Reliance Naval’s eligibility question holds up warship orders worth Rs 63,000 crore (Rs 630 billion)

[Milspec]

That's fine. That's why I told you to look at the 5 ships as a whole, and not just look at one ship.

RNEL's project being a navy program is much more complex than the Coast Guard's OPV program.

is it really.

The tender bid cost, which is a national secret, not their annual report.

That is irrelevant, any company can quote anything. There are multiple instances where to keep competition out of a strategic client, we will quote at cost with zero margin. That is completely an individual company's mandate.

Why do they need debt? All I'm saying is they are being given guaranteed contracts.

You were the one who claimed guaranteed debt servicing , where no debt exists.

DPSUs don't have to raise money by themselves, get guaranteed contracts, and then make their money using cost and time overruns.

More BS. DPSU when needed have to raise money, which includes IPO's Right issues, and Debt.

Private companies have to raise money through debt, and then compete with something like 10% of all contracts.

That is a MoD issue. Let RM answer to that.

Can't help it. No one else is grabbing international attention as they are.

The Russians chose Reliance, then the govt had to force the Russians to switch to GSL for the frigates. The Americans chose them for their 7th Fleet. The French chose them for both Mistral and the Rafale.


Hell, the French are interested in cooperating with Reliance for P-75I as well, until the govt decided to nominate MDL instead.

"The private shipyards must be allowed to compete. But having said that, unless the private sector shipyards deliver on their existing orders of simple ships, there can be very little ground to trust them to deliver complicated warships."- Sujeet Samaddar, retired Indian Navy commodore

Even for the K-226 and S-400, the Russians chose Reliance over any other company. The Ka-226 was handed over to HAL because the govt refused to nominate Reliance for the program, because the govt doesn't nominate private companies (the irony). And the S-400 deal was scrapped because the govt decided to remove the offsets component in it.

If they are attracting all the heavy-hitters, then they are doing something right.

Lets not confuse Modi Diktats with competence. Two are very different things. The bottom line is and remains Reliance has not delivered anything yet. It's management is a *censored*ing joke. and it has nothing to show for as competence.

RIL is practically bailing out RCom with the assets purchase and the exit of ADAG from Telecom.

Not it's not. It is buying Reliance infratels, (rcoms- tower business). Bailout means providing money for sustaining activities, please try this semantics game with someone else.

And RInfra is a large and profitable company. It's more than enough to sustain their defence forays.

How? where is the reserve?

Defence production is not expensive anyway.

And still RNEL is being declare a NPA, what a fking shame.

 

[randomradio]

I give up. I'm not contesting his claims anymore.Can wake up a guy who's asleep not someone pretending to be asleep. I leave the field open to you.You seem to have more patience than me. And I know someone who is blessed with Buddha like patience.Where's @Sancho when you need him?

I was actually about to end the discussion in case you had replied. Wanted to give you the last reply.

Let's see where this current problem with RNEL goes. As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be cancelled simply because I do not want the LHD to be re-tendered again. This is one of the few programs which is going specifically to the private industry.

 

[randomradio]

That is irrelevant, any company can quote anything. There are multiple instances where to keep competition out of a strategic client, we will quote at cost with zero margin. That is completely an individual company's mandate.

And that is the problem. It doesn't create a level playing field.

You were the one who claimed guaranteed debt servicing , where no debt exists.

Oh, so MDL and others started off after raising money on their own? The govt threw money at all the DPSUs and got them started or nationalised. And gave them orders based on nomination, not competition.

"The private shipyards must be allowed to compete. But having said that, unless the private sector shipyards deliver on their existing orders of simple ships, there can be very little ground to trust them to deliver complicated warships."- Sujeet Samaddar, retired Indian Navy commodore

But they need to be given enough smaller contracts first.

Not it's not. It is buying Reliance infratels, (rcoms- tower business). Bailout means providing money for sustaining activities, please try this semantics game with someone else.

It doesn't matter. RCom is exiting the business. RIL is buying useless junk to make that happen. The first tranche alone is 18k Cr.

By the time this ends, RCom's debt will only be 6kCr or so.

And still RNEL is being declare a NPA, what a fking shame.

Can't do anything without orders after all. Especially when projects are being handed over to DPSUs.

