Do we have any of our Navy ships with 16 /32 VLS configuration like PN Jinnah class/ type 54a/p??
Isnt 8 VLS confi too small?
Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Isnt 8 VLS confi too small?
Kolkata class, 16 Brahmos VLS & 32 Barak-8 VLS. Oh...you meant 16/32 VLS for Air Defence ? Then no. The Nilgiri class(P-17A) will do that I think.
Yep. But then the Brahmos is a massive missile. Mounting that on a smallish boat will eat up a lot of space. We have to find a smaller/lighter missile to use as the primary weaponry. In any case look at larger ships, the Kolkata class for example. It has a lot of free space and yet chooses no to carry additional weaponry. Its a policy I don't quite understand, but it seems to be the policy Navy follows.
Yes for air defence role , to deal with PAF.
Do u know why we limited Kolkata class destroyer to just 3?
Barak 8s weight is just 275kg. Can we replace 16 cell VLS of Kolkata class with another 32 cell VLS of Barak 8 so that total number is 64????
Probably cost issues???? Or is it engine power?? We certainly need more fire power in our ships
Then the Nilgiri class is the one you are looking for.
A combination of legacy, industry and budget issues. Many of which the Navy has been trying to counter in the Nilgiri class. Will expand if you are interested.
With the amount of space available and assuming the Kolkata doesn't expand on Brahmos or add any electronics, each of those ships have enough deck space to carry over 128 Barak-8 missiles theoretically. But that will come at a hefty price, literally and figuratively. Putting that many missiles on one ship will put a strain on Navy's budget and it will use a almost all usable space. The extra space that the Navy would use for carrying food, fuel, medicine, supplies etc for the crew. This in turn will limit the operating radius of the ships. The ships will have to relatively remain close by to naval bases or fleet tankers. We don't have enough fleet tankers or foreign bases. Although the rapid acquisitions of fuel barges in the Navy along with logistics agreements with various countries is improving the situation. Depending on budgets and priorities we might see the Navy going in that direction.
Although its hard to imagine the Navy increasing the VLS for AD and not for Brahmos. Also increase in VLS, if it happens, will be a balancing act between ship's internal space and VLS numbers. So let's not expect any lofty increase in weapon count.
Cost plays an important role, but its not the only thing. Engine power is not an issue, current engines are good enough. But as always we don't make gas turbines, so there is that.
Any idea as to how many Shtil-1 missiles it will carry. The russian Admiral Grigovorich class carries 24 Shtil-1 missiles in similar no of VLS cells.
There would be a few novices like me, who would love to read in detail, if at all you can elaborate.
I did some calculations and found out that a single Brahmos VLS cell can easily carry 4 Barak 8 missiles. Why do we not go this way. The American Arleigh Burke class destroyers pack their SAMs in a quad pack config in the Mk41 VLS.
Also, when are we going to get rid of the RBU-6000 rocket launchers, they eat quite a lot of space. Nearly every ship of the IN from a small corvette to a large destroyer has those RBU-6000 launchers.
Also, when are we going to get rid of the RBU-6000 rocket launchers, they eat quite a lot of space. Nearly every ship of the IN from a small corvette to a large destroyer has those RBU-6000 launchers.
Our foray into modern military shipbuilding began in the 70s-80s with a lot of Russian technical assistance. As such it was to be expected that Russian influences in design choices and weaponry would remain prominent for decades to come. Our shipyards had some experience in building ships, mostly fishing trawlers, patrol boats etc but knew nothing of how to handle construction of large military vessels. As they lacked technological sophistication, they adopted the easiest way of building ships which was the telescopic construction method. The telescoping method was again a Russian influence.
This method of construction is very simple. You start from the bottom and work your way up. First the keel would be laid, then small blocks of hull would be welded together on the keel. The surface of the hull in contact to water would be put together plate by plate, after one plate is welded it would need to be tested for leakages and so on. Then the extra weld beads would have to be grinded to maintain surface quality. Now once you are done with one plate, move to the next and repeat the whole process. Once the hull is complete and tested in the dry dock for leakages, you will have to test it in a wet dock(leakage and static float test) after that the boat is floated out of the dock in an event called "launching". This is to see if the boat floats well under dynamic conditions. Then repeat the whole block-by-block process for the superstructure and finally you have built a ship.
Pic: A hull module unit of Project 15A Kolkata Class destroyer being built in the Assembly Shop at Mazagon Docks Ltd.
The advantages of this process is that its very simple, doesn't need highly trained labour, doesn't need sophisticated expensive equipment etc. The dis-advantages are : its very time consuming, the cost of ship per unit will be higher than it should be, produces a lot of scrap metal etc.
For any observer of Indian shipbuilding the dis-advantages would sound very familiar. Delayed delivery, cost over runs, expensive per unit costs are some of the most common problems the navy faces today. To answer the initial question of why orders are restricted to 3 or 5 or some other measly number, it is because of these problems. The Navy worries that no matter how modern a ship they may design by the time it is commisioned it might be outdated. Navy also gets the smallest share of budget and the constant cost over runs aren't helping.
