Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Milspec]

Why? What's wrong with it ? It seems to have met the Army's technical requirements & has already seen induction with a few constabularies.

I will address your post backwords.
It's a good thing that forces are interested in adopting it, if it is because jvpc fits their bill, then great. I am not the operator, so as long as operator is happy my complaint is irrelevant.

What's Wrong with it, - There is nothing wrong with the gun, the issue is how I see the system. I might be completely wrong and it might be the most radical system fielded. But in my limited perspective, the gun is a lazy effort.
Why - It's the same Insas design, same recoil system, same bolt assembly, same recoil spring, and shitty single-stage trigger. The caliber is a 5.56x30mm proprietary ammunition. In concept the idea is similar to 5.7x28mm FN cartridge, but the bullet is not optimised and instead it turns out to behave like weak 5.56 nato squib load.
JVPC and the cancelled Minsas, both take a relatively hot round the 5.56x45 known for it's flat shooting and extreme muzzle speed, and cut down on it's energy to lose the only thing that was actually going for it.
The rifle still has the AK style long-stroke piston, when there is no necessity for it, a simple blowback is pretty much the norm for PDW's and SMG's. and finally, look at it, it still has a bayonet lug on the barrel, I don't think you will be able to cycle the thing suppresses.

These are some contemporary PDW's in the market.

Stibog GP

MP7

Kriss Vector

APC9

MP9

GHM9

 

[zapper]

 

[Killbot]

Why? What's wrong with it ? It seems to have met the Army's technical requirements & has already seen induction with a few constabularies.

It operates on a long stroke gas piston system. i.e the recoil will be high and the thing is going to be loud as hell. It isn't going to be accurate at all. And then there is the ergonomics. The grip angle sucks, charging handle position is in the way of more rails for mounting accessories like IR aiming module and tactical flashlight. Location of the front sight post sucks as well. You can't even extend the top rail with that thing in the way. And the thing is as big as an X-95, at least. That 12" barrel is too long for a weapon of its class. It doesn't have a bolt catch or release (there's a manual one, but it is pretty much useless). It is basically an AK/INSAS system stuck in an Uzi type frame. Absolutely nothing new that might improve its effectiveness. Just like that Amogh carbine thing. Except this one sucks even more..

Edit: Instead of working on the bullet, they just made the barrel longer. They could just have made a different projectile or used a faster burning propellant for the bullet.

edit2: @Milspec is right, it is just a lazy effort.

 

[Lolwa]

The grip angle sucks, charging handle position is in the way of more rails for mounting accessories like IR aiming module and tactical flashlight

That's a problem but I don't think anyone will use the jvpc in tactical environment like the mp9 is used by Ghataks. The amogh was also a good design which got wasted by the drdo. At best Assam rifles and RR will introduce them in some way or form. And might also be used as a pdw for support forces and tank crews. Simple not too different from the Insas and effective under 200m. Not much future growth either.
This is the best tactical setup jvpc can achieve.

So forget about using this in some sophisticated spec op type role. Also long stroke piston's are not that inaccurate it's an over-exxageration. Fal was long stroke postion so was the fnc so is the galil and sig 550 series. All are pretty accurate rifles.
Though the roller delayed operation would have been a good idea for something like the jvpc..

 

[Killbot]

The amogh was also a good design which got wasted by the drdo. At best Assam rifles and RR will introduce them in some way or form.

It may have been good, but it was useless. Just like this JVPC. Why would anyone but SOF and executive protection personnel use it? And this abomination doesn't cut it for either role.

Fal was long stroke postion so was the fnc so is the galil and sig 550 series.

FAL was short stroke piston gun. Not known for its accuracy either. Neither Galil nor Sig 550 series are accurate either, per se. They are sure as hell a lot more ergonomic and comfortable to use.

Though the roller delayed operation would have been a good idea for something like the jvpc..

The LSP is the worst.

Plus it is too big to be effectively concealed. There goes the one thing that could have gone its way: compact size. It is crap period.

Edit: The amogh was just an AK chambered in 5.56*30mm caliber.. Don't see how the design was 'good'.

 

[Lolwa]

FAL was short stroke piston gun. Not known for its accurate either. Neither Galil nor Sig 550 series are accurate either, per se. They are sure as hell a lot more ergonomic and comfortable to use.

Funny how I thought fal was a long stroke piston all this time .The only short stroke piston of the era I knew to be used en-masse was the sks. And therefore the type 03 and type 95 were short stroke pistons for the chinese.The G3 was roller delayed blowback.

