Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions
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No idea about ACTAS drdo track record is not good when it comes to towed sonar. Right now they are developing compact array for shallow water ships and submarines.
I think this is their first attempt at towed sonar. Overall they have delivered in the sonar front.
INS Shivalik (F47) in Indonesia. In the last few years the Navy has maintained a constant deployment of a Shivalik class frigate & a Kamorta class ASW corvette in rotation in the waters around South East Asia & the SCS.
The pattern is usually INS Shivalik with INS Kadmatt, INS Satpura with INS Kamorta & INS Sahyadri with INS Kiltan. They are often accompanied by Kora class missile boats (INS Kirch & INS Kulish most commonly), a fleet tanker (INS Shakti or INS Aditya) & often a destroyer (Rajput class or Kolkata class).
The pattern is usually INS Shivalik with INS Kadmatt, INS Satpura with INS Kamorta & INS Sahyadri with INS Kiltan. They are often accompanied by Kora class missile boats (INS Kirch & INS Kulish most commonly), a fleet tanker (INS Shakti or INS Aditya) & often a destroyer (Rajput class or Kolkata class).
INS Nilgiri at MDL getting outfitted:
INS Himgiri at GRSE being outfitted:
Notice the difference ? Nilgiri is at a much more advanced state. The bridge, the helicopter bay, radar mast etc. are all being built. But the exhaust stack has not been erected yet.
On the other hand, GRSE has already built Himgiri's exhaust stack. The engines have been integrated already. The rest of Himgiri is pretty empty though. No bridge, no helo bay, no radar mast. It is just as hull with the exhaust stack.
Interesting isn't it ? 2 shipyards building 2 ships of the same class with a different sequence of construction. One is doing the exhaust first & the other is doing exhaust last. Nilgiri & Himgiri will be delivered mid-2022 & mid-2023 respectively.
INS Himgiri at GRSE being outfitted:
Notice the difference ? Nilgiri is at a much more advanced state. The bridge, the helicopter bay, radar mast etc. are all being built. But the exhaust stack has not been erected yet.
On the other hand, GRSE has already built Himgiri's exhaust stack. The engines have been integrated already. The rest of Himgiri is pretty empty though. No bridge, no helo bay, no radar mast. It is just as hull with the exhaust stack.
Interesting isn't it ? 2 shipyards building 2 ships of the same class with a different sequence of construction. One is doing the exhaust first & the other is doing exhaust last. Nilgiri & Himgiri will be delivered mid-2022 & mid-2023 respectively.
How did you arrive at this conculsion? (genuine question).
At this point, do the Nilgiri-class frigates appear to be on schedule?
The exhaust stack has a bottom up configuration. The weight of the top layer is supported by the bottom. You can transfer the weight to the hull & superstructure at the end of the integration process.
If the engine haven't been integrated then the stack is being supported by the hull only, remember there is no superstructure yet. So to install the engines they would have to cut & remove the stack, use cranes to place the engines & then re-attach the stack back to the hull. Why would anyone do this ?
The only logical conclusion is that the stack is mounted because the engines & generators are in place. Also look at the area where the exhaust stack will be on the Nilgiri, you can see the hole in the top deck. That gap is for placing & installing the engines.
Look at the bottom left of the photos I posted. You can see the date these images are from. It's hard to say if things are exactly on schedule but it appears to be broadly on schedule.
One major problem can be the BAE Mark 45 gun. The Nilgiri class were supposed tp get those along with the Vizag class. But last we heard talks with BAE has fallen through. There is some indication that the Navy may go back to the Otobreda 127mm gun. But nothing is certain. If the uncertainty continues it will hit the delivery schedules.
Or maybe the Navy will have to settle for the 76mm OTO Melara for the time being.
From the article:
Probably the 76mm OTO Melara. BHEL license produces those.
What class frigates ? Triput ? Never heard of this before.
GSL is building 2 Talwar class frigates. But those ships don't use the 76mm. Instead they use the Russian 100mm A-190E naval main gun. Why would the last 2 ships get different guns of smaller caliber when the other 8 are getting the 100mm ?
The other frigates of the IN are the Shivalik class & Brahmaputra class, both of which came with the 76mm as standard. The Godavari class has the 57m as standard. Although there is one 1 of those left in service. The last of the Godavari class, the INS Gomati, is 33 years old. I doubt Gomati will get any upgrades.
