Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Parthu]

Isn't 5.56x45 fired from a smaller barrel better than MINSAS?

The calibre (diameter of the inside of the barrel) of guns firing either 5.56x45mm or 5.56x30mm is the same. That diameter is roughly 0.22 inches. Even the small .22 LR is the same calibre as the 5.56x45mm Nato.

5.56mm is the diameter of the round (or 0.223 in inches) and 45mm is the length of the casing. The latter is the problem when you're looking to chamber a 5.56x45mm round in a gun meant to fire 5.56x30mm.

You have excess length of 15mm which the chamber, feed mechanism, or even magazine itself is not designed to accommodate.

What advantage does MINSAS offer compared to 5.56NATO? Do you have any idea?

If you're asking why IA choose to switch carbine requirement to x30 from the x45, the most likely answer I can come up with is that they had to throw OFB a bone.

 

[Milspec]

The calibre (diameter of the inside of the barrel) of guns firing either 5.56x45mm or 5.56x30mm is the same. That diameter is roughly 0.22 inches. Even the small .22 LR is the same calibre as the 5.56x45mm Nato.

5.56mm is the diameter of the round (or 0.223 in inches) and 45mm is the length of the casing. The latter is the problem when you're looking to chamber a 5.56x45mm round in a gun meant to fire 5.56x30mm.

You have excess length of 15mm which the chamber, feed mechanism, or even magazine itself is not designed to accommodate.



If you're asking why IA choose to switch carbine requirement to x30 from the x45, the most likely answer I can come up with is that they had to throw OFB a bone.

5.56x30mm is a half assed Ofb attempt to create the magic of the FN 5.7×28 used in the FNP90 and the FN Five Seven Pistols.

Minsas, MSMC's 5.56x30 round takes the best features of 5.56 Nato, i.e flat shooting high velocity, and trims it down, while retaining it's bad feature, i.e it's projectile diameter. It's like taking Amitabh Bachhan and cutting him down to Amir Khans size.

E = (M x V²) ÷ K

where K = 450,435 and is derived from (2 x 32.1739 x 7000),
M is the weight of the projectile, in grains,
V is the velocity in feet per second and
E is the energy in foot pounds.

JVPC has a barrel length of 11.8" .

Following is the velocity table for different barrel lengths.

Given that case length reduces from 45mm to 30 mm, the reduction is 33%. Assuming linear relationship between charge and the velocity.

Subsequent velocity for 5.56x30 from 11.8" barrel would be 1804.6675 ft/s, for a 62 grain bullet. (At the muzzle)


E= 448.3 ft.lbf (or 607.8 Joules). Almost 1/3rd the energy of the a round fired from a full size Insas. Question is is that enough, if forces are Ok with that, we should be fine too. Compare that to standard 9mm 115 grain load out, I am just looking at a aguila box in front of me which claims 399ft.lbf which is about 540.97 joules.

Also remember that FN5.7 was a new design from ground up, whereas Minsas is shortened 5.56x45Nato. Which is only made in 64grain ball variant.

Now Energy is just one part of the equation.
Look at the projectile diameter, If you have a slow moving bullet , it should be a big hunk of lead like the 45acp ( its velocity is 885 ft/s) but that big projectile makes a big hole in the end. Similarly if you have a small bullet like the 5.45x39 or the 5.56x45, the tiny bullet has a lot of speed behind it to tumble in the flesh.
Minsas 5.56x30 tried to be jack of all trades with the speed, bullet diameter/ terminal energy. Its an ok bullet, and should be satisfactory replacement for 9mm if IA wants it to be, I personally won't make the switch.

Logistics:
It would make sense to adopt a carbine which has commonality of caliber with standard issue sidearm. I don't think there will be a 5.56x30mm handgun offering so to me that is an issue. I would much rather have a short barrel carbine that uses either a pistol round or a uses a intermediate caliber round shared with Assault rifles. Not a fan three separate calibers when two can take care of the role.


Advantages of MSCM/JVPC
Better ballistics coef compared to 9mm (assuming performance similar to FN5.7), performance falls between 22 hornet and 5.7, (given 22 hornet is a pretty good round)
Lower weight, more rounds can be carried.

Disadvantages:
No Commonality will not be compatible with any other platform, not a proven round, I doubt will have the energy to tumble in the flesh, will be effected by drift and drop.

 

[vstol Jockey]

5.56x30mm is a half assed Ofb attempt to create the magic of the FN 5.7×28 used in the FNP90 and the FN Five Seven Pistols.

Minsas, MSMC's 5.56x30 round takes the best features of 5.56 Nato, i.e flat shooting high velocity, and trims it down, while retaining it's bad feature, i.e it's projectile diameter. It's like taking Amitabh Bachhan and cutting him down to Amir Khans size.

E = (M x V²) ÷ K

where K = 450,435 and is derived from (2 x 32.1739 x 7000),
M is the weight of the projectile, in grains,
V is the velocity in feet per second and
E is the energy in foot pounds.

JVPC has a barrel length of 11.8" .