Though long stroke piston are comparitively not as accurate compared to short stroke they aren't inaccurate. DI continues to still rule the roost when it comes to accuracy and precision. Dragunov has a history of being used in dmr role so long stroke piston are not total shit.Same for the g3 with the psg and msg 90.

The LSP is the worst.

Plus it is too big to be effectively concealed. There goes the one thing that could have gone its way: compact size. It is crap period.

Long stroke piston have been used by majority of militaries since the 50's. It's far from a bad system and continues to be the most reliable out of all three systems. Though I agree jvpc is oversized compared to its peers. But the thing can be still hidden under traditional Kashmiri clothes that is where they will be used..

 

[Killbot]

Fn fal is a long stroke piston you can check there is a reason why Insas was a long stroke piston . The only short stroke piston of the era to be used en-masse was the sks. And therefore the type 03 and type 95 were short stroke pistons for the chinese. Countries make things what they are experienced in.The G3 was roller delayed blowback. The short stroke piston becoming popular was a late cold war phenomenon and only became mainstream after the ar 18 design became online. And the Germans, Brits,French and the rest of their East Asian allies adopted the ar 18 in different ways. The short stroke system was the only common factor.
Though long stroke piston are comparitively not as accurate compared to short stroke they aren't inaccurate. DI continues to still rule the roost when it comes to accuracy and precision. Fal was a pretty good rifle for its time and it's accurised version has been used as a dmr. Same for the g3 with the psg and msg 90.


Long stroke piston have been used by majority of militaries since the 50's. It's far from a bad system and continues to be the most reliable out of all three systems. Though I agree jvpc is oversized compared to its peers. But the thing can be still hidden under traditional Kashmiri clothes that is where they will be used..

Do your research. G3 is a roller delayed blowback gun, which means its pretty accurate. PSG1 was purpose built for sub MOA accuracy. It isn't a DMR, but an Urban sniper rifle. Not reliable enough for adverse climate. And heavy as shit. FAL was a jack of all trades kinda thing. Not particularly accurate.

LSP is the worst choice for the JVPC. Even SSP would have been okay. Just not LSP.

INSAS is just an AK. With FN FNC barrel assembly, AR-15 style selector and FAL charging handle. And FNC handguard. The only thing new on it is the gas block, which isn't all that cutting edge..

 

[Lolwa]

View attachment 18968

Do your research. G3 is a roller delayed blowback gun, which means its pretty accurate. PSG1 was purpose built for sub MOA accuracy. It isn't a DMR, but an Urban sniper rifle. Not reliable enough for adverse climate. And heavy as shit. FAL was a jack of all trades kinda thing. Not particularly accurate.

LSP is the worst choice for the JVPC. Even SSP would have been okay. Just not LSP.

INSAS is just an AK. With FN FNC barrel assembly, AR-15 style selector and FAL charging handle. And FNC handguard. The only thing new on it is the gas block, which isn't all that cutting edge..

I checked out already edited in my last post.
Semi-Autos like PSG would be considered dmr for the most part. The dragunov was used as a sniper rifle even though it's a dmr and much worse when it comes to accuracy to something like the psg..
Also G3 wasn't anymore accurate or better to fire than the fal. G3 is overrated unlike the mp5.

Though I have already agreed in the lsp being not a good idea but still it's not completely rubbish. The JVPC is now what it is. The thing can is not totally useless junk like the Insas. Its on the IA to decide whether they will procure it or not..
Insas was DoA we shouldn't be wasting time on that.

 

[Killbot]

I checked out already edited in my last post.
Semi-Autos like PSG would be considered dmr for the most part. The dragunov was used as a sniper rifle even though it's a dmr and much worse when it comes to accuracy to something like the psg..
Also G3 wasn't anymore accurate or better to fire than the fal. G3 is overrated unlike the mp5.

Though I have already agreed in the lsp being not a good idea but still it's not completely rubbish. The JVPC is now what it is. The thing can is not totally useless junk like the Insas. Its on the IA to decide whether they will procure it or not..
Insas was DoA we shouldn't be wasting time on that.

The thing is even crappier than INSAS. At least INSAS had a purpose. PSG weighs around 7kg empty. FAL weighs 4.5 kg and Dragunov 4kg for comparison. And it is complex as hell. Not what you want from a DMR. It isn't mobile at all. Plus the recoil us pretty bad despite the weight because it doesn't have a muzzle device.

 

[Lolwa]

The thing is even crappier than INSAS. At least INSAS had a purpose. PSG weighs around 7kg empty. FAL weighs 4.5 kg and Dragunov 4kg for comparison. And it is complex as hell. Not what you want from a DMR. It isn't mobile at all. Plus the recoil us pretty bad despite the weight because it doesn't have a muzzle device.