RInfra itself will be fighting for over 3L Cr in infrastructure projects over the next year. And the sale of Rel Energy to Adani has reduced its debt burden to 7kCr.
R-Infra’s debt down by ₹13,800 cr

RInfra's credit profile improves; Crisil withdraws 'D' ratings

Basically, Anil doesn't want to give up on defence. My assumption is Anil is going to kick the promoters out of RNEL. Ambani sent out an arbitration notice to the promoters for 5440Cr.
Reliance Infra slaps ₹5,440 cr. notice on Pipavav founders

Something will come out of it.

 

[Amal]

Since my knowledge on the subject matter is limited, I'd refer this one to @Amal

I don't have much idea what he is talking about but you don't see L&T/Pipavav making high tech vessels such as LNG carriers/drillships, no ?

That said I hope someone capable buys our Reliance naval & turns it around.

 

[Milspec]

And that is the problem. It doesn't create a level playing field.

It's private sectors job to outbid the competition, nomination is a MOD issue, and the blame squarely lies on MoD.

Oh, so MDL and others started off after raising money on their own? The govt threw money at all the DPSUs and got them started or nationalised. And gave them orders based on nomination, not competition.

Yes , MDL raised it's own money from PSU banks that they paid back. Unlike ADAG

But they need to be given enough smaller contracts first.

And thats exactly what MoD did, and RNEL is messing that up bigtime.

It doesn't matter. RCom is exiting the business. RIL is buying useless junk to make that happen. The first tranche alone is 18k Cr.

It doesn't matter, ADAG ran Rcom to the ground, lost all of it;s mkt cap and lost all of it's shareholders money. That is what Anil Ambani's leadership reflects.

By the time this ends, RCom's debt will only be 6kCr or so.

By liquidating it's assets. Thats ADAG management for you

Can't do anything without orders after all. Especially when projects are being handed over to DPSUs.

And back to the thread, deliver the OPV's.

RInfra itself will be fighting for over 3L Cr in infrastructure projects over the next year. And the sale of Rel Energy to Adani has reduced its debt burden to 7kCr.
R-Infra’s debt down by ₹13,800 cr

And also downgrade its earnings as Mumbai power was the only profitable segment for rpower.

RInfra's credit profile improves; Crisil withdraws 'D' ratings

LMAO, are you boasting of a Crisil C rating.

Basically, Anil doesn't want to give up on defence. My assumption is Anil is going to kick the promoters out of RNEL. Ambani sent out an arbitration notice to the promoters for 5440Cr.
Reliance Infra slaps ₹5,440 cr. notice on Pipavav founders

I would love to understand more here, are you saying that Anil ambani is going to kick out Gandhi's (Original promoters) shareholding from RNEL, so he has more control, is that your contention?

 

[randomradio]

It's private sectors job to outbid the competition, nomination is a MOD issue, and the blame squarely lies on MoD.

They shouldn't be nominating in the first place.

Yes , MDL raised it's own money from PSU banks that they paid back. Unlike ADAG

MDL was nationalised. Sure, sovereign guarantees make it easy.

And thats exactly what MoD did, and RNEL is messing that up bigtime.

Starting troubles. Nothing particularly bad once the new design was finalised.

It doesn't matter, ADAG ran Rcom to the ground, lost all of it;s mkt cap and lost all of it's shareholders money. That is what Anil Ambani's leadership reflects.

Meh. CDMA was bound to fail. Same as the first design of the OPV. Mukesh should have chosen GSM, instead Anil had to invest again in GSM for 2G.

Even that they couldn't really afford back in 2006.
CDMA or GSM... RCL keeps them guessing

The Death of CDMA in India

Choosing CDMA was a huge failure on RCom's part.

And back to the thread, deliver the OPV's.

Time overruns, yes. But no cost overruns.

LMAO, are you boasting of a Crisil C rating.

It will rise up once RInfra becomes debt free next year, based on Anil's claims. Ratings don't stay the same forever.

I would love to understand more here, are you saying that Anil ambani is going to kick out Gandhi's (Original promoters) shareholding from RNEL, so he has more control, is that your contention?

One of these.

