Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Hydra]

Army to equip all infantry battalions, not just frontline troops, with US Sig Sauer rifles

At least 2 companies — about 100 soldiers each — in all infantry battalions are being given Sig 716, irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.

theprint.in

 

[AbRaj]

Army to equip all infantry battalions, not just frontline troops, with US Sig Sauer rifles

At least 2 companies — about 100 soldiers each — in all infantry battalions are being given Sig 716, irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.

theprint.in

Hope they choose Short stroke version next time instead of DI.

 

[Hydra]

Hope they choose Short stroke version next time instead of DI.

Is it even possible now? The AK203 is DI action i guess ( i m not sure), then i think our babus will not allow this. Also do u wany IA to induct FN SCAR ss version or ss version from sig?

 

[BlackAnt]

Hope they choose Short stroke version next time instead of DI.

modern DI is just as reliable as piston, and is lighter.
Di being less reliable is an outdated viewpoint.

 

[AbRaj]

Is it even possible now? The AK203 is DI action i guess ( i m not sure), then i think our babus will not allow this. Also do u wany IA to induct FN SCAR ss version or ss version from sig?

AKs are long stroke piston design.
SCAR-H overhyped and overpriced showpiece item that costs almost twice of almost similarly capable Sig-716 SS version.

modern DI is just as reliable as piston, and is lighter.
Di being less reliable is an outdated viewpoint.

Reliability, familiarity, ruggedness and maintainability wise.

 

[Milspec]

Is it even possible now? The AK203 is DI action i guess ( i m not sure), then i think our babus will not allow this. Also do u wany IA to induct FN SCAR ss version or ss version from sig?

All ak's Long stroke piston driven mechanism.

 

[Milspec]

modern DI is just as reliable as piston, and is lighter.
Di being less reliable is an outdated viewpoint.

Action type in general reliability
Blowback>Longstroke> Roller delayed> Short stroke>DI

But the reliability of specific firearms is to be considered. Not all Long strokes have the reliability of AKM neither are all AR15/10 pattern rifles built the same.
A well-made AR will be more reliable than a poorly made G3.

 

[Milspec]

AKs are long stroke piston design.
SCAR-H overhyped and overpriced showpiece item that costs almost twice of almost similarly capable Sig-716 SS version.

Reliability, familiarity, ruggedness and maintainability wise.

Reliability, familiarity, ruggedness, and maintainability wise. > It's quite hard to beat an AKM- not just 203, but any AKM.

It's a pity that CZ did not develop the VZ58 further and took the shortcut of the scar knockoff for their Bren.

 

[Hydra]

Action type in general reliability
Blowback>Longstroke> Roller delayed> Short stroke>DI

But the reliability of specific firearms is to be considered. Not all Long strokes have the reliability of AKM neither are all AR15/10 pattern rifles built the same.
A well-made AR will be more reliable than a poorly made G3.

IA given weightage for accuracy & sustained firing time over reliability by going sig sauer. The real question is do we need entire fleet if sig sauer or not or better version like FN-SCAR or cheap AK variant.

 

[Lolwa]

IA given weightage for accuracy & sustained firing time over reliability by going sig sauer. The real question is do we need entire fleet if sig sauer or not or better version like FN-SCAR or cheap AK variant.

Sig is good. You can replace DI parts to and unreliable is a little overrated because of modern techniques.SCAR-H would be most likely inferior to the sig in both accuracy and range. And make it standard issue is pretty logical and I hope they get the production rights here so that a DMR version can soon come only to be used by our forces.
Ak203 is there for the rest.
And I do hope the MCX wins the carbine tender and we also make deal for inducting .300 blk for PARA SF..
Sig also has the p365 which is inducted as the m17 in the U.S so we can even replace our standard issue pistol with 9mm 1a to a more modern and modular design..
The only fear is do we have the human resources to properly train our guys since looking from the photos it does feel like our soldiers are having a hard time adapting to a system like the ar10 and we still use the outdated Soviet posture forget C-clamp.

Our soldiers were not even using the standard posture but Soviet style posture when firing..

