Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Akhlys]

View attachment 19852

In here, we can see the soldiers (Ghataks, right?) equipped with:
1. MKU Mukut Helmet
2. Tactical Vests with plate inserts
3. Glock 17/19 or some other sidearm (FFBNW)
4. H&K MP9(?) with suppressors and flashlights
5. Tactical Eyewear
6. Tactical gloves, kneepads, elbowpads, boots, etc...
7. BEL NVDs
8. some Standard issue comms system

So I had a question...
In a similar setup, what other tactical equipment would the Americans or NATO forces or Russians have?
Thanks

In MOBO/SIBO situtations western nations tend to use similar, but more modern/expensive gear. All members of the stack will have NVGs, and some may have small UAVs or UGVs.

You'll also see collapsible ladders, grappling ropes and carbines, rather then PDWs or SMGs. Generally western SF have smaller plate carriers too, an often backpacks with medical gear, food and water, maps and additional rounds.

 

[SammyBoi]

In MOBO/SIBO situtations western nations tend to use similar, but more modern/expensive gear. All members of the stack will have NVGs, and some may have small UAVs or UGVs.

You'll also see collapsible ladders, grappling ropes and carbines, rather then PDWs or SMGs. Generally western SF have smaller plate carriers too, an often backpacks with medical gear, food and water, maps and additional rounds.

Thanks a lot bruh!

 

[SammyBoi]

A general query...
What, according to you guys, should be the standard loadout/kit of an IA soldier?
(And where these might be procured from, in the near future?)
Thanks!

 

[randomradio]

Brand new night vision technology.

 

[randomradio]

 

[Akhlys]

View attachment 19852

In here, we can see the soldiers (Ghataks, right?) equipped with:
1. MKU Mukut Helmet
2. Tactical Vests with plate inserts
3. Glock 17/19 or some other sidearm (FFBNW)
4. H&K MP9(?) with suppressors and flashlights
5. Tactical Eyewear
6. Tactical gloves, kneepads, elbowpads, boots, etc...
7. BEL NVDs
8. some Standard issue comms system

So I had a question...
In a similar setup, what other tactical equipment would the Americans or NATO forces or Russians have?
Thanks

Just to go a bit further, I'll give you a rundown of some of the non-standard gear my country's SF use. This is a standard loadout. HK416N or C8, NGVs, light plate carrier for mobility, lots of extra pouches, high cut tactical helmets, communications gear, headsets and microphones topped of with tactical clothing, usually from the Garm line. Most of our tactical gear comes from the Norwegian-owned NFM Group, which also supplies the French Army

Naturally we had out pick of firearms and accessories. Optics, battery packs, rifles, PDWs, precision fire, suppressors, flashlights, it changed from mission to mission. Often we went into theater with a mix so as not to over specialize.

We carried micro uavs like Black Hornet and micro AUGs for surveillance and reconnaissance.

In addition we now have quad-copter times UAVs.

Secure tablets or phones for GPS, intelligence and communication. Sometimes we'd carry laptops as well.

Two types of secure transponders (satcoms and radio)

At least one member would have high power binoculars and a bi/tripod. Watches, similar to the one shown below, were common, but we had license to pick our own.

Depending on the mission profile we could also carry supplementary oxygen and grappling devices or collapsible ladders.

We always had camelbacks, high luminescence glowsticks, zip-ties, rubber gloves, and gas masks. If needed light-weight rocket launchers and ballistic shields could be supplied. The designated medic would also carry EpiPen's, thermal or shock blankets, quick-acting blood clotting gels, pens or powders and string for suturing wounds. Marksman would have thermal jackets for long-periods waiting in adverse climates, low-gloss paint, a ballistic computer and pencils and paper for calculations. Our dog handler would have muzzles, an extra harness, leashes, toys and food for K9s. This is by no means an exhaustive list either. We had a lot of specialist gear at our disposal.

I cost the Norwegian government an average of 45,000 USD per person to equip us.

I, for a number of years served in a combat search and rescue unit and have been deployed across the world to various hotspots alongside some of Norway's top-tier special forces groups.

 

[randomradio]

Just to go a bit further, I'll give you a rundown of some of the non-standard gear my country's SF use. This is a standard loadout. HK416N or C8, NGVs, light plate carrier for mobility, lots of extra pouches, high cut tactical helmets, communications gear, headsets and microphones topped of with tactical clothing, usually from the Garm line. Most of our tactical gear comes from the Norwegian-owned NFM Group, which also supplies the French Army

Naturally we had out pick of firearms and accessories. Optics, battery packs, rifles, PDWs, precision fire, suppressors, flashlights, it changed from mission to mission. Often we went into theater with a mix so as not to over specialize.
View attachment 19873

We carried micro uavs like Black Hornet and micro AUGs for surveillance and reconnaissance.

In addition we now have quad-copter times UAVs.