-RNEL wins LHD tender:
Continue as planned with the Gandhis. Expand at Rambilli.

-RNEL wins LHD tender:
Kick out the Gandhis and take over. Expand at Rambilli.

-RNEL loses LHD tender:
Build a new shipyard south of Rambilli.

Stage set to allot 1,000 acres for Reliance shipyard at Rambilli

Reliance’s Vizag project in limbo

This new facility will be specifically for naval ships, or so they say. So Rambilli's going to be a key shipyard for RNEL. So, whether the Gandhis stay or leave, or Pipavav finds a new buyer, RNEL will be going big with their shipbuilding plans.

As far as I'm concerned, I see a good future for Anil in defence. It will be RInfra's core sector.

 

[_Anonymous_]

As far as I'm concerned, I see a good future for Anil in defence. It will be RInfra's core sector.

God forbid if that ever happens. We'd be in trouble. Why? Because traders turned entrepreneurs can be classified into two classes 1 Those who actually make a transition over time into technocrats and all the connotations linked with such a term namely strategy & vision, innovation , best manufacturing techniques, enhanced R&D, excellent products refllecting top quality workmanship, a high degree of business ethics, etc.
2 your typical trader who's there to earn a fast buck by using state patronage to build up contacts followed by JV's with international defence contractors, churning out assembly line products, with zero R&D, no long term vision or strategy which in other words translate to most of the ills associated with our present DPSU's, in the long term.

Mukesh Ambani would figure in between both these categories.

You can guess in which category does Anilbhai fall into.

 

[Milspec]

T

One of these.

-RNEL wins LHD tender:
Continue as planned with the Gandhis. Expand at Rambilli.

-RNEL wins LHD tender:
Kick out the Gandhis and take over. Expand at Rambilli.

-RNEL loses LHD tender:
Build a new shipyard south of Rambilli.

Stage set to allot 1,000 acres for Reliance shipyard at Rambilli

Reliance’s Vizag project in limbo

This new facility will be specifically for naval ships, or so they say. So Rambilli's going to be a key shipyard for RNEL. So, whether the Gandhis stay or leave, or Pipavav finds a new buyer, RNEL will be going big with their shipbuilding plans.

As far as I'm concerned, I see a good future for Anil in defence. It will be RInfra's core sector.

Very interesting, is it some kind of Gandhi's Ghost that runs Pipavav, and where does this fantastic fairtale of kicking out or continuing with Non-Existent shareholders come from?

The original promoters of Pipapav defence do not hold any shares in RNEL.
https://www.rnaval.co.in/documents/1365184/1372032/SHP_30.06.2018.pdf

So please do substantiate which gandhi's ghost is Anil bhai chasing in reliance naval? So your entire narrative that you built around Anil bhai kicking out original promoters, and increasing his share in the company, what is that based upon again? what is the original promoter stake here again?

This is just too funny.

 

[randomradio]

Very interesting, is it some kind of Gandhi's Ghost that runs Pipavav, and where does this fantastic fairtale of kicking out or continuing with Non-Existent shareholders come from?

The original promoters of Pipapav defence do not hold any shares in RNEL.
https://www.rnaval.co.in/documents/1365184/1372032/SHP_30.06.2018.pdf

View attachment 3368

So please do substantiate which gandhi's ghost is Anil bhai chasing in reliance naval? So your entire narrative that you built around Anil bhai kicking out original promoters, and increasing his share in the company, what is that based upon again? what is the original promoter stake here again?

This is just too funny.

Reliance owns 36% of Pipavav while the Gandhis own 25+% or so.

 

[randomradio]

God forbid if that ever happens. We'd be in trouble. Why? Because traders turned entrepreneurs can be classified into two classes 1 Those who actually make a transition over time into technocrats and all the connotations linked with such a term namely strategy & vision, innovation , best manufacturing techniques, enhanced R&D, excellent products refllecting top quality workmanship, a high degree of business ethics, etc.
2 your typical trader who's there to earn a fast buck by using state patronage to build up contacts followed by JV's with international defence contractors, churning out assembly line products, with zero R&D, no long term vision or strategy which in other words translate to most of the ills associated with our present DPSU's, in the long term.

Mukesh Ambani would figure in between both these categories.