 

[AbRaj]

Sig is good. You can replace DI parts to and unreliable is a little overrated because of modern techniques.SCAR-H would be most likely inferior to the sig in both accuracy and range. And make it standard issue is pretty logical and I hope they get the production rights here so that a DMR version can soon come only to be used by our forces.
Ak203 is there for the rest.
And I do hope the MCX wins the carbine tender and we also make deal for inducting .300 blk for PARA SF..
Sig also has the p365 which is inducted as the m17 in the U.S so we can even replace our standard issue pistol with 9mm 1a to a more modern and modular design..
The only fear is do we have the human resources to properly train our guys since looking from the photos it does feel like our soldiers are having a hard time adapting to a system like the ar10 and we still use the outdated Soviet posture forget C-clamp.

Our soldiers were not even using the standard posture but Soviet style posture when firing..

That’s why they tend to tumble backwards on firing sig716 as it has greater blow back than AKs. You can see the same on some training videos posted here earlier.

Primitive thinking and practices are hardwired in Army brats. They think that Western Armies like US and UK are stupid when using modern arms and practices.

 

[Milspec]

IA given weightage for accuracy & sustained firing time over reliability by going sig sauer. The real question is do we need entire fleet if sig sauer or not or better version like FN-SCAR or cheap AK variant.

Well,
You can arm the entire infantry with any of the options and you would still have better firepower than the current state.

You get what you pay for. There is definitely scope for specialized units with options like Scar/Bren/tavor/M16 etc. and then standard issue AKM and Sig, and Vz58/AKM/Insas for TA, Paramil etc.

I hope some of the local law enforcement see this opportunity and try to procure surplus insas/VZ58 and SLR1A's that will float around the IA.

 

[AbRaj]

Well,
You can arm the entire infantry with any of the options and you would still have better firepower than the current state.

You get what you pay for. There is definitely scope for specialized units with options like Scar/Bren/tavor/M16 etc. and then standard issue AKM and Sig, and Vz58/AKM/Insas for TA, Paramil etc.

I hope some of the local law enforcement see this opportunity and try to procure surplus insas/VZ58 and SLR1A's that will float around the IA.

Is it possible to develop upgrade kit for INSAS similar to FAB Defence for AKs ?
I mean how hard or costly it’ll be ?

 

[Milspec]

Is it possible to develop upgrade kit for INSAS similar to FAB Defence for AKs ?
I mean how hard or costly it’ll be ?

insas's problems are not with it's ergonomics. Upgrading furniture will not solve its functional issues. It seems to have quite a few stove pipe, it's sensitive to ammunition, it might not be adequately gassed and in general, there are a lot of old vintage insas rifles which have run out of their barrel life.

 

[AbRaj]

insas's problems are not with it's ergonomics. Upgrading furniture will not solve its functional issues. It seems to have quite a few stove pipe, it's sensitive to ammunition, it might not be adequately gassed and in general, there are a lot of old vintage insas rifles which have run out of their barrel life.

So it was a bad design by DRDO.
And people say its OFB fault only.

 

[Milspec]

So it was a bad design by DRDO.
And people say its OFB fault only.

Well yes and No.

From basic design philosophy, I think it was a decent package. It used a great caliber for the design, it based it's action on a fantastic AKM platform and it utilized user inputs to improve upon the AKM using FN FAL ergonimics. People who designed it did everything right.

But then something happened and it stopped. The Insas LMG was not delivered in large quantities (an Insas version of RPK), they did not continue to develop cycle (Galil or Kalashnikov Ak74-100-101--103-105-12-15-17-18-200). They made the product and then a bunch of furniture upgrades but no real functional upgrades to the system. OFB never matured the insas into a word-class product. People thought of M16 as a turd when launched, but they kept at it, Moly van barrels, to pic rails, to optics, to side chargers to fresh calibers to different lenghths to make it today one of the largest used platforms in the world. ARDE and OFB failed the insas platform by their expected mediocrity.