Secure tablets or phones for GPS, intelligence and communication. Sometimes we'd carry laptops as well.View attachment 19871

Two types of secure transponders (satcoms and radio)
View attachment 19868

At least one member would have high power binoculars and a bi/tripod. Watches, similar to the one shown below, were common, but we had license to pick our own.
View attachment 19870

Depending on the mission profile we could also carry supplementary oxygen and grappling devices or collapsible ladders.
View attachment 19869

View attachment 19872

We always had camelbacks, high luminescence glowsticks, zip-ties, rubber gloves, and gas masks. If needed light-weight rocket launchers and ballistic shields could be supplied. The designated medic would also carry EpiPen's, thermal or shock blankets, quick-acting blood clotting gels, pens or powders and string for suturing wounds. Marksman would have thermal jackets for long-periods waiting in adverse climates, low-gloss paint, a ballistic computer and pencils and paper for calculations. Our dog handler would have muzzles, an extra harness, leashes, toys and food for K9s. This is by no means an exhaustive list either. We had a lot of specialist gear at our disposal.

I cost the Norwegian government an average of 45,000 USD per person to equip us.

I, for a number of years served in a combat search and rescue unit and have been deployed across the world to various hotspots alongside some of Norway's top-tier special forces groups.

What unit is this? Seems to be a dedicated SF unit.

Interestingly, if we spend the same amount on every Ghatak trooper, we are going to have to spend more than $300M on just 7000+ troops. And these are frontline troops.

 

[Akhlys]

Interestingly, if we spend the same amount on every Ghatak trooper, we are going to have to spend more than $300M on just 7000+ troops. And these are frontline troops.

You'd be either investing well into your troops or wasting money. These are our frontline soldiers (Telemark Battalion of the Norwegian Army) in a standard, urban operations outfitting.

Their equipment isn't too different from the pictures I posted above, is it? Different plate carriers and tactical clothing, Hk416 rather then C8, but otherwise nearly identical (they have, but aren't gearing their NVGs). One soldier has used a breaching charge, another has a rotary saw, crowbar, sledge hammer and mortar tube. Another medical supplies, one comms gear and another a collapsible ladder. Standard stuff for urban ops.

TMBN recon team.

Ideally this is what India's frontline units should look like, if it desires to bring them inline with Russian and Western Army units, but damn if it isn't expensive. Bringing SF or Army units inline with outfitting does reduce cost though, and of course each SF section will have some specialized gear, but it doesn't need to be too different from mainline units. Over equipping SF at the expense of Army units is just dumb.

...

German and Belgian infantry in forest camo for comparison.

What unit is this? Seems to be a dedicated SF unit.

FSK and MJK.

 

[jetray]

You'd be either investing well into your troops or wasting money. These are our frontline soldiers (Telemark Battalion of the Norwegian Army) in a standard, urban operations outfitting.

your view holds good especially for counter-terror units which do localized ops but in India these are deployed over vast area and are always deployed most of the time in more numbers. Economically we cant simply afford it. Just to give an example , price of glock pistol is more than monthly wage of an Indian soldier on the lower rung.

 

[randomradio]

You'd be either investing well into your troops or wasting money. These are our frontline soldiers (Telemark Battalion of the Norwegian Army) in a standard, urban operations outfitting.

View attachment 19878

Their equipment isn't too different from the pictures I posted above, is it? Different plate carriers and tactical clothing, Hk416 rather then C8, but otherwise nearly identical (they have, but aren't gearing their NVGs). One soldier has used a breaching charge, another has a rotary saw, crowbar, sledge hammer and mortar tube. Another medical supplies, one comms gear and another a collapsible ladder. Standard stuff for urban ops.

View attachment 19880

View attachment 19879

TMBN recon team.
View attachment 19882

View attachment 19881

Ideally this is what India's frontline units should look like, if it desires to bring them inline with Russian and Western Army units, but damn if it isn't expensive. Bringing SF or Army units inline with outfitting does reduce cost though, and of course each SF section will have some specialized gear, but it doesn't need to be too different from mainline units. Over equipping SF at the expense of Army units is just dumb.

...

German and Belgian infantry in forest camo for comparison.

View attachment 19883



FSK and MJK.

I think our objectives are better served by trying to out-equip our immediate adversaries instead of matching western armies. Modernisation for our entire army is going to take a decade, we have a pretty big plan there.

But the reason why our SF is over-equipped compared to the army is simply because of the sheer size of the army units and the time and resources needed to do it. Not to mention, while our SF gets priority upgrades, the army's upgrades get scuttled due to one reason or the other and this creates a significant disparity in equipment over time.

Also standardisation doesn't work in India between SF and regular units even within the army, never mind other SFs under different departments and services due to bureaucratic hurdles. Ridiculous amounts of over-the-top secrecy surrounding the SF also plays a part in preventing any sort of standardisation.

 

[Killbot]

But the reason why our SF is over-equipped compared to the army

No, they're not. The average SF soldier gets the same equipment as an infantry soldier, save for the primary weapon. With the advent of Sigs, even the weapon of an infantry soldier on LoC is better than most SF Bns.