So what is the solution out of this doom and gloom situation. Adopting a newer construction method and changing the cycle of piecemeal orders. Over the years the Navy has studied what is known in the west as "Modular construction method". They have worked out what is needed to perform such construction in India and they have modernised shipyards accordingly.
In Modular construction method the entire ship design is cut to large pieces. Think of it like cutting large pieces of a cake. These large blocks would be constructed separately and then joined together to form the entire ship.
L&T Shipyard repairing a large commercial vessel. Look at the size of those blocks.
L&T has managed to utilise modular construction method to deliver every ship ordered by the Coast Guards ahead of schedule and with no cost over runs.
The Navy wants to use this method to build the P-17A class frigates. They have also gone from ordering 3-4 ships to 7 at once. It is also important to remember that the Navy isn't opting for modular construction as it is in the west. They have modified it to our requirements and constraints. Whether this experiment will work or not we'll have to wait and see
Nice explanation.
Which method are Chinese using in their shipyards??? Even they had Russian influence.
Chinese have 30 Type 54A Frigates in PLAN. Commissioning started in 2008 and as per wiki all 30 are in service. This means they delivered 30 ships in 10-11 years through 2 shipyards.
Pakistan has ordered 4 of these in 2018 and all 4 are to be delivered by 2021 just 3 years
Thats absolutely amazing.
In comparison we have Kamorta class corvettes , we have planned 4 in service 3 , 1 being built.
Its construction started in 2005 and only 3 were delivered in 12 years.
What sort of tricks do the Chinese have in their pockets???
I have read somewhere that their shipyards have 3 8hr shifts(basically 24hrs work) a d they do not support any kind of labour unions. Also the shipyards worjers do not have any holidays.Nice explanation.
Which method are Chinese using in their shipyards??? Even they had Russian influence.
Chinese have 30 Type 54A Frigates in PLAN. Commissioning started in 2008 and as per wiki all 30 are in service. This means they delivered 30 ships in 10-11 years through 2 shipyards.
Pakistan has ordered 4 of these in 2018 and all 4 are to be delivered by 2021 just 3 years
Thats absolutely amazing.
In comparison we have Kamorta class corvettes , we have planned 4 in service 3 , 1 being built.
Its construction started in 2005 and only 3 were delivered in 12 years.
What sort of tricks do the Chinese have in their pockets???
The new frigates will come with the Russian equivalent of Barak 8. It's not as advanced, but it's really good, a very decent upgrade over the cuttent SAM used on Shivaliks, Delhis and the older Talwars.
We are still import specialists. It's already very difficult to coordinate with our own industry, let alone the industries of other countries. Once we start designing our own missiles, a common modular VLS will become possible.
As for the RBU-6000, we may replace it once we have our own anti-sub missile, which is coming up.
Let's see what our future next gen designs will look like.
And also most of the equipment on their ships is locally sourced, so minimum to no delays in procurement on weapons and subsystems
L&T along with DRDO developed VLS system for Brahmos, we should look to integrate Barak 8 into those VLS cells as one cell can easily accommodate 4 Barak 8. Also, DRDO is developing a VLS system known as Ship Launch System(SLS).
The Chinese use the same modular construction method, with a few changes. People have already talked about labour conditions, so I will skip that. Aside from that, unlike the Americans, the Chinese don't put their ships through rigorous testing before putting it in service. If you are lucky everything will be fine, if not the ship will be making trips to the dry docks again and again.Nice explanation.
Which method are Chinese using in their shipyards??? Even they had Russian influence.
Chinese have 30 Type 54A Frigates in PLAN. Commissioning started in 2008 and as per wiki all 30 are in service. This means they delivered 30 ships in 10-11 years through 2 shipyards.
Pakistan has ordered 4 of these in 2018 and all 4 are to be delivered by 2021 just 3 years
Thats absolutely amazing.
In comparison we have Kamorta class corvettes , we have planned 4 in service 3 , 1 being built.
Its construction started in 2005 and only 3 were delivered in 12 years.
What sort of tricks do the Chinese have in their pockets???
Integrating the Barak 8 missile requires Israeli involvement, along with Russian, apart from various Indian companies. Plus the Barak 8 and Brahmos have to be redesigned, these are not drop fit, and even the VLS has to be redesigned since Barak 8 is a hot launch system and needs an exhaust.
It's a whole lot easier to just have 2 different VLS designs.
As I said, you need to work on entirely new missiles from scratch along with a modular VLS if you want what the Chinese and Americans have. So no Brahmos, no Barak etc.
Brahmos family platform is inherently good for VLS options.
I was under the assumption that UVSL already exists as a Brahmos- Nirbhay launcher.
Nirbhay hasn't even finished testing yet. Its been a while since the last test. The dimensions of the missile does mean the Nirbhay might be able to operate out of Brahmos VLS.
We are yet to see if that's possible. The current UVLS may not necessarily do the job.
The U in UVLS is for different types of platforms, not different types of missiles.