Think of it like a Royal Enfield still stuck with 50's cast-iron block bullet, instead they phased that engine out, introduced UC aluminum block, then the electronic ignition followed by fuel injection and now a completely new engine. The company then expanded it's product family making it a world-class brand. That really is the way every established product should go about. Even ALH is good example to follow where HAL constantly has kept up the development cycle and it keeps yielding other fruits like LCH, ALH, Rudra, MRH etc.

 

[Killbot]

Is it even possible now? The AK203 is DI action i guess ( i m not sure), then i think our babus will not allow this. Also do u wany IA to induct FN SCAR ss version or ss version from sig?

AK's operate on long stroke piston. Making them heavier and less accurate, but reliable.

Rule of thumb:
Direct Impingement: lightest and most accurate and most prone to dirt getting in the system, affecting reliability.
Short Stroke Piston: Jack of all trades
Long stroke piston: least accurate, heavy. But dirt in the system does not matter too much.

So DI with regular cleaning would be best for a .308 cal battle rifle carrying more ammo. @AbRaj

IA given weightage for accuracy & sustained firing time over reliability by going sig sauer. The real question is do we need entire fleet if sig sauer or not or better version like FN-SCAR or cheap AK variant.

SCAR is a crap gun. AK is not accurate enough. The Sig is the best choice made by IA in forever.

 

[zapper]

Army to equip all infantry battalions, not just frontline troops, with US Sig Sauer rifles

At least 2 companies — about 100 soldiers each — in all infantry battalions are being given Sig 716, irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.

theprint.in

The dumbest aspect of this is to procure them in 3 different contracts all manufactured in the US. Assuming the 3rd order to be 72k rifles as well, that totals 216k Sig-716s with IA which could've license produced in India and we could've gotten em at a much cheaper rate and would've been a great learning experience for some private Indian defence firm. For instance, despite AK-203 costing around $1.1k, the royalty paid to Kalshnikov is only $82 per rifle

Expect the same dumb move for the carbines contract as well

 

[AbRaj]

AK's operate on long stroke piston. Making them heavier and less accurate, but reliable.

Rule of thumb:
Direct Impingement: lightest and most accurate and most prone to dirt getting in the system, affecting reliability.
Short Stroke Piston: Jack of all trades
Long stroke piston: least accurate, heavy. But dirt in the system does not matter too much.

So DI with regular cleaning would be best for a .308 cal battle rifle carrying more ammo. @AbRaj

SCAR is a crap gun. AK is not accurate enough. The Sig is the best choice made by IA in forever.

I think Sig 716 DI is procured keeping DMR role in mind. Only thing lacking is good 4x optics,bipods and cheek pad. I dont think barrel length would be an issue with 716 DI
Something like this

 

[AbRaj]

Well yes and No.

From basic design philosophy, I think it was a decent package. It used a great caliber for the design, it based it's action on a fantastic AKM platform and it utilized user inputs to improve upon the AKM using FN FAL ergonimics. People who designed it did everything right.

But then something happened and it stopped. The Insas LMG was not delivered in large quantities (an Insas version of RPK), they did not continue to develop cycle (Galil or Kalashnikov Ak74-100-101--103-105-12-15-17-18-200). They made the product and then a bunch of furniture upgrades but no real functional upgrades to the system. OFB never matured the insas into a word-class product. People thought of M16 as a turd when launched, but they kept at it, Moly van barrels, to pic rails, to optics, to side chargers to fresh calibers to different lenghths to make it today one of the largest used platforms in the world. ARDE and OFB failed the insas platform by their expected mediocrity.

Think of it like a Royal Enfield still stuck with 50's cast-iron block bullet, instead they phased that engine out, introduced UC aluminum block, then the electronic ignition followed by fuel injection and now a completely new engine. The company then expanded it's product family making it a world-class brand. That really is the way every established product should go about. Even ALH is good example to follow where HAL constantly has kept up the development cycle and it keeps yielding other fruits like LCH, ALH, Rudra, MRH etc.

Agreed regarding gradual upgrade of LCH by DRDO/HAL
MK1 cockpit - All analogue with HMDS

To

MK3- Fully Digital