Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Piecemeal orders. Albeit this is the first order of significant ones. Earlier we used to order 3, then 4 or another 3 of the same type with long delays in between. China builds 7 in one go in one config before going for minor or major upgrade with same base and orders another batch of 7. We should start following their same models. Their single shipyard is building 7 destroyers simultaneously. We have got to adapt and build ships at a faster rate. Time to try out Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine too.
Construction Of P17A Class Stealth Frigates Begins
Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, CWP&A, Laid The Keel Of The First Ship (Yard-12651) Of P17A Class Stealth Frigates Yesterday In The Presence Of Cmde Rakesh Anand, Chairman & Managing Director, MDL; Sanjiv Sharma, Director (Finance); And Senior Officials
V Adm D M Deshpande, CWP&A, Cmde Rakesh Anand (retd), CMD, MDL; and Sanjiv Sharma, director (finance), along with senior officers from MDL and Navy at the keel-laying ceremony
Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, CWP&A, laid the keel of the first ship (yard-12651) of P17A class stealth frigates yesterday in the presence of Cmde Rakesh Anand, chairman & managing director, MDL; Sanjiv Sharma, director (finance); and senior officials of MDL and Indian Navy.
Construction of P17A ships differs in the very concept of frontline warship building by way of adoption of modern technology of ‘Integrated Construction (IC) methodology’, where the blocks are pre-outfitted with pipes, etc, to reduce the build period of warships.
P17A warships are follow-on warships of the Shivalik class stealth frigates. Seven frigates in this series will be constructed, of which four will be constructed in MDL and three in GRSE with MDL as the lead yard. The P17A class frigates will have enhanced stealth features. These ships are being built using indigenously developed steel and fitted with state-of-the-art weapon and sensor systems along with advanced Integrated Platform Management System.
More at : Construction of P17A class stealth frigates begins
Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, CWP&A, Laid The Keel Of The First Ship (Yard-12651) Of P17A Class Stealth Frigates Yesterday In The Presence Of Cmde Rakesh Anand, Chairman & Managing Director, MDL; Sanjiv Sharma, Director (Finance); And Senior Officials
V Adm D M Deshpande, CWP&A, Cmde Rakesh Anand (retd), CMD, MDL; and Sanjiv Sharma, director (finance), along with senior officers from MDL and Navy at the keel-laying ceremony
Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, CWP&A, laid the keel of the first ship (yard-12651) of P17A class stealth frigates yesterday in the presence of Cmde Rakesh Anand, chairman & managing director, MDL; Sanjiv Sharma, director (finance); and senior officials of MDL and Indian Navy.
Construction of P17A ships differs in the very concept of frontline warship building by way of adoption of modern technology of ‘Integrated Construction (IC) methodology’, where the blocks are pre-outfitted with pipes, etc, to reduce the build period of warships.
P17A warships are follow-on warships of the Shivalik class stealth frigates. Seven frigates in this series will be constructed, of which four will be constructed in MDL and three in GRSE with MDL as the lead yard. The P17A class frigates will have enhanced stealth features. These ships are being built using indigenously developed steel and fitted with state-of-the-art weapon and sensor systems along with advanced Integrated Platform Management System.
More at : Construction of P17A class stealth frigates begins
Thats mini-Vishakapatnam class ship. The naval design institute is not learning anything from other shipbuilders.
8 anti-ship missile on this boat with more than 6 thousand tons of weight is wastage of space.
Unless they reserved the space for future additions. Look at the empty space on deck. I hope they are not that stupid to limit the missile load at current level. Even if they are planning to add Nirbhaya/Brahmos later, at least they could have added at least 8 more Baraks. There should be enough defense for a billion dollar ship. It's certainly not adequate with current numbers.
Thats mini-Vishakapatnam class ship. The naval design institute is not learning anything from other shipbuilders.
8 anti-ship missile on this boat with more than 6 thousand tons of weight is wastage of space.
Apart from that, the design does not look stealthy enough compared to other new generation vessels. They could have done better in that aspect.
Not sure what is the reason, but Shivalik, karmorta, kolkatta - vishakhapatnam all these classes seem lighty armed for their size. One of the heaviest ships to be classified a frigate - shivalik does not even have torpedo tubes.
We can only guess if it is by design for future upgrades, or design deficiency.
The thing is we are also building 7 ships. But 4+3. or 2+2+3. The new orders are always placed during execution or end of first order. We can save good amount of money if ordered at once, where integration can be delayed according to budget constraints at shipyard. Even Su30, we never ordered 270 in single go, even though AF wanted 300 and accepted by govt. Instead it was 40+140+70. What sort of Supply chain savings would be there if ordered piecemealsy/? As a result HAL produces only 12 Su30 PA due to these orders. If HAL was given an order of 270, it could be manufacturing 24 PA easily.
When the order for 140 Su-30 was being discussed, there was an article in ToI which complained that China is going to have almost 300+ flankers in few years time and India is still discussing about buying only 140!! That time our total budget was only 3-4 lakh crores. How could India place order for 270 Su-30s at one go? As our budget grows, India can place bigger orders as well. Issue is the price of defense equipment is growing at a much faster rate than our economy. I am not sure how long India can sustain these expensive imports, particularly the Air force!!
