Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

Have to agree with @randomradio - as mention earlier - hopefully, the sanctioned strength for Frigates will be reached quicker with the addition of these 4 hulls.

But what are we arguing over here? At most 2-3 years. Is that worth it in the long term? The IN will have to live with the 11356s for 30+ years, if you are buying you need to get the best for the time. Already the 11356s feel outdated, this will be even moreso in 2022-4.

It will be very short sighted if the IN thinks the ability to add 4 more hulls of 11356 in the early/mid 2020s offsets it's capability defeicences.

IF there was customisation happening, IF these 11356 were going to have MFSTAR and LRSAM and HUMSA-NG then this would be a very different equation and this deal would be almost too good to turn down but the reality is they are a very very modest upgrade on the existing frigates. They aren't even coming with an integrated mast! Simply calling them "stealth frigates" doesn't mean much.

 

[Parthu]

Q: Where is the Torpedo Launch tubes for Both the P17 and P17A?

P17 does not carry any torpedoes. P17A is meant to, but its unclear what the launch mechanism will be like. Some old 3D animations of P17A had showcased non-moving tubes stored internally (unlike P15A tubes which are external) that pop-out torpedoes through the sides:

Similar to the setup on FREMM frigates:

But its unclear if this setup will indeed be seen all the way to fruition or if the design will change.

 

[randomradio]

Why not just give an Indian yard (GSL) and Indian design (17A) to make if that is your ambition? Have them start now so there can be 3 yards churning out 17As come 2023/4.

GSL has no experience building frigates. They have built nothing better than OPVs. The Russians will be holding their hands during the construction of the Talwars.

Let's assume they stick to schedule (which both MDL and GRSE have said they will recently).

They all claim that at the beginning of every project.

2022- first 17A (MDL), first 11356 (Yanter)
2023- second 17A (MDL), third 17A (GRSE), second 11356 (Yanter), third 11356 (GSL)
2024- fourth 17A (MDL), fifth 17A (GRSE), fourth 11356 (GSL)
2025- sixth 17A (MDL), seventh 17A (GRSE)

I would say the 3&4th 11356 from GSL in 2023/4 is VERY suspect considering no contract is signed even today, asking them to make them from scratch in 4 years (assuming deal signed in 2019) is a big ask.

All the dates are suspect. GSL's contract will be happening within 2 months though.

Where is the time saving really here? If you give GSL 17As to make now they can be delivered around the same time as the first 11356s from GSL are meant to be rolled out.

I'd say closer to 2030. DPSUs have never been as efficient as private companies. When it comes to a new project, you can always expect two to three times the time it takes for them to deliver anything.

I'm gonna assume GSL's 2 Talwars will come in only after 2025.

Out of all the shipyards involved, only MDL has the ability to stick to its schedule, and even that's a tall task. Just look up how long GRSE took to deliver the Kamorta class.

And this still doesn't address my question about capabilties @randomradio . Inducting ships in 2022-4 that are largely the same as what the navy Inducted more than a decade ago. The capability gap between the 11356s and 17As will be stark, it will actually be a very sad sight to see the celebrations about 11356 being inducted just after or around the excitement of the first 17A being rolled out.

That decade old difference is fine when it comes to shipbuilding. The Americans themselves are working with a 15 to 20 year difference between major configuration changes.

How? IA and IAF never asked for Ka-226.

Whatchu talking about? It was T1 in the main tender. It's like the Rafale, Ka-226T won the tender, the govt withdrew the tender and decided to ink a GTG instead.

The growth of the Indian Army's helicopter inventory - Saurav Jha’ Blog
Now the Ka-226T along with the Airbus Helicopter's AS 550 C3 Fennec had been downselected in the last tender having met the revised technical and operational parameters specified in it. So both the Ka-226T and AS 550 C3 in any case have qualified the IA's requirements for a RS helicopter that can be used for directing artillery fire, carry small body of troops/quick reaction teams for special missions, aerial photography, scouting roles in conjunction with AHs, airborne forward air controller (FAC) functions, casualty evacuation (CASEVAC), NBC monitoring, as a platform for ESM, ECM and ECCM etc and to provide dynamic response during aid to civil authorities.

Russia To Showcase Ka-226T Helos
The Ka-226T and Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec helicopter are currently the only contenders.

LUH is undergoing high and cold weather trails right now, IOC within the next 8 months, LSP in mid-2019. In fact the case for the more costly (to buy and operate) Ka-226 is going down every day, the deal would've made sense if in 2015 (when Modi govt announced it) it had been for 60-80 off the shelf helos with immediate delivery to meet emergency requirements. But here we are in 2018 and there is still no deal in sight, chances are high that the first LUH LSP will be handed over to the IAF/IA before the first Ka-226 (if it ever comes), Kamov/Russian helicopters has said they will deliever the off the shelf batch about a year/18 months after contract signature. IF (big if) contract is signed in early 2019 (very unlikely as there's no money towards the end of the FY and then election efforts will commence around mid-2019) the Ka-226 won't land in India before mid/late 2020.

