Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

Milspec said:
I can try.

Carbines traditionally were shorter lighter versions of rifles, they gained popularity during WWII, where say for the american troops, for a M1 Garand in 30.06 full size battle rifle you had a M1 carbine in 0.30.
View attachment 19285

30.06 vs .30 carbine
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Post WWII
This equation got a little muddled up with intermediate calibers which essenstially were shortened version of full size rifle cartridges, starting with 7.92x33 kurz, 7.62x39 (akm), and then a new cartridge derrived from the .223 the 5.56x45 Nato.

These could function very well as carbines, and were dubbed Assault rifles. They were all the craze back in the 60's but thier shortcommings started to show up post-vietnam. You cant beat physics, when you are working with smaller bullets or smaller charge, you will either get a terminal ballistic penalty or a range penalty. So now most of the armies depending on the type of war they were fighting, had to keep a full size battle rifle handy 7.62x51Nato, G3, Fal's, M14's, etc. (In India's case now the SLR's and now the Sig 7.62x51 rifle)

Coming back to carbines in it's modern iteration, the carbine is supposed to provide intermediate cartridge engeagement ranges, i.e upto 400m, in a light package, in total length of about 30-34". So a lot of rifles can be classifed to discharge this role.

Every AKM with 12" barrel, every AR platform with 12-14" barrel, and all the bullpups with even 18" barrels under the sun can be classified as carbines. But the bullpups with full length barrels might exceed the weight requirements.

Now coming back to the role of carbines and why IA needs them. Shorter Carbines are easier to travel with whether it's in a APC, or a IFV, or while jumping out of an aircraft. It's also easier to run patrols with, it is absolutely essential for urban combat. Screening up a staircase with a 12" barrel M4 or even a SMG is much more effective than running a 16-18" fullsize rifle.

Now coming to your specific query of 7.62x51 rifle vs the carbine.

lets take an example of M4 carbine vs the Sig 7.62x51 rifle. First the Sig is heavier, and runs a larger caliber, in an CT type urban fire fight where you are trying to screen a street or a part of forest cover it's much easier to manuever, and then if you do have to engage, a 5.56x45 Nato has almost negligible recoil impulse, compared to the 7.62x51. If you shoot a 7.62x51nato in close quarters you will most likely loose your sight picture and will have to re adjust to engage again. Now if you are using the same 7.62x51 from a significant distance that no longer is the issue. Full scale battle rifles are designed to engage hostile units from a distance of 200-300m, but more you reduce the stand off distance, you need systems that are more agile.

So it essentially comes down to type of environment you are in and the engament ranges you anticipate.

700-1200m ranges AMR, HMG, GPMG, Specialized Sniper Rifles (338, 416 stuff)
400-700 m ranges - LMG's, General Sniper Rifles, Optics mounted DMR's Bolt action Rifles Full size cartridges 300 Winmag, .308, .243 etc.
300- 600 m Ranges - Battle rifles, Assault rifles (Steyr Aug. M16, etc), Specialized DMR
100-300 m ranges - Assault rifles (AKM, insas, Galils) Carbines,
15-100 ranges - SMG's, PDW, pistol caliber carbines,
0-20 m ranges - Pistols, revolvers.

hope that helps.


One aspect we do have to account for is the continued development in Bullet dynamics and the advent of new cartridges which now bridge the gap between the intermediate and full size battle rifle cartridges like 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 spc and 6.5 Lapua. It is absolutely critical for the large armies around the world to be cognizant of such developments and plan accordingly. I have long argued that 6.5 Grendel is the right step in the future for the Indian forces. Imagine a Carbine that discharges the role of a battle rifle... That's what a modern cartridge can do for the indian forces. With one cartridge platform, remove 5.56 nato, 7.62 nato, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R from indian services.
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Sir! Thank you for you kind efforts to so meticulously explain the history, the genesis, the need in contemporary times as well as the pragmatic evolution the IA could (rather should) be a part of. This is indeed a collectors post and something I longed to understand for a long time. Have a pleasant Sunday.
 
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www.indiatoday.in

The firearms trap

India's armed forces suffer due to crippling dependence on whimsical global weapons manufacturers. Behind the crisis is the country's flawed firearms production-acquisition policy and low R&D.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in

Heckler & Kotch, FN Herstal walked out from IA deal.
Irony is that German government has sabotaged the H&K contract but they want us to buy German submarine through P75I program.
 
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Hydra said:
www.indiatoday.in

The firearms trap

India's armed forces suffer due to crippling dependence on whimsical global weapons manufacturers. Behind the crisis is the country's flawed firearms production-acquisition policy and low R&D.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in

Heckler & Kotch, FN Herstal walked out from IA deal.
Irony is that German government has sabotaged the H&K contract but they want us to buy German submarine through P75I program.
Click to expand...
IA singing, isme tera ghata, mera kuch nai jaata.
 
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Hydra said:
www.indiatoday.in

The firearms trap

India's armed forces suffer due to crippling dependence on whimsical global weapons manufacturers. Behind the crisis is the country's flawed firearms production-acquisition policy and low R&D.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in

Heckler & Kotch, FN Herstal walked out from IA deal.
Irony is that German government has sabotaged the H&K contract but they want us to buy German submarine through P75I program.
Click to expand...
H&k has already fallen from grace 416 has long been surpassed by the MCX.and dd mk18. Though scar h is a capability our paras need...
 