You can guess in which category does Anilbhai fall into.

Nobody can bring corruption into the MoD contracts.

And Anil's not going anywhere in defence if all he wants is manufacturing. Reliance is going into R&D also.
Reliance Defence to set up R&D centre for aerospace technology

 

[_Anonymous_]

Nobody can bring corruption into the MoD contracts.

And Anil's not going anywhere in defence if all he wants is manufacturing. Reliance is going into R&D also.
Reliance Defence to set up R&D centre for aerospace technology

That article's dated Jan 2016.How far has work progressed on that front? How many employees are gracing the R & D centre with their presence?

 

[randomradio]

That article's dated Jan 2016.How far has work progressed on that front? How many employees are gracing the R & D centre with their presence?

What's the hurry? Let Reliance start receiving large contracts first. Even Dassault's obligation for offsets is expected only in 2019.

 

[randomradio]

I don't have much idea what he is talking about but you don't see L&T/Pipavav making high tech vessels such as LNG carriers/drillships, no ?

That said I hope someone capable buys our Reliance naval & turns it around.

The way I see it, Pipavav's OPV contract started working out only after Reliance bought a stake.

 

[randomradio]

Here's an interesting picture:

There are three OPVs in the dry dock, but the other 2 ships that were launched are missing.

Which means, the other 2 ships are undergoing sea trials.

 

[Milspec]

Reliance owns 36% of Pipavav while the Gandhis own 25+% or so.

And more BS
Reliance owns 29.84% as of Sept 18.

this is share holders disclosure from Reliance Navals website:
https://www.rnaval.co.in/documents/1365184/1372032/SHP_30.06.2018.pdf

If promoter and promoter group holds 29.84% and public holds 70.16% Where is 25% Ghost Gandhi share holding coming from. If you are right then RNEL now is lying on thier SEBI disclosures too? Or your made up story is just fictional.

Next here are the majority share holders from RNEL's website:

Please do substantiate this Ghost shareholding by Gandhi's theory.

 

[randomradio]

And more BS
Reliance owns 29.84% as of Sept 18.

View attachment 3399

this is share holders disclosure from Reliance Navals website:
https://www.rnaval.co.in/documents/1365184/1372032/SHP_30.06.2018.pdf

View attachment 3400
View attachment 3401
If promoter and promoter group holds 29.84% and public holds 70.16% Where is 25% Ghost Gandhi share holding coming from. If you are right then RNEL now is lying on thier SEBI disclosures too? Or your made up story is just fictional.

Next here are the majority share holders from RNEL's website:

View attachment 3402
View attachment 3403
View attachment 3404
View attachment 3405
Please do substantiate this Ghost shareholding by Gandhi's theory.

Then they are all likely selling their stakes for working capital since the last time I checked. I don't follow such details anyway.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Reliance is expanding their shipbuilding business.

 

[randomradio]

And more BS
Reliance owns 29.84% as of Sept 18.

View attachment 3399

this is share holders disclosure from Reliance Navals website:
https://www.rnaval.co.in/documents/1365184/1372032/SHP_30.06.2018.pdf

View attachment 3400
View attachment 3401
If promoter and promoter group holds 29.84% and public holds 70.16% Where is 25% Ghost Gandhi share holding coming from. If you are right then RNEL now is lying on thier SEBI disclosures too? Or your made up story is just fictional.

Next here are the majority share holders from RNEL's website:

View attachment 3402
View attachment 3403
View attachment 3404
View attachment 3405
Please do substantiate this Ghost shareholding by Gandhi's theory.

Turns out the Gandhis have pledged all their shares to lenders.

SKIL Infra moves court against banks invoking pledged shares of Reliance Naval
On Monday, Reliance Naval informed the stock exchanges that the erstwhile promoters — Nikhil Gandhi and Bhavesh Gandhi — ceased to hold any equity shareholding in the company as on June 30, 2018.

Now the banks are threatening taking over those shares, leaving Reliance solely in charge. So I was right. Reliance is kicking out the Gandhis.

This is why the Gandhis's shares do not reflect in the balance sheets.

Now all Reliance has to do is buy back those shares. I'd recommend reading that article.