The newest frigates, the Nilgiri class, were supposed to get the 127mm BAE Mark 45 Mod4 guns. But that deal has fallen through, so it is possible that the Nilgiris may come with the 76mm. That is the only likely place of order for the 76mm right now, until the ASW-SWC & ASuW NGMVs are launched.
GSL is not involved with the Nilgiri class frigate either. So...doesn't make sense. Unless GSL plans to supply hull blocks for the Nilgiri class frigates.
This poster is from a BHEL presentation at FICCI in 2016. BHEL has been manufacturing the 76mm Oto Melara gun under license at their Haridwar plant for a while now. They are doing a pretty good job too, never heard the Navy complain about the 76mm.
In 2012 the Navy signed a deal with the company for licensing the 127mm/64 cal. Otobreda naval gun to be built at Haridwar. A few years after that the Italian defence group Leonardo S.p.A. or Finmecannica as it was known then got blacklisted by the MoD for the AgustaWestland bribery case. Finmecannica also owned the Oto Melara. There goes the naval gun deal.
This photo is also from the BHEL presentation:
Navy had to settle for the 76mm on their Kolkata class. The Vizags were supposed to get the 127mm from BAE. But apparently BAE charged an exorbitant amount. By the time negotiations were still ongoing the Vizags were being outfitter & needed those guns immediately. So they navy decided to get 76mm as an interim solution. Now the deal with BAE has fallen through and if the situation isn't fixed the Nilgiri's would also get the 76mm.
Political relationship with Italy has drastically improved in the last few years with the end of the Italian marines case. It is possible that Finmecannica has been removed from the blacklist. After all South African defense firm Denel was removed from the blacklist in a similar fashion.
If this new article is indeed referring to the STRALES upgrade then it is a very good news. Its not that the STRALES upgrade that is very important. But the possibility of getting the 127mm Otobreda made in India.
It would also makes sense then that BHEL is delivering the guns to GSL. GSL may not have built any frigates yet but they have enough of experience to do a gun swap. The other shipyards are probably busy. The question still remains which frigates are getting these upgraded guns ? It is most likely the Shavalik class.
I didn't know that they were developing their own gun. The gun shown in the picture is the 127mm Otobreda that BHEL was studying for developing a training manual for technicians working on the gun. They were going to license manufacture it so they wanted to study the gun.
Oh so the Talwars are switching from 100mm to 76 mm. Why ? Serviceability issues with the Russian guns ?
I'm guessing commonality, reduced reliance on foreign suppliers, cheaper etc.
Found a couple of new photos of the INS Himgiri being constructed at GRSE. Arranging them chronologically we have :
The keel laying ceremony. Since the P-17As use modular construction it is an entire Hull block not just the keel. The photo below shows the keel of the 3rd Nilgiri class frigate at MDL. I couldn't find a photo of the INS Himgiri's keel.
The hull blocks are joined together in the dry dock. @Amal found a pic of crane that lifts the hull block. I expected it would be the goliath crane or a tower crane. But GRSE used a lattice boom type crawler crane to lift the hull blocks. I wonder why.
You can see a tower crane in the background may be that is to lift the hull block into the dry dock. Where as bringing the blocks together to be welded is done by the crawler crane.
Once the hull blocks are put together paints & coatings are applied. The ship is then tested for leakages & made ready for launching.
At the launching ceremony the ship is dressed up in flowers and draped in the national flag colours. The dry dock flood gates are opened & the ship is pushed into water.
After the ceremony the decorations are removed & the ship is towed to a different part of the shipyard for outfitting the superstructure.
This is where it is now & this is where the new exhaust stack was mounted.
So far the average time taken by a P-17A frigate to go from "laid down" to "launched" is around 2 years & 2-3 months. MDL has fallen behind schedule with the 2nd ship. That ship has already taken up 2 years & 5 months, so a delay of 2 months for now. GSRE is projected to launch their 2nd ship in July 2022, 2 years & 6 months after it was laid down.
The problem is MDL has earmarked 2 dry docks for the P-17A class & they were supposed to build 4 ships. So the construction of the 4th ship cannot begin until the first 2 ships have been launched. So the delay in 1 ship will transfer to the next & add up. GRSE doesn't have that problem as they are building all 3 ships simultaneously.
This is why increasing the number of dry docks is necessary. Thankfully both MDL & GRSE are doing that.