Following is the velocity table for different barrel lengths. View attachment 1937
Given that case length reduces from 45mm to 30 mm, the reduction is 33%. Assuming linear relationship between charge and the velocity.

Subsequent velocity for 5.56x30 from 11.8" barrel would be 1804.6675 ft/s, for a 62 grain bullet. (At the muzzle)


E= 448.3 ft.lbf (or 607.8 Joules). Almost 1/3rd the energy of the a round fired from a full size Insas. Question is is that enough, if forces are Ok with that, we should be fine too. Compare that to standard 9mm 115 grain load out, I am just looking at a aguila box in front of me which claims 399ft.lbf which is about 540.97 joules.

Also remember that FN5.7 was a new design from ground up, whereas Minsas is shortened 5.56x45Nato. Which is only made in 64grain ball variant.

Now Energy is just one part of the equation.
Look at the projectile diameter, If you have a slow moving bullet , it should be a big hunk of lead like the 45acp ( its velocity is 885 ft/s) but that big projectile makes a big hole in the end. Similarly if you have a small bullet like the 5.45x39 or the 5.56x45, the tiny bullet has a lot of speed behind it to tumble in the flesh.
Minsas 5.56x30 tried to be jack of all trades with the speed, bullet diameter/ terminal energy. Its an ok bullet, and should be satisfactory replacement for 9mm if IA wants it to be, I personally won't make the switch.

Logistics:
It would make sense to adopt a carbine which has commonality of caliber with standard issue sidearm. I don't think there will be a 5.56x30mm handgun offering so to me that is an issue. I would much rather have a short barrel carbine that uses either a pistol round or a uses a intermediate caliber round shared with Assault rifles. Not a fan three separate calibers when two can take care of the role.


Advantages of MSCM/JVPC
Better ballistics coef compared to 9mm (assuming performance similar to FN5.7), performance falls between 22 hornet and 5.7, (given 22 hornet is a pretty good round)
Lower weight, more rounds can be carried.

Disadvantages:
No Commonality will not be compatible with any other platform, not a proven round, I doubt will have the energy to tumble in the flesh, will be effected by drift and drop.

The best CQB weapon is a heavy bullet fired from side arm like pistol. carbine is not a CQB. I would prefer a 0.45 bullet in my pistol than a 1911 for CQB.

 

[GuardianRED]

dont waste your time.

For the 6.5 Grendel - the Energy vs Distance is really interesting!! ... don't want to be at the receiving of this!

 

[GuardianRED]

The best CQB weapon is a heavy bullet fired from side arm like pistol. carbine is not a CQB. I would prefer a 0.45 bullet in my pistol than a 1911 for CQB.

Think that is the SOP for the French GIGN , the lead operator goes in the field loaded with a .45/.38 revolver ! (depending on the situation)

 

[vstol Jockey]

Think that is the SOP for the French GIGN , the lead operator goes in the field loaded with a .45/.38 revolver ! (depending on the situation)

If you look at most recent videos of Indian SF operations, you will find that the lead guy goes in with side arm.

 

[Milspec]

The best CQB weapon is a heavy bullet fired from side arm like pistol. carbine is not a CQB. I would prefer a 0.45 bullet in my pistol than a 1911 for CQB.

maybe you had a typo but 1911 is traditionally chambered 45acp, although these days you can find some *censored*ized double stack 9mm options for 1911's.

 

[Milspec]

For the 6.5 Grendel - the Energy vs Distance is really interesting!! ... don't want to be at the receiving of this!

I keep fighting with the thought of building an AR in the Grendel platform. I have two more receivers sitting, but then I would hate to add any more calibers than i already have.

 

[GuardianRED]

I keep fighting with the thought of building an AR in the Grendel platform. I have two more receivers sitting, but then I would hate to add any more calibers than i already have.

Just realize Grendel is from Beowulf ! (why name such?)

Im guessing you have your ARs chambered for 5.56 and 6.8? How easy it is to chamber the same for the 6.5?

 

[Milspec]

Just realize Grendel is from Beowulf ! (why name such?)

Im guessing you have your ARs chambered for 5.56 and 6.8? How easy it is to chamber the same for the 6.5?

its as easy as swapping out the upper. AR platforms : I have built one in 5.56, and have two more lowers sitting , also have a AR10 lower fully built and waiting on getting my upper for 7.62x51N.

Beowulf is a kickass epic, and Grendel was kick *censored* Monster.

 

[Himanshu]

Well, there you have it.

Latest requirements state the 5.56x30mm as the preferred cartridge. All talk of 5.56x45mm CQB carbine is gone.

https://twitter.com/x/status/969210397814394880

https://twitter.com/x/status/969453697980809216

 

[vstol Jockey]

maybe you had a typo but 1911 is traditionally chambered 45acp, although these days you can find some *censored*ized double stack 9mm options for 1911's.

There are many more side arms with 0.45 round and more powerful than 1911. It was not a typo, I have used 1911 extensively and I know its 0.45. The standard issue to fighter pilots during actual operations is 1911. so we all fighter pilots are very good at using it.