The LUH and Ka-226T are not in competition with each other. It was always the plan to buy 2 types of light helicopters. The forces can't afford to ground the entire fleet in case of problems. Large portions of our infantry will get stranded without supplies on the mountains if that happened.

The total requirement was 384 and the contract was split between an import and LUH, 197 and 187 helicopters, for both the IA and IAF. It's the navy that doesn't want the Ka-226T in its current configuration. They have a separate tender called NUH.

 

[GuardianRED]

But what are we arguing over here? At most 2-3 years. Is that worth it in the long term? The IN will have to live with the 11356s for 30+ years, if you are buying you need to get the best for the time. Already the 11356s feel outdated, this will be even moreso in 2022-4.

It will be very short sighted if the IN thinks the ability to add 4 more hulls of 11356 in the early/mid 2020s offsets it's capability defeicences.

IF there was customisation happening, IF these 11356 were going to have MFSTAR and LRSAM and HUMSA-NG then this would be a very different equation and this deal would be almost too good to turn down but the reality is they are a very very modest upgrade on the existing frigates. They aren't even coming with an integrated mast! Simply calling them "stealth frigates" doesn't mean much.

Well we do know that 2 Hulls that are signed and confirmed are for existing unfinished ones at the Russian Shipyard and that the other 2 Hulls to be done at an Indian Shipyard will be signed later - Hopefully, these will have some design changes more suited (Hopefully)

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well we do know that 2 Hulls that are signed and confirmed are for existing unfinished ones at the Russian Shipyard and that the other 2 Hulls to be done at an Indian Shipyard will be signed later - Hopefully, these will have some design changes more suited (Hopefully)

No indication they will be modified for the IN and certainly won't be to the kind of standards the 17As will deliever- MFSTAR and BARAK-8 combo.

I find it rather shameful that the IN is accepting a FRIGATE without their mainstay LRSAM able to fire from it, this indicates this is a purely political deal.


Btw, GRSE laid the keel for their first 17A (yard number 3022) right on schedule, she will be ready for 2023.






I cannot get over the fact that the IN has only ordered 7 of these beasts, the ability to churn out 2 of them PER YEAR is a scale very very few nations on the planet have. India should tap this for at least a decade but as it stands all efforts will cease come 2025, then will the Navy cause another decade of indecsion before ordering their next class of frigates? The general rule of production is never to let capacity go idle, if the capacity is there let them keep churning them out. By 2030 the IN could have 17 P-17A, this is not something to be ignored.

I think the need for the 17As is growing as the destroyer project limps onwards, as it stands 7 P-15A/B by 2022-3, not a very impressive feat and the P-18 is nowhere to be seen. What the IN needs is numbers AND quality, 17A is the answer to their problems until 2030 when hopefully the P-18 and P-19(?) the next-gen frigates ) will be entering service.


Again, the MFSTAR, LRSAM (BARAK-8ER will soon be ready also), Brahmos along with one of the world's most advanced ASW suites is a devestating package.

Forget the 11356!

 

[GuardianRED]

No indication they will be modified for the IN and certainly won't be to the kind of standards the 17As will deliever- MFSTAR and BARAK-8 combo.

I find it rather shameful that the IN is accepting a FRIGATE without their mainstay LRSAM able to fire from it, this indicates this is a purely political deal.


Btw, GRSE laid the keel for their first 17A (yard number 3022) right on schedule, she will be ready for 2023.


View attachment 3590



I cannot get over the fact that the IN has only ordered 7 of these beasts, the ability to churn out 2 of them PER YEAR is a scale very very few nations on the planet have. India should tap this for at least a decade but as it stands all efforts will cease come 2025, then will the Navy cause another decade of indecsion before ordering their next class of frigates? The general rule of production is never to let capacity go idle, if the capacity is there let them keep churning them out. By 2030 the IN could have 17 P-17A, this is not something to be ignored.

I think the need for the 17As is growing as the destroyer project limps onwards, as it stands 7 P-15A/B by 2022-3, not a very impressive feat and the P-18 is nowhere to be seen. What the IN needs is numbers AND quality, 17A is the answer to their problems until 2030 when hopefully the P-18 and P-19(?) the next-gen frigates ) will be entering service.


Again, the MFSTAR, LRSAM (BARAK-8ER will soon be ready also), Brahmos along with one of the world's most advanced ASW suites is a devestating package.

Forget the 11356!

Though I still support the need to built up our numbers and getting these talwar class frigates will genuinely help in this BUT have to agree that we will be getting this hulls more for political reasons than anything else.