Lolwa said:
H&k has already fallen from grace 416 has long been surpassed by the MCX.and dd mk18. Though scar h is a capability our paras need...
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That can be filled with the Sig 716. The SCAR is a problem ridden, overpriced piece of trash.

It has reliability issues in high altitude, its rail is rickety i.e. optics cannot hold zero, its charging handle position is bad, and FNH is insistent on being a piece of shit.

I think its on a matter of time before Sigs see widespread service in Para SF.
 
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Killbot said:
That can be filled with the Sig 716. The SCAR is a problem ridden, overpriced piece of trash.

It has reliability issues in high altitude, its rail is rickety i.e. optics cannot hold zero, its charging handle position is bad, and FNH is insistent on being a piece of shit.

I think its on a matter of time before Sigs see widespread service in Para SF.
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If scar is bad why did IA choose that?
 
Killbot said:
That can be filled with the Sig 716. The SCAR is a problem ridden, overpriced piece of trash.

It has reliability issues in high altitude, its rail is rickety i.e. optics cannot hold zero, its charging handle position is bad, and FNH is insistent on being a piece of shit.

I think its on a matter of time before Sigs see widespread service in Para SF.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think so too. I hope the government invites sig to setup a factory so that they can offer their entire portfolio. Also we can replaceour pistols too with the m17. Them they have the mpx,mcx and their variety of sights and peripherals to offer.
 
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Hydra said:
If scar is bad why did IA choose that?
Click to expand...
No idea, actually. Vested interests could have played a role. Navy SEALs are really unhappy with the SCAR. So much so that they would rather use 5.56 M4s.
Lolwa said:
Yeah I think so too. I hope the government invites sig to setup a factory so that they can offer their entire portfolio. Also we can replaceour pistols too with the m17. Them they have the mpx,mcx and their variety of sights and peripherals to offer.
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Exactly. Army has/ will place an order for 70k more 716s. Bringing the total up to over 140k guns. There's a huge market for optics and peripheral equipment, and potential to sell to state police forces and CRPF as well. The 'Made in India' tag on their products will just boost their chances. Plus, we don't even know the total requirement for the Sig-716s, which means more could very well be ordered in the future.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1361444676960616450

Good news @Milspec

If you thought OFB produces trash, what will you call this bit of antique. I'm pretty sure my GF would've fired this in WW-2. Were he alive he would've confirmed it.
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I would call it an antique, collector's item. It's pedigree is unmatched. Webley Scott stuff is extremely overpriced, a used markIV can retail upwards of $1600, it stands up there with original single action colts. You would be surprised I have seen Mark IV with Calcutta police in use even now.

OFB has a great inglis Browning Hi-power clone, they should really look into resurrecting it. That thing can outshoot anything in the market today.
 
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Milspec said:
I would call it an antique, collector's item. It's pedigree is unmatched. Webley Scott stuff is extremely overpriced, a used markIV can retail upwards of $1600, it stands up there with original single action colts. You would be surprised I have seen Mark IV with Calcutta police in use even now.
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Yes, but they're planning to manufacture & sell it to armed forces out here. There's not much of a market for retail customers out here. Why would the armed forces pay top dollar for day before y'days stuff when a whole lot of contemporary arms are available. I mean if they ever grow nostalgic, there's always OFB to fall back on. Why W&S?
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Yes, but they're planning to manufacture & sell it to armed forces out here. There's not much of a market for retail customers out here. Why would the armed forces pay top dollar for day before y'days stuff when a whole lot of contemporary arms are available. I mean if they ever grow nostalgic, there's always OFB to fall back on. Why W&S?
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This is meant for retail consumers not armed forces, Modi govt passed a law allowing foreign companies to sell guns to Indian citizens in 2015 thus breaking the monopoly of sarkari companies selling crap to Indian citizens. That is why you are seeing Webly and Scott starting manufacturing via a JV with an Indian partner. Similarly other gun manufacturers like Colt are going to start selling guns to Indian citizens with a license:

www.hindustantimes.com

Make in India: In a first, citizens will buy Glock pistols armed forces use

The Tamil Nadu company has now set a target to sell the pistols to civilians by the end of March 2021.
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com

Indian gun owners and enthusiasts are very excited about these new options by different companies coming through in 2021, it was supposed to be in Q3 2020 but Covid happened. A nice forum for Indian gun enthusiasts:
 
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AbRaj said:
Sounds excellent
I mean “Desi SCAR”
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Some slight changes over the SCAR too. The charging handle has been moved a few inches ahead (seems to be reciprocating, wish they would make it non reciprocating i.e. not move along with bolt carrier group.)

I hope it does not function as shit as the SCAR. Latter has a myriad if issues. Like a rattling dust cover (bad for optics), crap in high altitude (build quality and metallurgy of the firing mechanism), charging handle position is crappy etc etc etc.
 
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I wish they could have done something like the mcx but just had barrel conversion. From an assualt rifle to carbine to dmr just changing the upper in 7.62x51 we should just switch to calibrate m43 and 7.62 nato..
 
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