 

[randomradio]

No, they're not. The average SF soldier gets the same equipment as an infantry soldier, save for the primary weapon. With the advent of Sigs, even the weapon of an infantry soldier on LoC is better than most SF Bns.

That's the small stuff, but the big ticket items like rifles and comm equipment makes the difference.

The new SIG purchase has somewhat equalised the infantry with the SF in some quarters. But the special forces upgrade quickly because equipment can be bought by the HQ commanders themselves with their own funds without having to navigate through the MoD. Like the very recent upgrade to FN SCAR, Mk 48 LMG, Browning HMG, respective sights and new gen NVGs for the para SFs.

We also bought Sako sniper rifles at a different time.

As mentioned, a lot of SF purchases are very small in value, so they easily escape media scrutiny or if the purchases are decided to be kept a secret, like the Sako.

There was also talk of getting some advanced comm systems as a stopgap until the TCS becomes available.

The only reason some sections of the infantry got new rifles is due to emergency purchases, ie, by not navigating through the MoD's labyrinth, but this is a special case, unlike the SF upgrades.

While earlier our SFs were under-equipped compared to their western counterparts, it's not the case now. But what's definitely missing is the aircraft support the westerners have, especially the Americans with their numerous armed drones and Ospreys, not to mention the support from combat jets. Nearly a decade ago, we were looking at acquiring 6 Ospreys for the army, but was shot down due to lack of money and politics. But at least we are getting armed drones. I hope our new SOCOM will bring in everything we need.

 

[Killbot]

That's the small stuff, but the big ticket items like rifles and comm equipment makes the difference.

Rifles have pretty much the same capability. Army bought a small number of .338LM rifles for the infantry back in jan 2020. There is a tender out for 5k+ such rifles, whose entrants are in testing.

As for comm equipment, IA is equipping infantry with SDRs.

Indian Army to procure Software Defined Radio for efficient data transmission and communication clarity in battlefield - ET Government

To arm the soldiers with advantages offered by technology and equip them to fight a war in the net–centric battle space, the existing radios are to be replaced soon by indigenously developed SDR.

government.economictimes.indiatimes.com

As mentioned, a lot of SF purchases are very small in value, so they easily escape media scrutiny or if the purchases are decided to be kept a secret, like the Sako.

Yeah, not really. An article from 2018:

Indian elite forces get big upgrade with new snipers, underwater 'chariots'

Multiple contracts worth billions of rupees have already been inked to equip the Army's Para-SF, Navy's Marcos and IAF's Garuds

www.business-standard.com

While earlier our SFs were under-equipped compared to their western counterparts, it's not the case now. But what's definitely missing is the aircraft support the westerners have, especially the Americans with their numerous armed drones and Ospreys, not to mention the support from combat jets. Nearly a decade ago, we were looking at acquiring 6 Ospreys for the army, but was shot down due to lack of money and politics. But at least we are getting armed drones. I hope our new SOCOM will bring in everything we need.

They are still very much underequipped

best pic of our SF:

Green Beret in Syria:

And armed drones being used in conjunction with SF is not gonna happen anytime soon. Neither is 'our SOCOM'. Ospreys aren't coming either. Our SF still has a ways to go. They don't even have decent night fighting capabilities.

@Parthu can elaborate.

 

[randomradio]

Rifles have pretty much the same capability. Army bought a small number of .338LM rifles for the infantry back in jan 2020. There is a tender out for 5k+ such rifles, whose entrants are in testing.

As for comm equipment, IA is equipping infantry with SDRs.

Indian Army to procure Software Defined Radio for efficient data transmission and communication clarity in battlefield - ET Government

To arm the soldiers with advantages offered by technology and equip them to fight a war in the net–centric battle space, the existing radios are to be replaced soon by indigenously developed SDR.

government.economictimes.indiatimes.com

Yeah, not really. An article from 2018:

Indian elite forces get big upgrade with new snipers, underwater 'chariots'

Multiple contracts worth billions of rupees have already been inked to equip the Army's Para-SF, Navy's Marcos and IAF's Garuds

www.business-standard.com

They are still very much underequipped

best pic of our SF:
View attachment 19913


Green Beret in Syria:
View attachment 19912

And armed drones being used in conjunction with SF is not gonna happen anytime soon. Neither is 'our SOCOM'. Ospreys aren't coming either. Our SF still has a ways to go. They don't even have decent night fighting capabilities.

@Parthu can elaborate.

I don't know if I would call that underequipped, they look fine. Primarily missing comm systems and the new program should take care of that.

But they do have night fighting capabilities, you probably haven't yet seen it. The problem is we only see them in bits and pieces, almost never fully kitted out.

But yeah, the aircraft support, as I mentioned, is gonna take time, but it's happening to some extent. And not everybody has Ospreys, only the US and Japan operate it. The rest use helicopters.

Our SOCOM is brand new, gotta see what it will look like after the threaterisation begins.

 

[Parthu]

I don't know if I would call that underequipped, they look fine. Primarily missing comm systems and the new program should take care of that.