Course we can. In the end we spent more money on Su30 than China ever did. Due to piecemeal orders, Su30 made in India was costlier than in Russia. Its not like we are going to sanction 4 lakh crores in a single financial year. It will be divided into 10 years or less. Restarting an line is rather cumbersome and costly.
For example L&T makes wings. Now if you order piecemeal, after an order, they dismantle the workspace and do for other projects. When you order again, it again takes up setting up costs, raw material costs, its tax, logistics from raw material to delivery. Finally its more costly than ordering 300 in a single go.
I am not questioning the benefits of scale. But during early 2000s India just didn't have the capacity to go for huge orders. In 2003, if somebody had claimed that India is going to have tax base of 20 lakh crores in 2018, most people would have advised him some kind of psychological treatment
. Yet, it's the reality now!! It's easy to look back and suggest something. But that point of time even 140 appeared as a huge number.The cost of India made flankers is high due to high level of inefficiency in HAL. Even if you place double the order, you won't see much of a price difference. Sometime back I read an article about how expensive titanium blocks imported from Russia for Su-30, are wasted in HAL. Cost efficiency is the last thing any PSU cares about.
I am not questioning the benefits of scale. But during early 2000s India just didn't have the capacity to go for huge orders. In 2003, if somebody had claimed that India is going to have tax base of 20 lakh crores in 2018, most people would have advised him some kind of psychological treatment
The cost of India made flankers is high due to high level of inefficiency in HAL. Even if you place double the order, you won't see much of a price difference. Sometime back I read an article about how expensive titanium blocks imported from Russia for Su-30, are wasted in HAL. Cost efficiency is the last thing any PSU cares about.
HAL on its defence says, you cannot save costs on piecemeal orders. It does cost more in re-establishing supply chain everytime. However Govt should own only 60% of HAL shares and bring in private investors so they can improve on it, while at the same time, government can control HAL and strategic projects.
Looks like the P-17A is unaffected by the accident at GRSE.
GRSE strives to achieve milestones despite major accident - Times of India
Kolkata: Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) has said that it will achieve its milestones despite the setback suffered due to the accident at the main yard during the thunder squall on April 17.
Around 8 pm on April 17, when the wind speed reached its peak, a 250-tonne Goliath crane came crashing down on the modular hall and some work sheds. “Though some sheds and the modular hall did suffer structural damage, none of the vessels that were being built were affected. During the accident, there was a Landing Craft Utility for the Navy and two Fast Patrol Boats for the Coast Guard that were in various stages of completion. None of these were affected. Even the hull of a stealth frigate under the Navy’s 17A project that was kept in the modular hall was not damaged. We are now working on how to move our operations to our two other units,” a GRSE spokesperson said.
GRSE has been awarded the contract for three of the seven stealth frigates under Project 17A. The first ship, costing upward of Rs 4,000 crore, is expected to sail out by 2022.
By mid 2018-19, GRSE is also likely to bag orders for survey ships and a large number of shallow water ASW vessels. Officials are sniffing a conspiracy behind a media leak from anonymous sources that stated how operations at the shipyard have been crippled and important projects of the Navy will suffer delays because of the accident.
“Despite locational disadvantages such as shallow draft, we are bagging orders because of our performance. We are now competing with other shipyards, including private ones, to bag orders. Somebody may have taken this opportunity to tarnish our image,” an official said.
According to GRSE, the entire shipyard is under insurance cover and there will not be any set back financially.
GRSE strives to achieve milestones despite major accident - Times of India
Kolkata: Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) has said that it will achieve its milestones despite the setback suffered due to the accident at the main yard during the thunder squall on April 17.
Around 8 pm on April 17, when the wind speed reached its peak, a 250-tonne Goliath crane came crashing down on the modular hall and some work sheds. “Though some sheds and the modular hall did suffer structural damage, none of the vessels that were being built were affected. During the accident, there was a Landing Craft Utility for the Navy and two Fast Patrol Boats for the Coast Guard that were in various stages of completion. None of these were affected. Even the hull of a stealth frigate under the Navy’s 17A project that was kept in the modular hall was not damaged. We are now working on how to move our operations to our two other units,” a GRSE spokesperson said.
GRSE has been awarded the contract for three of the seven stealth frigates under Project 17A. The first ship, costing upward of Rs 4,000 crore, is expected to sail out by 2022.
By mid 2018-19, GRSE is also likely to bag orders for survey ships and a large number of shallow water ASW vessels. Officials are sniffing a conspiracy behind a media leak from anonymous sources that stated how operations at the shipyard have been crippled and important projects of the Navy will suffer delays because of the accident.
“Despite locational disadvantages such as shallow draft, we are bagging orders because of our performance. We are now competing with other shipyards, including private ones, to bag orders. Somebody may have taken this opportunity to tarnish our image,” an official said.
According to GRSE, the entire shipyard is under insurance cover and there will not be any set back financially.