Nothing just that it's a semi-auto so it's pretty much a dmr in my opinion, as all things German it might be over-engineered. Even the h&k 416 is pretty bulky compared to its competitors for the most part. It's just unnecessary over-engineering by h&k then bribing when they loose the bid..

 

[Killbot]

Nothing just that it's a semi-auto so it's pretty much a dmr in my opinion, as all things German it might be over-engineered. Even the h&k 416 is pretty bulky compared to its competitors for the most part. It's just unnecessary over-engineering by h&k then bribing when they loose the bid..

Hmm. Yeah, you can say that.

Are you referring to the German army's G36 replacement fiasco? HK seem to have the army by the balls there..

 

[Lolwa]

Hmm. Yeah, you can say that.

Are you referring to the German army's G36 replacement fiasco? HK seem to have the army by the balls there..

I think most of their deals even outside Germany have h&k doing backhand deals to win. I heard that they bribed some guys in Saudi as well as screwing up the pdw calibre selection for nato since fn herstal won that one.
The latest case is just h&k being desperate since they have gone full corporate espionage and stuff to take out caracal out of the competition.
Also Their weird lack of interest in dealing with India also makes me think that part of the reason is being scared of getting blacklisted apart from the general political drama h&k is in now.

 

[Milspec]

It may have been good, but it was useless. Just like this JVPC. Why would anyone but SOF and executive protection personnel use it? And this abomination doesn't cut it for either role.

FAL was short stroke piston gun. Not known for its accuracy either. Neither Galil nor Sig 550 series are accurate either, per se. They are sure as hell a lot more ergonomic and comfortable to use.

The LSP is the worst.

Plus it is too big to be effectively concealed. There goes the one thing that could have gone its way: compact size. It is crap period.

Edit: The amogh was just an AK chambered in 5.56*30mm caliber.. Don't see how the design was 'good'.

Long Stroke Piston, is actually an incredible mechanism. It is ridiculously reliable, extremely easy to clean and collects most of the soot keeping your action very clean. BUT it's not optimal for a PDW.

I have shot the DSA FAL and they are vary accurate guns. I don't know where you got FAL's being inaccurate guns. aamof I prefer the DSA SA58 FAL over the PTR91 G3 with it's roller delayed mech.

 

[Milspec]

Funny how I thought fal was a long stroke piston all this time .The only short stroke piston of the era I knew to be used en-masse was the sks. And therefore the type 03 and type 95 were short stroke pistons for the chinese.The G3 was roller delayed blowback.

Though long stroke piston are comparitively not as accurate compared to short stroke they aren't inaccurate. DI continues to still rule the roost when it comes to accuracy and precision. Dragunov has a history of being used in dmr role so long stroke piston are not total shit.Same for the g3 with the psg and msg 90.


Long stroke piston have been used by majority of militaries since the 50's. It's far from a bad system and continues to be the most reliable out of all three systems. Though I agree jvpc is oversized compared to its peers. But the thing can be still hidden under traditional Kashmiri clothes that is where they will be used..

Also VZ58 in large use in the IA especially in CT ops, is a short-stroke design.

Only if Indian Army could get it's act together, Both Faxon ARAK and Robinson arms XCR could have been excellent contenders instead of that caracal BS scam that they are about to pull off.

 

[Lolwa]

Also VZ58 in large use in the IA especially in CT ops, is a short-stroke design.

Only if Indian Army could get it's act together, Both Faxon ARAK and Robinson arms XCR could have been excellent contenders instead of that caracal BS scam that they are about to pull off.

Fab defense has a pretty decent upgrade programme for the vz 58 too. I wonder why we haven't given fab a deal to upgrade all our old ak stocks en-masse. Would be much better than using the Insas.

If I had the choice I would have gone for the mcx for the carbine deal. It's Ar 15 style,pretty light design short stroke system made by a pretty good company. It's the next evolution of ar 15 style rifles so state of the art. Also can be changed to .300 blk with the upper. So spec ops special caliber requirement is also covered. Since sig was already selling us the 716 it would have gone pretty smoothly.

The smaller boutique firms rarely would interest the MoD otherwise we would have bought some units of the sr 25 by now. Even bangaladesh has inducted a bunch of sr 25's. Sadly most guys in the Army itself wouldn't know company's like Robinson, knights armament or pof..

 

[Killbot]

Long Stroke Piston, is actually an incredible mechanism. It is ridiculously reliable, extremely easy to clean and collects most of the soot keeping your action very clean. BUT it's not optimal for a PDW.