But they do have night fighting capabilities, you probably haven't yet seen it. The problem is we only see them in bits and pieces, almost never fully kitted out.
View attachment 19914

But yeah, the aircraft support, as I mentioned, is gonna take time, but it's happening to some extent. And not everybody has Ospreys, only the US and Japan operate it. The rest use helicopters.

Our SOCOM is brand new, gotta see what it will look like after the threaterisation begins.

Like Killbot said above, once you minus the weapon our SFs really don't have any gear or equipment that puts them at a notch above the regulars. A Ghatak/RR unit is easily equivalent in most respects, and certain MHA units like CRPF QRT are actually superior in some.

Areas primarily lacking:

Plate Carriers - There is no standardized adoption of lightweight PCs that allow for maximum user comfort & freedom of movement, optimized placement of mags & equipment and protection for vital organs in upper torso, such as Crye AVS. 90% of SF operators are still equipped with FLCs (some with plates, some not), which are poorly designed for rapid mag changes, sag down heavily often leaving vital organs exposed, and are simply mighty uncomfortable. These are likes of USSOCOM kit from pre-WOT days. Did not incorporate any of the lessons learnt from global SOF experiences in the last 20+ years despite multiple joint exercises with US SOF every year.

Comms/SDRs we already went over...SFs basically have very little that regulars don't have in that regard.

Hearing Protection/Tactical Headsets - Having a modern SDR is one thing, plugging it into some outdated commercial in-ear device is another drawback entirely. We have totally ignored adoption of likes of Peltor COMTAC or its more modern contemporaries like Revision ComCentr2 or OpsCore RAC which can provide active noise control (ensuring communications stay crisp & audible even during heavy gunfire, and provide hearing protection against high-decible noises like gunfire & explosions. Prolonging the operator's hearing acuity & preventing them from suffering early hearing loss which is common among anyone who endures such noises on a daily basis).

Night Vision Systems - There is a severe shortage of night fighting equipment in both SOFs & CI/CTs - I have this from Avinash of 11 Para. There is a reason why even to this day, the SOP in J&K is to wait till daybreak before proceeding with operations against a cordoned-off building (giving adequate time for stone-pelters to gather, btw). And the reason is best illustrated by the pic you posted itself - even the NVGs we do have are pi$$-poor PVS-7 analogues with a 40* FoV and more importantly, Zero peripheral vision (thanks to bi-ocular setup), entirely unsuitable for any kind of high-speed CQC action. They were meant for Infantry use and they're the same types used by our regulars. No wonder SFs don't want to get into a house intervention at night if they can avoid it. And the few types of NVGs we do have which can be used for such operations relatively well, like the N/SEAS monocular NVG, are too few in number to develop SF-wide SOPs around them. We can't get anywhere without adoption of a modern binocular NVG (PVS-15 or PVS-31 equivalent, like Tonbo Imaging BNVD) in large numbers.

Way I see it - there's 3 things that make Special Forces special:

How you train them, how you equip them & how you employ them.

The first I'd think we have got covered (with caveats*), the second just barely, and the third - well in the words of Lt. gen. Prakash Katoch, we like to use our SFs like "Super Infantry" instead of a proper modern SOF role.

* - Lack of certain pieces of equipment precludes certain aspects of training from being effectively conducted. Like mentioned above.

The 3rd thing that makes SFs special MAY (its a big may) be fixed with emergence of Theatre commands & AFSOD and its resultant command structure down the line (hopefully an Indian SOCOM)...but what will fix the 2nd thing I have no idea.

 

[SammyBoi]

...and certain MHA units like CRPF QRT are actually superior in some.

I consider the NSG to be most standardised and most properly equipped for the jobs they were meant to do...
Here is a Quora answer from Harsh B. Mishra from a couple years ago... Kindly tell how much of it is accurate....

In 2008, NSG lacked proper battle gear and were saddled with old Body Armor and Helmets which were ineffective against AK-rounds. They lacked Night Vision Goggles like other Top-Tier units around the world , Communication Sets , Ballistic Shields and ineffective weapons like old MP-5 SMGs without optical sights . They also lacked proper intelligence to conduct the operations leaving the men on ground clueless about whom they were fighting.

After 26/11 , an elaborate plan was develop to modernize the NSG as a Top-Tier Force to battle terrorism . Crores of Rupees were now spent on training and equipping NSG with modern firearms and new battle gear. The older MP-5 Submachine Guns were replaced by newer MP5A5 Submachine Guns with Picatinny Rails to mount tactical flashlights and Zeiss Red Dot Sights. Assault Rifles and Carbines were purchased from SIG Sauer like SG553SB/LB and SG551SB. New Glock pistols and Plastic Explosives along with advanced breaching charges were bought to allow NSG , a decisive edge during combat.

In addition , NSG also invested upon acquiring Armored Vehicles like Renault Sherpa 2 to allow them approach hot fight zones safely . NSG also bought Mobile Adjustable Ramp Systems ( MARS ) to be used upon Sherpas and Ford 550 Vehicles to allow them assault elevated positions during room interventions and Anti-Hijackings.