 

[Milspec]

There are many more side arms with 0.45 round and more powerful than 1911. It was not a typo, I have used 1911 extensively and I know its 0.45. The standard issue to fighter pilots during actual operations is 1911. so we all fighter pilots are very good at using it.

A bit confused by your comment.
A 45acp will have the same energy through the same barrel length whatever the pistol type is. would you rather have a longer barrel 45acp pistol than the 1911? Colt 1911 and sig P220 both chambered in 45acp will have the same "power". Which sidearms chambered in 45acp you believe are more powerful than the 1911?

 

[vstol Jockey]

A bit confused by your comment.
A 45acp will have the same energy through the same barrel length whatever the pistol type is. would you rather have a longer barrel 45acp pistol than the 1911? Colt 1911 and sig P220 both chambered in 45acp will have the same "power". Which sidearms chambered in 45acp you believe are more powerful than the 1911?

Dirty Harry style side arm. he had a longer one.

 

[Milspec]

Dirty Harry style side arm. he had a longer one.

ohh, you are referring to Model 29 revolvers. those are 44 Magnum though not 45acp, and they are specific to revolvers. and now there are even more powerful calibers like the 454 casul and 500SW magnum, 460 SWM chambered in revolver. Even the 50AE of the Desert Eagle is no slouch. other than 454 casul though none of them are 45 chamberings.

 

[Parthu]

Thanks to Shatrujeet!

Very rare image of a 1C SLR, manufactured by OFB. This is the full-auto enabled version of the widely used 1A SLR. The 1C was once used by Para-SF commandos, paratroopers, BMP vehicle crews among others.

@Hellfire @Milspec @GuardianRED @vstol Jockey @randomradio

 

[Parthu]

via ADGPI Twitter handle and thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

These pictures are from the Indian Army's ongoing Chindits Trial Expedition flagged off by Lieutenant General DR Soni on February 16 (the expedition will conclude on March the 8th). The expedition is done to commemorate the spirit of the Indian troops deployed on the Burma front during the Second World War.

Of note are the quarter-zip uniforms (in Woodland MARPAT camoflague, same as worn by US Marines), who's status is currently unknown (to me at least) - are these the forerunners of future standard uniform of the Indian Army? Or is this gear procured only for the purpose of this expedition? I guess time will tell:

More via ADGPI Facebook page (Phase-I of the expedition):

Yet to establish which particular unit these soldiers are from....although the 56 Armored Regiment is the only one known as "Lion Hearts" as far as I know.

@Hellfire @Milspec @GuardianRED @Ashwin @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Shashank @Vergennes @Himanshu

 

[Milspec]

via ADGPI Twitter handle and thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

These pictures are from the Indian Army's ongoing Chindits Trial Expedition flagged off by Lieutenant General DR Soni on February 16 (the expedition will conclude on March the 8th). The expedition is done to commemorate the spirit of the Indian troops deployed on the Burma front during the Second World War.

Of note are the quarter-zip uniforms (in Woodland MARPAT camoflague, same as worn by US Marines), who's status is currently unknown (to me at least) - are these the forerunners of future standard uniform of the Indian Army? Or is this gear procured only for the purpose of this expedition? I guess time will tell:

More via ADGPI Facebook page (Phase-I of the expedition):

Yet to establish which particular unit these soldiers are from....although the 56 Armored Regiment is the only one known as "Lion Hearts" as far as I know.

@Hellfire @Milspec @GuardianRED @Ashwin @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Shashank @Vergennes @Himanshu

Could it be 23rd Sikh. I remember Sherdil being associated with the new battalion.

 

[GuardianRED]

via ADGPI Twitter handle and thanks to @Abingdonboy for the find!

These pictures are from the Indian Army's ongoing Chindits Trial Expedition flagged off by Lieutenant General DR Soni on February 16 (the expedition will conclude on March the 8th). The expedition is done to commemorate the spirit of the Indian troops deployed on the Burma front during the Second World War.

Of note are the quarter-zip uniforms (in Woodland MARPAT camoflague, same as worn by US Marines), who's status is currently unknown (to me at least) - are these the forerunners of future standard uniform of the Indian Army? Or is this gear procured only for the purpose of this expedition? I guess time will tell:

More via ADGPI Facebook page (Phase-I of the expedition):

Yet to establish which particular unit these soldiers are from....although the 56 Armored Regiment is the only one known as "Lion Hearts" as far as I know.

@Hellfire @Milspec @GuardianRED @Ashwin @randomradio @vstol Jockey @Shashank @Vergennes @Himanshu

Nice to see the Chindits Patch being used even today!

Other possibilities could be

27 Mountain Division
Mountain Lion


But i guess Units Don't Were division Patches yes?

 

[GuardianRED]

Thanks to Shatrujeet!

Very rare image of a 1C SLR, manufactured by OFB. This is the full-auto enabled version of the widely used 1A SLR. The 1C was once used by Para-SF commandos, paratroopers, BMP vehicle crews among others.

@Hellfire @Milspec @GuardianRED @vstol Jockey @randomradio

This is a good example of why using the term "obsolete" for a combat rifle is just wrong!

Guessing - Special Forces - bend in - Maoist region ?!