I have shot the DSA FAL and they are vary accurate guns. I don't know where you got FAL's being inaccurate guns. aamof I prefer the DSA SA58 FAL over the PTR91 G3 with it's roller delayed mech.

I never said it was inaccurate. I just said it was nowhere near the benchmark for accuracy. It is just like any other battle rifle of the time. And I've heard that RFI's SLRs have bad triggers.

Long stroke piston causes a large concussion, hence it isn't good for a PDW.

 

[Milspec]

I never said it was inaccurate. I just said it was nowhere near the benchmark for accuracy. It is just like any other battle rifle of the time. And I've heard that RFI's SLRs have bad triggers.

Long stroke piston causes a large concussion, hence it isn't good for a PDW.

That depends on what you are comparing it to.
It will never live up the accuracy of a DMR type config (Or even LMG type accuracy) Not many people realize this but LMG's are extremely accurate on Semi Auto.

I think it's high time, that IA bites the bullet and phases out 5.56Nato, 7.62x51N, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R for one single 6.5Grendel Caliber for 12"B CQB Carbines, 16"B GI Rifle, 20"B DMR, and LMG. If planned properly, 2-3 platforms can be housed on the same lower kit. All in the AR15 platform.
Induct HMG's and Antimaterial all in 12.7mm config. Spec ops and para can experiment with whatever they want like 6.5 lapua, 338 LM, 408 CT, 458 socom etc.

 

[Killbot]

I think it's high time, that IA bites the bullet and phases out 5.56Nato, 7.62x51N, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R for one single 6.5Grendel Caliber for 12"B CQB Carbines, 16"B GI Rifle, 20"B DMR, and LMG. If planned properly, 2-3 platforms can be housed on the same lower kit. All in the AR15 platform.
Induct HMG's and Antimaterial all in 12.7mm config. Spec ops and para can experiment with whatever they want like 6.5 lapua, 338 LM, 408 CT, 458 socom etc.

Absolutely. 6.5 Grendel shoots really flat and terminal energy loss is minimal. The recoil is also very low. The 123 gr load will have the muzzle energy of 7.62*39 Ball and much better aerodynamics owing to their length. It is a long thin bullet, much like the 5.45*39mm 7n6 load. It yaws wildly in soft tissue. Coupled with the penetration power of the 123gr load, it'll make for one amazing military cartridge. And for support weapons like MMG, Sniper rifle, etc, .338LM can be used with different cartridge loadings. Match grade and machine gun ammo. I don't think going for an AR-15 pattern LMG is wise. Something like the Sig NGSW LMG would be better imo.

Not many people realize this but LMG's are extremely accurate on Semi Auto.

Courtesy of heavy contour barrels. They not only dissipate heat easily, but also reduce recoil and ensure minimum point of aim-point of impact shift. That's why I was excited when Army ordered Negev NG-7s.

 

[Lolwa]

Absolutely. 6.5 Grendel shoots really flat and terminal energy loss is minimal. The recoil is also very low. The 123 gr load will have the muzzle energy of 7.62*39 Ball and much better aerodynamics owing to their length. It is a long thin bullet, much like the 5.45*39mm 7n6 load. It yaws wildly in soft tissue. Coupled with the penetration power of the 123gr load, it'll make for one amazing military cartridge. And for support weapons like MMG, Sniper rifle, etc, .338LM can be used with different cartridge loadings. Match grade and machine gun ammo. I don't think going for an AR-15 pattern LMG is wise. Something like the Sig NGSW LMG would be better imo

I personally feel that the guys in the army and MoD don't have any idea about the Grendel. Since they were pushing the 6.8 Remington SPC when Grendel already existed with much better ballistics.
Serbia has already started induction the 6.5 Grendel. This is the gun based on the acr made by zastava in 6.5..

 

[Killbot]

I personally feel that the guys in the army and MoD don't have any idea about the Grendel. Since they were pushing the 6.8 Remington SPC when Grendel already existed with much better ballistics.
Serbia has already started induction the 6.5 Grendel. This is the gun based on the acr made by zastava in 6.5..View attachment 18972

I guess thats because 6.8 SPC 2 has a higer muzzle velocity than 6.5 Grendel. Which translates to better penetration. But 6.5 Grendel with a hard AP steel core will do the job (penetration) just as well. 6.8 is also no slouch wrt ballistic coefficient. Lower than that of Grendel, but that's okay.

Besides if they know about SPC, they know about Grendel. Itll be somewhere on the first page on Google search..

Yeah, Serbia is definitely going in the right direction.