NSG also purchased New 3rd Generation Passive Night Vision Devices like AN/PVS-14 , TASL PNVD and BEL Passive Night Vision Goggles to make them a combat effective force even in dark conditions. Better Radio Sets and Communication Devices were bought along with new custom-made Advanced Combat Helmets ( with visor clamps and rails ) and Plate Carriers thus improving the personal gear of each operative by a high magnitude.

Ballistic Shields which can bear the brunt of small arms fire allowing the assault team to approach , were also purchased along with Wall Penetrating Radars to look behind hardened structures and CornerShot Weapon Accessories to allow the operatives to shoot behind the corner.

Belgian Malinois Dog Breed was also inducted into NSG which is regarded as one of the best sniffer dog breed. New Unmanned Ground Vehicles like DOGO Tactical Combat Robots and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles like PD-100 and Quadcopters were also purchased to provide Unmanned surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities.

In addition , newer Sniper Rifles like PSG1A1 and Barrett M98B has also been inducted for effective long range sniping. Optical Sights like Red Dots and ACOG has been made standard for personal weapons . Shotguns like SPAS-15 has been inducted to replace older SPAS-13 Shotguns. Knee and Elbow Pads along with Gloves and Tactical Eyewear has been made standard. NSG has also procured MedEng EOD Suits for its Bomb Disposal Team Personnels . In addition , NSG has also set up a Marine Wing composed of commandos who can undertake underwater operations equipped with Assault Rifles / SMGs and Closed in Circuit Rebreathers. Advanced multipurpose binoculars , laser designators and spotter scopes have been procured.

A change has also been witnessed in NSG training module. NSG personnel know have to undergo internationally acclaimed Vienna Test which replaces the Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR) Military Psychology Test , NSG applicants previously used to undergo. New Firing Ranges from Aimtrex and Training Establishments have also been emphasized upon to allow the Commandos train itself to battle potential situations.

NSG also has increased its interaction with other domestic and international units. NSG has stepped in interacting with State Commando Units and other Special Forces/SWAT units like Delhi Police SWAT , MARCOS and even International Special Forces units like US Army Green Berets and Thai Army Special Forces. NSG also conducts more mock drills around the country to make it an combat effective force in the rising threat of terrorism.

To make , NSG a pan-India force , multiple hubs were established around the nation. NSG hubs are established at Chennai , Mumbai , Hyderabad , Kolkata and Hyderabad which aims to rush the commandos in quick time for counter-hikack and counter it error iam operation.

 

[randomradio]

Like Killbot said above, once you minus the weapon our SFs really don't have any gear or equipment that puts them at a notch above the regulars. A Ghatak/RR unit is easily equivalent in most respects, and certain MHA units like CRPF QRT are actually superior in some.

Areas primarily lacking:

Plate Carriers - There is no standardized adoption of lightweight PCs that allow for maximum user comfort & freedom of movement, optimized placement of mags & equipment and protection for vital organs in upper torso, such as Crye AVS. 90% of SF operators are still equipped with FLCs (some with plates, some not), which are poorly designed for rapid mag changes, sag down heavily often leaving vital organs exposed, and are simply mighty uncomfortable. These are likes of USSOCOM kit from pre-WOT days. Did not incorporate any of the lessons learnt from global SOF experiences in the last 20+ years despite multiple joint exercises with US SOF every year.

Comms/SDRs we already went over...SFs basically have very little that regulars don't have in that regard.

Hearing Protection/Tactical Headsets - Having a modern SDR is one thing, plugging it into some outdated commercial in-ear device is another drawback entirely. We have totally ignored adoption of likes of Peltor COMTAC or its more modern contemporaries like Revision ComCentr2 or OpsCore RAC which can provide active noise control (ensuring communications stay crisp & audible even during heavy gunfire, and provide hearing protection against high-decible noises like gunfire & explosions. Prolonging the operator's hearing acuity & preventing them from suffering early hearing loss which is common among anyone who endures such noises on a daily basis).

Night Vision Systems - There is a severe shortage of night fighting equipment in both SOFs & CI/CTs - I have this from Avinash of 11 Para. There is a reason why even to this day, the SOP in J&K is to wait till daybreak before proceeding with operations against a cordoned-off building (giving adequate time for stone-pelters to gather, btw). And the reason is best illustrated by the pic you posted itself - even the NVGs we do have are pi$$-poor PVS-7 analogues with a 40* FoV and more importantly, Zero peripheral vision (thanks to bi-ocular setup), entirely unsuitable for any kind of high-speed CQC action. They were meant for Infantry use and they're the same types used by our regulars. No wonder SFs don't want to get into a house intervention at night if they can avoid it. And the few types of NVGs we do have which can be used for such operations relatively well, like the N/SEAS monocular NVG, are too few in number to develop SF-wide SOPs around them. We can't get anywhere without adoption of a modern binocular NVG (PVS-15 or PVS-31 equivalent, like Tonbo Imaging BNVD) in large numbers.