Apart from a member mentioning that there is a quota for a number of frigates. Does the IN have a authorize strength?
+
if we are able to increase and plan ahead for the P-19 and soon on - do we have the resources in both support and manpower to man these ships? . I do remember there was a report (not sure how true) that one of the reason in the delay in commissioning the INS Kolkata was they didn't have the numbers to man her

 

[Abingdonboy]

I do remember there was a report (not sure how true) that one of the reason in the delay in commissioning the INS Kolkata was they didn't have the numbers to man her

Training capacity is increasing across all IN training facilities but it's also likely that the next gen of ships will be more automated anyway requiring far less manpower to man them, already the Kolkata's have amongst the largest compliments of ships in their class mostly becuase the IN doesn't face the same labour shortages and costs as Western navies, as this begins to change they will follow the more automation route.

 

[randomradio]

Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.

By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.

Just gets more and more nonsensical.

None of those dates are realistic for anybody.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.

By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.

Just gets more and more nonsensical.

To begin with why are the lead times for these frigates as much as 6-7 years? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[chanakya]

With China's new fusion Aesa radar as on the new type 55 ddg... Even mfstar needs up gradation but let's look at the things that the Russian frigates offer

A good stealth profile which the navy is happy with
The new vls sthil Sam in 12 cell vls plus igla 1e srsams
8 cell Brahmos plus a 100 mm main gun
Twin ak 630 ciws
Twin torpedo launchers plus rbu 6000 anti sub rocket launchers
1 helo for anti sub/ recon purposes

This is a good small frigate and far more advanced than anything Pakistan can throw at us... In a two front war the SHIVALIKA can take on the eastern front with China and let the talwars handle pakistan

Also if we look at the cbg formation for iac Vikrant and Vikramaditya we will hopefully see

One aircraft carrier
One vishakhapatnam class ddg and one Kolkatta class ddg
One Shivalik class, one type 17a and two Talwar class frigates
One kamorta class corvette
One scorpene sub and two kilo class subs
Post 2025 we may add a Ssn to the cbg group
One replenishment ship

That makes for a strong and balanced cbg

We need 24 frigates and the new 11356 are better than the Godavari class they replace and also about a 150 million cheaper than the type 17a when you add the cost of armaments to the hull, baraks are far more expensive than sthil etc

 

[Parthu]

Photo of INS Shivalik taken by a French Navy Falcon 20:



@Bon Plan @Picdelamirand-oil Was this during an exercise or you spying on us?

 

[Bon Plan]

Photo of INS Shivalik taken by a French Navy Falcon 20:

View attachment 3751

@Bon Plan @Picdelamirand-oil Was this during an exercise or you spying on us?

a nice picture !
India is a friend of France, so no spying between us

 

[Valkyrja]

Photo of INS Shivalik taken by a French Navy Falcon 20:

View attachment 3751

Was this during an exercise or you spying on us?

During an exercise, Kakadu 2018 percisely. The drill was to see if MPAs could locate ships at sea with MV Asterix of the Royal Canadian Navy also taking part.

HMNZS Te Kaha at a distance.

NATO isn't above spying of course. Anyone remember when Norwegian Navy spy ship Marjata and a Norwegian Air Force P-3C snooped out INS Vikramaditya during sea trials?

It's just business.

 

[Amal]

INS Sahyadri at a distance.

That not INS Sahyadri

 

[randomradio]

That not INS Sahyadri

It is. F49.

 

[randomradio]

No, he's right. The twin stacks in the back ID it as HMNZS Te Kaha. I was in a hurry and wrote the wrong ship's name.

Indeed.

I saw the F49 on Parthu's image.

 

[Parthu]

NATO isn't above spying of course. Anyone remember when Norwegian Navy spy ship Marjata and a Norwegian Air Force P-3C snooped out INS Vikramaditya during sea trials?

It's just business.

Yes, I remember. Building a threat library of the ship's emissions (after the refit), I see.

Btw, can anyone tell me what is that line these three Talwar-class frigates (INS Trikand, Tabar & Teg) are dragging between them?

 

[Milspec]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068792902204051458

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068765667480891393

Armored recovery vehicle is usually code for kickbacks.

 

[Bon Plan]

During an exercise, Kakadu 2018 percisely. The drill was to see if MPAs could locate ships at sea with MV Asterix of the Royal Canadian Navy also taking part.

HMNZS Te Kaha at a distance.

NATO isn't above spying of course. Anyone remember when Norwegian Navy spy ship Marjata and a Norwegian Air Force P-3C snooped out INS Vikramaditya during sea trials?

It's just business.

No, no.
It's just to have some nice pics....

 

[Valkyrja]

Btw, can anyone tell me what is that line these three Talwar-class frigates (INS Trikand, Tabar & Teg) are dragging between them?

"Formation" or "distance" lines to keep them on an even heading during at-sea replenishment. The knots on the lines are placed at an equal distance and help the ships know where each other is, since replenishment underway is extremely difficult. It's hard to see in that picture, but F44 and F51 are conducting a replenishment. You can see their lines extended behind the forward VLS on either ship.

NATO generally uses anchor lines instead.