The keel laying ceremony. Since the P-17As use modular construction it is an entire Hull block not just the keel. The photo below shows the keel of the 3rd Nilgiri class frigate at MDL. I couldn't find a photo of the INS Himgiri's keel.
The hull blocks are joined together in the dry dock. @Amal found a pic of crane that lifts the hull block. I expected it would be the goliath crane or a tower crane. But GRSE used a lattice boom type crawler crane to lift the hull blocks. I wonder why.
You can see a tower crane in the background may be that is to lift the hull block into the dry dock. Where as bringing the blocks together to be welded is done by the crawler crane.
Once the hull blocks are put together paints & coatings are applied. The ship is then tested for leakages & made ready for launching.
At the launching ceremony the ship is dressed up in flowers and draped in the national flag colours. The dry dock flood gates are opened & the ship is pushed into water.
After the ceremony the decorations are removed & the ship is towed to a different part of the shipyard for outfitting the superstructure.
This is where it is now & this is where the new exhaust stack was mounted.
So far the average time taken by a P-17A frigate to go from "laid down" to "launched" is around 2 years & 2-3 months. MDL has fallen behind schedule with the 2nd ship. That ship has already taken up 2 years & 5 months, so a delay of 2 months for now. GSRE is projected to launch their 2nd ship in July 2022, 2 years & 6 months after it was laid down.
The problem is MDL has earmarked 2 dry docks for the P-17A class & they were supposed to build 4 ships. So the construction of the 4th ship cannot begin until the first 2 ships have been launched. So the delay in 1 ship will transfer to the next & add up. GRSE doesn't have that problem as they are building all 3 ships simultaneously.
This is why increasing the number of dry docks is necessary. Thankfully both MDL & GRSE are doing that.
Guy called Dharani at the other forum snapped a pic of MDL's Kasara Basin from the eastern freeway:
I did a quick check and it adds up:
The radar housing of Nilgiri seems to be in place.
@Gautam @Ashwin @randomradio
I did a quick check and it adds up:
The radar housing of Nilgiri seems to be in place.
@Gautam @Ashwin @randomradio
LAUNCHING CEREMONY OF TUSHIL - P1135.6 FOLLOW ON FRIGATE (EX-RUSSIA)
Posted On: 29 OCT 2021 11:14AM by PIB Delhi
The 7th Indian Navy Frigate of P1135.6 class was launched on 28 Oct 2021 at Yantar Shipyard, Kaliningrad, Russia in presence of Shri D Bala Venkatesh Varma, Ambassador of India (Moscow) and senior dignitaries of the Russian Federation and officials of the Indian Navy. During the ceremony, the ship was formally named as ‘Tushil’ by Smt Datla Vidya Varma. Tushil is a Sanskrit word meaning Protector Shield.
Based on an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) between the Government of Republic of India and Government of Russian Federation for construction of two ships of Project 1135.6 ships in Russia and two ships in India at M/s Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL), the contract for construction of two ships was signed between India and Russia in Oct 18.
The construction of these ships is based on Indian Navy’s specific requirements to meet the entire spectrum of naval warfare in all three dimensions of Air, Surface and Sub-surface. The ships with a potent combination of state-of-art Indian and Russian Weapons and Sensors are equipped to operate in Littoral and Blue waters, both as a single unit and as consort in a naval task force. They feature “stealth technology” in terms of low radar and under water noise signatures. These ships are being equipped with major Indian supplied equipment such as Surface to Surface Missiles, Sonar system, Surface Surveillance Radar, Communication Suite and ASW system along with Russian Surface to Air Missiles and gun mounts.
Mr Ilya Samarin, Director General, Yantar Shipyard, Kaliningrad, in his address dwelt upon the challenges faced by the Shipyard in executing the complex shipbuilding project. Despite challenges posed by the ongoing pandemic, production of the ships was continued by utilisation of innovative solutions. He thanked the Indian Government for their unstinted support and reiterated shipyard’s commitment to deliver the ships as per contractual timelines. Shri D Bala Venkatesh Varma, Ambassador of India (Moscow), highlighted the long standing tradition of Military Technical Cooperation between India and Russia. He acknowledged the efforts put in by the Yantar Shipyard to ensure that the ship was launched as per contractual timelines overcoming the challenges imposed by COVID-19.
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Notice something interesting? A190E is replaced with SRGM.