Way I see it - there's 3 things that make Special Forces special:

How you train them, how you equip them & how you employ them.

The first I'd think we have got covered (with caveats*), the second just barely, and the third - well in the words of Lt. gen. Prakash Katoch, we like to use our SFs like "Super Infantry" instead of a proper modern SOF role.

* - Lack of certain pieces of equipment precludes certain aspects of training from being effectively conducted. Like mentioned above.

The 3rd thing that makes SFs special MAY (its a big may) be fixed with emergence of Theatre commands & AFSOD and its resultant command structure down the line (hopefully an Indian SOCOM)...but what will fix the 2nd thing I have no idea.

I don't think the second one is a big problem.

https://twitter.com/x/status/977747972753711104

Modern plate carriers have already been developed. The last I heard SMPP and DRDO have both developed BPJs that can stop sniper rifles with Level 4 and multiple steel core rounds of the AK-47 with Level III+. I'm sure that has already reached the SF, not just the army. The DRDO vest is from last month and weighs 9Kg for Level 4 protection.

Upcoming comm systems are covered under a lot of secrecy. Manpack SDR meant to be carried by soldiers is now under Make II with 18 Indian companies taking part. It began a few months ago. So this is gonna go to the entire army eventually once it's ready.

Yeah, I agree with the employment part of the SF. I hope the AFSOD takes care of that. Due to the specific makeup of ground forces, SF within the army ends up being used as a glorified foot soldier due to the tactical nature of the army. Even the navy is largely the same. Only the air force is capable of thinking strategically, and for some reason they haven't done a lot towards developing SF capability, at least based on what I know. And I hope the AFSOD, which doesn't have to support army formations or naval missions in achieving tactical gains, end up being employed in the actual missions SFs are supposed to do.

 

[Parthu]

I don't think the second one is a big problem.

View attachment 19918

View attachment 19919

https://twitter.com/x/status/977747972753711104

Modern plate carriers have already been developed. The last I heard SMPP and DRDO have both developed BPJs that can stop sniper rifles with Level 4 and multiple steel core rounds of the AK-47 with Level III+. I'm sure that has already reached the SF, not just the army. The DRDO vest is from last month and weighs 9Kg for Level 4 protection.

Upcoming comm systems are covered under a lot of secrecy. Manpack SDR meant to be carried by soldiers is now under Make II with 18 Indian companies taking part. It began a few months ago. So this is gonna go to the entire army eventually once it's ready.

Yeah, I agree with the employment part of the SF. I hope the AFSOD takes care of that. Due to the specific makeup of ground forces, SF within the army ends up being used as a glorified foot soldier due to the tactical nature of the army. Even the navy is largely the same. Only the air force is capable of thinking strategically, and for some reason they haven't done a lot towards developing SF capability, at least based on what I know. And I hope the AFSOD, which doesn't have to support army formations or naval missions in achieving tactical gains, end up being employed in the actual missions SFs are supposed to do.

It's a big problem if you consider longevity of an operator's combat-effectiveness. Not to mention its the whole point behind creation of high-cut helmets (to accommodate the headsets). If you're not going to adopt those headsets, then by going with high-cuts (like the TeamWendy EXFILs in pics above) you are literally being counter-productive - by reducing the area of ballistic protection around the ears. Might as well go with a full-cut shell to trade in some extra protection at least.

As of the Thermal sights - simply put, you cannot substitute Image-Intensifier (I2)-based night vision with Thermal Imaging. There's a reason why even JSOC units with billions in budgets prefer I2-based Night vision for 90% of use-cases, with TI only being brought in for the 10% of tasks that require searching for targets from a stationary position. I2 is the preferred solution for:

Land Navigation : You could be staring at a 50-foot drop in front of you in TI and not even know it unless the temperature variance between the edge of cliff & the bottom is significant enough. Will be stumbling over rocks, tree stumps etc. all the time.

High Speed room clearing : Because TI goggles/scopes generate images digitally, there is a noticeable blur (gamers will know this as 'ghosting') in the picture in any fast movement of the imager, especially on lower-spec models with less powerful processors. I2 is optical, so no problem there.

Driving : TI's ability to see through glass is poor. No-no for stealthy night driving (lights off) for SOFs with these.

Shooting & Aiming : When relying on I2 NVGs especially in CQC, the usual practice is not to aim down the sights, but to hold the gun slightly offset & lower from your usual sightline, and rely on the IR laser in your Laser-aiming device (like PEQ-15) to show you (through I2 NVG) where you're aiming. This is the most comfortable & fastest method in CQC. Somewhat like this:

Through helmet-mounted TI night vision, this is obviously not possible because the IR laser won't show up as well (heat vs light) and even if it does it'll be a white dot on a white target (or black on black), not very useful.