 

[Milspec]

Turns out the Gandhis have pledged all their shares to lenders.

SKIL Infra moves court against banks invoking pledged shares of Reliance Naval
On Monday, Reliance Naval informed the stock exchanges that the erstwhile promoters — Nikhil Gandhi and Bhavesh Gandhi — ceased to hold any equity shareholding in the company as on June 30, 2018.

Now the banks are threatening taking over those shares, leaving Reliance solely in charge. So I was right. Reliance is kicking out the Gandhis.

This is why the Gandhis's shares do not reflect in the balance sheets.

Now all Reliance has to do is buy back those shares. I'd recommend reading that article.

Now this is getting boring. When Reliance bought Pipavav, Gandhi's had already pledged their shares. And guess what even reliance is shares are fully pledged.
Even today, Anil ambani's holdings in Reliance Naval is 100% pledged.

With all due respect, you do not have a clue about what you are saying.

OT, do you know how Pledging of shares works?

“SKIL is not the owner of the company nor is it running the company, or a borrower. The lenders have given the approval for Reliance to become the new promoter of the company. Why should SKIL be penalized for the default of the company, which is now run by Reliance?"

 

[randomradio]

Now this is getting boring. When Reliance bought Pipavav, Gandhi's had already pledged their shares. And guess what even reliance is shares are fully pledged.
Even today, Anil ambani's holdings in Reliance Naval is 100% pledged.

View attachment 3406

View attachment 3407

With all due respect, you do not have a clue about what you are saying.

OT, do you know how Pledging of shares works?

“SKIL is not the owner of the company nor is it running the company, or a borrower. The lenders have given the approval for Reliance to become the new promoter of the company. Why should SKIL be penalized for the default of the company, which is now run by Reliance?"

It doesn't matter if Reliance have pledged their shares, they are the ones running Pipavav since 2015 as the promoters.

You tried to create a red herring by claiming you couldn't find their names on the shareholder pattern. Well, now you know why their names weren't in it. But even with pledged shares, until the bank takes over, the Gandhis are still the owners of their shares. Ain't no ghost shareholders around.

Both sides have sued each other, so let's see what happens there.

And, as I pointed out before, Pipavav started delivering on the navy's OPVs right after Reliance took over, in 2015, so Reliance is doing a good job. The sat pic I posted shows that those 2 new OPVs are in sea trials already. This is a pretty brilliant track record for a first timer.

And it still doesn't change the fact that Reliance is going for their own shipyard in Rambilli. They are here to stay, and they are here to stay for the long game.

 

[Milspec]

It doesn't matter if Reliance have pledged their shares, they are the ones running Pipavav since 2015 as the promoters.

Red Herring, dude are you not tired of embarrassing yourself?

This is to inform you that as on June 30, 2018, Shri Nikhil Gandhi, Shri Bhavesh Gandhi, SKIL Infrastructure Limited, SKIL Shipyard Holdings Private Limited and Grevek Investments and Finance Private Limited, ("Erstwhile Promoters} have ceased to hold any equity shareholding in the Company.

Further, as informed earlier, Shri Nikhil Gandhi and Shri Bhavesh Gandhi have already ceased to be Directors of the Company. Accordingly, the Erstwhile Promoters now do not have any representation on the Companys board.
Reliance Naval And Engineering Ltd - Equity Ownership Of Erstwhile Promoters In Reliance Naval And Engineering Limited

How much more BS do you want to peddle?

there is no Gandhis to kick out or to work with as you claimed earlier. There is no 25% stake of Gandhis as you claimed earlier, and Relaince doesn't own 36% of RNEL as you claimed either. Fact checking is easier than BS'ing, so might I suggest to cut it out,

You tried to create a red herring by claiming you couldn't find their names on the shareholder pattern. Well, now you know why their names weren't in it. But even with pledged shares, until the bank takes over, the Gandhis are still the owners of their shares. Ain't no ghost shareholders around.

Learn a bit and then post, what you are proposing is not how SEBI disclosures work. If your shares are pledged, doesn't mean you disappear from shareholding disclosures. As I said, you do not have a clue about what you are speaking of.
Now for "the Gandhis are still the owners of their shares.", read the highlighted part above, and read it a couple of times more so it sinks in.