,” said Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for acquisitions at the MoD.

He recommended the ministry meet with OEMs, ascertain difficulties their facing and then take corrective action.

 

[Innominate]

IAF should cut their losses und learn from Swiss und Finns why french plane was rejected. I guess it's too late now and are stuck with a very expensive 4th gen fighter.

 

[randomradio]

IAF should cut their losses und learn from Swiss und Finns why french plane was rejected. I guess it's too late now and are stuck with a very expensive 4th gen fighter.

We want stuff that works today, not in some far away future. The opportunity for the US to sell the F-35 or NGAD to India will come in the future, when Su-57 comes into play and the US needs to make a counter offer.

 

[Hydra]

We want stuff that works today, not in some far away future. The opportunity for the US to sell the F-35 or NGAD to India will come in the future, when Su-57 comes into play and the US needs to make a counter offer.

F35,may be in future. NGAD highly unlikely. Its like we are anticipating f22 offer in early 2000s.

 

[randomradio]

F35,may be in future. NGAD highly unlikely. Its like we are anticipating f22 offer in early 2000s.

It's up to the US. 'Cause the F-35 will lose to the Su-57.

 

[Innominate]

It's up to the US. 'Cause the F-35 will lose to the Su-57.

Lol. What? In what world of yours will the F-35 lose to an inferior fighter like the SU-57?

Let me guess what your answer will be.... speed and agility?

NGAD will not be for export because like the F-22 they are not making its guts with a high security protection in mind like
they did with the F-35.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Lol. What? In what world of yours will the F-35 lose to an inferior fighter like the SU-57?

Let me guess what your answer will be.... speed and agility?

NGAD will not be for export because like the F-22 they are not making its guts with a high security protection in mind like
they did with the F-35.

Anyway, India is not for you, because you will never be able to twist their arm, which is your favorite sales method.

 

[Bon Plan]

Lol. What? In what world of yours will the F-35 lose to an inferior fighter like the SU-57?

Let me guess what your answer will be.... speed and agility?

NGAD will not be for export because like the F-22 they are not making its guts with a high security protection in mind like
they did with the F-35.

It's a clear confession F35 is a 2ng rank weapon.

 

[RISING SUN]

L'INDE TESTERA DÈS JANVIER LA VERSION "MARINE" DU RAFALE

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

INDIA TO TEST THE "MARINE" VERSION OF THE RAFALE FROM JANUARY

Pascal Samama On 16/12/2021 at 6:21 am

On her third trip to India, Florence Parly will meet members of the Indian government to discuss contracts for nearly 160 Rafales, including about fifty for the Navy.

The Aukus pact between the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom has created tensions, but strengthens alliances in the Indo-Pacific region. On Thursday, Florence Parly will travel to India to meet with the Indian Defence Cabinet, comprising the Prime Minister and the Ministers of Defence, External Affairs and Finance.

It will of course be a question of geostrategy. "India has its eyes riveted on Afghanistan, is worried about the Chinese position and has tense relations with Pakistan," explained the Ministry of Defence, adding that this meeting will also be an opportunity to discuss arms contracts, with priority given to the Rafale.

Two contracts are under discussion. One is for 114 Rafales for the Air Force, the second for "26 to 57 Rafales in the Navy version," the Ministry of the Armed Forces told us. These aircraft will start landing tests in January in Goa, on the south-west coast of the country. In 2022, the second Indian aircraft carrier will be operational. A third should be operational by 2025.

Facing Boeing's F-18

For these contracts, Dassault is up against two American manufacturers. Lockheed Martin for the F-35 for the Air Force. For the navy, it will be Boeing with the F-18, for which tests have already taken place in December. No timetable has been given for the conclusion of these negotiations. "The Indian government is the master of the clocks", the Ministry of Defence said, adding that this type of contract requires "many meetings".

France has already concluded a contract with India in 2016 for 36 Rafales, the 33rd of the series of which was delivered in December. The last three will be delivered in 2022.

Florence Parly is also expected to discuss other armament issues. One of them will be submarines. The Indian government intends to acquire 6 nuclear attack submarines. Naval Group is in the running with the Barracuda. The competition will be tough. If the Americans do not seem to be in the picture, the Frenchman has four rivals: the Spanish Navantia, the German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the Russian Rubin and the Korean Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering.

India is already a customer of Naval Group with an order for six Scorpene class submarines, the third of which has just been delivered.

Lots of holes in this article.
1. "Third carrier should be operational from 2025."
2. F35 for the airforce.
3. Indian government intends to acquire 6 SSNs. Naval group is running with Barracuda.

Let's dissect the points.
Third carrier is still in planning and not expected to approve in very near future. Hence no chance of third carrier getting operational by 2025 "untill French navy exports Charles D'Gaulle carrier to Indian Navy".

F21 aka F16, F15 and F18 variants are offered till now, not a peep on F35, hence incorrect.

Indian Navy does intends to acquire SSNs six boats however those are going to be built in India itself by Indian shipyard, most probably based on SSBN. What Naval group is offering is about project 75-I SSK with land attack and VLS equipped boats. However if news is talking about Barracuda as Pure SSN to Indian Navy, then it's speculative at its best. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[RISING SUN]

No, it looked at cost and "security of supply"; and I'm pretty sure it's on that latter point the Rafale got disqualified because of a comparatively much smaller global fleet as well as the lack of American air-to-air missiles integrated. I think the Gripen managed to get through this due to the promise from Sweden that they'd share their whole stock.

It's speculative opinion.

 

[lcafanboy]

IAF should cut their losses und learn from Swiss und Finns why french plane was rejected. I guess it's too late now and are stuck with a very expensive 4th gen fighter.

Someone's back on fire, Oooh it pains so much.....

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

It's speculative opinion.

Normal, Rafale got kicked out in the first round which only looked at costs, is also speculative opinion.

 

[randomradio]

Lol. What? In what world of yours will the F-35 lose to an inferior fighter like the SU-57?

Let me guess what your answer will be.... speed and agility?

NGAD will not be for export because like the F-22 they are not making its guts with a high security protection in mind like
they did with the F-35.

The Americans are free to think whatever they want. They tried the same by offering the Patriot and THAAD in lieu of the S-400 and failed.

As for NGAD, whether they want to export it or not is an American problem. But if they plan to stop India's purchase of the Su-57 with the F-35, then that's going to be a very big uphill battle.

I'll state it again. While I do not know what sort of decision the IAF will make, right now no one in the world knows where the US, French and Russians stand better than the IAF. IAF was deeply involved in the design of the FGFA and the procurement of Rafale, while have repeatedly been given presentations and demonstrations by the Americans on the F-35, and also have exercised with the F-22. While everybody is guessing each other's capabilities and next moves, the IAF knows quite well what the future of fighter jet tech is for the next 20 years at the very least. So you can wait and see what they decide on your own.