You cannot even use regular holographic/reflex sights to aim (like you can with an I2 NVG) because like I said, can't see through glass really well either. Only solution would possibly be to mount a TI on the helmet (to acquire the target) and a TI on the weapon (to shoot). It just complicates things, and you still have to deal with the other problems mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong - TI is excellent and it has its place, especially when it comes to finding concealed enemies (perhaps useful at & around LoC which is why we use it there). But it cannot replace I2 for SOF use.

What CAN replace I2 however, is this - a 'fused' sight with a TI output overlayed on top of a I2 phosphor screen :

Best of both worlds - Tonbo Imaging already has products ready with this technology in the static/tripod-mounted roles, but far as I know, is still working on getting it into mobile helmet-mounted & weapon-mounted sights. Some examples of helmet goggles with this tech already in play are the AN/PSQ-20 ENVG as well as the latest iteration of GPNVG-18:

The "5th" lens on top is the TI imager.

As of vests, I'm not talking about the Plates at all - I'm talking about the Plate CARRIER i.e. the fabric garment that contains the plates. The DRDO & SMPP BPJs are irrelevant to this discussion - they are meant for infantry use and are equivalent of the US Army's IOTV system. I'm talking about SF plate carriers which are much smaller, lighter & have far less fabric (to allow more freedom of movement). Look up differences between IOTV & Crye Precision AVS and you'll know what I mean. The kind of plate carriers I'm talking about don't even cover the full torso, only the parts that are absolutely necessary - like the vital organs.

Closest Indian-made example would be the SF RIG from Armasen Tactical:

Tactical Vest Plate Carrier - SF RIG - Armasen Tactical India.

Tactical Plate Carrier Vest for operations where Speed, Protection & Ergonomics are vital. Holds Square & Shooters Cut Bulletproof Plates.

www.armasentactical.com

 

[randomradio]

It's a big problem if you consider longevity of an operator's combat-effectiveness. Not to mention its the whole point behind creation of high-cut helmets (to accommodate the headsets). If you're not going to adopt those headsets, then by going with high-cuts (like the TeamWendy EXFILs in pics above) you are literally being counter-productive - by reducing the area of ballistic protection around the ears. Might as well go with a full-cut shell to trade in some extra protection at least.

As of the Thermal sights - simply put, you cannot substitute Image-Intensifier (I2)-based night vision with Thermal Imaging. There's a reason why even JSOC units with billions in budgets prefer I2-based Night vision for 90% of use-cases, with TI only being brought in for the 10% of tasks that require searching for targets from a stationary position. I2 is the preferred solution for:

Land Navigation : You could be staring at a 50-foot drop in front of you in TI and not even know it unless the temperature variance between the edge of cliff & the bottom is significant enough. Will be stumbling over rocks, tree stumps etc. all the time.

High Speed room clearing : Because TI goggles/scopes generate images digitally, there is a noticeable blur (gamers will know this as 'ghosting') in the picture in any fast movement of the imager, especially on lower-spec models with less powerful processors. I2 is optical, so no problem there.

Driving : TI's ability to see through glass is poor. No-no for stealthy night driving (lights off) for SOFs with these.

Shooting & Aiming : When relying on I2 NVGs especially in CQC, the usual practice is not to aim down the sights, but to hold the gun slightly offset & lower from your usual sightline, and rely on the IR laser in your Laser-aiming device (like PEQ-15) to show you (through I2 NVG) where you're aiming. This is the most comfortable & fastest method in CQC. Somewhat like this:

Through helmet-mounted TI night vision, this is obviously not possible because the IR laser won't show up as well (heat vs light) and even if it does it'll be a white dot on a white target (or black on black), not very useful.

You cannot even use regular holographic/reflex sights to aim (like you can with an I2 NVG) because like I said, can't see through glass really well either. Only solution would possibly be to mount a TI on the helmet (to acquire the target) and a TI on the weapon (to shoot). It just complicates things, and you still have to deal with the other problems mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong - TI is excellent and it has its place, especially when it comes to finding concealed enemies (perhaps useful at & around LoC which is why we use it there). But it cannot replace I2 for SOF use.

What CAN replace I2 however, is this - a 'fused' sight with a TI output overlayed on top of a I2 phosphor screen :

Best of both worlds - Tonbo Imaging already has products ready with this technology in the static/tripod-mounted roles, but far as I know, is still working on getting it into mobile helmet-mounted & weapon-mounted sights. Some examples of helmet goggles with this tech already in play are the AN/PSQ-20 ENVG as well as the latest iteration of GPNVG-18:

The "5th" lens on top is the TI imager.

I'm not trying to compare the two. Just pointing out we get to know these things so much later than it actually happens. The pics I posted is from Ghatak platoons, and they are not even SF.

Some equipment is actually really difficult to purchase due to costs, like the quad NVGs. Even 100-200 of those end up costing half a mil. Some day we will be expected to get HMDS for infantry as well. So this never ends. We don't even know if these technologies have been operationally tested. So right now most discussions are centered around accessorising soldiers rather than giving them equipment that's actually proven to work in the field. The fact is something new always comes out every few years when it comes to infantry equipment.

The last I heard para SF is chasing after the PVS-15. And what the Garuds and MARCOS are chasing after is completely unknown. And SFF is like a complete enigma. And then we still need to see if the AFSOD will ultimately standardise or if all three units under them will bring their own stuff in, I hope not. But one good thing is the SF need a dedicated budget and the AFSOD brings that to the table.

The last 2 years have been interesting due to emergency procurement since very little has actually come out in the media. So a lot of the answers people are looking for is hidden there. In terms of procurement, for the SF, a major game changer was the introduction of the new rule up to 500Cr. This allows them to buy anything they want in large numbers without the media getting wind of it.

As of vests, I'm not talking about the Plates at all - I'm talking about the Plate CARRIER i.e. the fabric garment that contains the plates. The DRDO & SMPP BPJs are irrelevant to this discussion - they are meant for infantry use and are equivalent of the US Army's IOTV system. I'm talking about SF plate carriers which are much smaller, lighter & have far less fabric (to allow more freedom of movement). Look up differences between IOTV & Crye Precision AVS and you'll know what I mean. The kind of plate carriers I'm talking about don't even cover the full torso, only the parts that are absolutely necessary - like the vital organs.

View attachment 19920

Closest Indian-made example would be the SF RIG from Armasen Tactical:

Tactical Vest Plate Carrier - SF RIG - Armasen Tactical India.

Tactical Plate Carrier Vest for operations where Speed, Protection & Ergonomics are vital. Holds Square & Shooters Cut Bulletproof Plates.

www.armasentactical.com

Is there something specific you are referring to about plate carriers then? 'Cause I thought you were referring to protection levels. I hope you are not referring to ergonomics, since everybody has their own opinion on that. But yeah, whatever we need has to be tailor-made specific to our use. What western armies have been doing since WOT, our army has been doing for a lot longer, and in different terrains compared to them. So what works for our army can end up being different from what you have in mind.

Anyway, I recall that para units started receiving new plate carriers in 2016 or 2017 and now the infantry is getting the same.

 

[Parthu]

I'm not trying to compare the two. Just pointing out we get to know these things so much later than it actually happens. The pics I posted is from Ghatak platoons, and they are not even SF.

Some equipment is actually really difficult to purchase due to costs, like the quad NVGs. Even 100-200 of those end up costing half a mil. Some day we will be expected to get HMDS for infantry as well. So this never ends. We don't even know if these technologies have been operationally tested. So right now most discussions are centered around accessorising soldiers rather than giving them equipment that's actually proven to work in the field. The fact is something new always comes out every few years when it comes to infantry equipment.

The last I heard para SF is chasing after the PVS-15. And what the Garuds and MARCOS are chasing after is completely unknown. And SFF is like a complete enigma. And then we still need to see if the AFSOD will ultimately standardise or if all three units under them will bring their own stuff in, I hope not. But one good thing is the SF need a dedicated budget and the AFSOD brings that to the table.

The last 2 years have been interesting due to emergency procurement since very little has actually come out in the media. So a lot of the answers people are looking for is hidden there. In terms of procurement, for the SF, a major game changer was the introduction of the new rule up to 500Cr. This allows them to buy anything they want in large numbers without the media getting wind of it.



Is there something specific you are referring to about plate carriers then? 'Cause I thought you were referring to protection levels. I hope you are not referring to ergonomics, since everybody has their own opinion on that. But yeah, whatever we need has to be tailor-made specific to our use. What western armies have been doing since WOT, our army has been doing for a lot longer, and in different terrains compared to them. So what works for our army can end up being different from what you have in mind.

Anyway, I recall that para units started receiving new plate carriers in 2016 or 2017 and now the infantry is getting the same.

Ignore the quad-NODs, reserve them for elite Tier-1 style units under AFSOD or for NSG. Anyway we have indigenous alternatives (much cheaper) in the form of Tonbo BNVD-P:

Already adopted in small quantity (probably for testing) by CRPF QRT in J&K:

For the rest of the Paras, MARCOS & Garuds a simple, proven binocular NVG like PVS-15 (or Tonbo BNVD) is what's needed and unfortunately so far, not seen with them.

As of the plate carriers, I've already made it as clear as I can in the post before.

Yes it's true that we've been engaged in a WOT/COIN type fight for a very long time but the lessons are hardly if ever integrated into procurement. Like I said before - the NVGs are a perfect example. Despite knowing for decade-plus that the ecosystem in J&K is exploiting the overnight-cordon SOP and allowing targets to get away, no effort is made to change this and instead go for forcible entry at night itself.

In Iraq/Afg, SOCOM/JSOC units operate almost exclusively at night (unless mission is time-critical or otherwise dictates daylight) - pressing their advantage with night vision and tilting the odds in their favour in any possible firefight. And then there's us - who, for a lack of equipment, are forced to practice a modern-day equivalent of ceasing fighting at night, as was the case in likes of Kurukshetra. This is a laughable situation and with US withdrawal from Afg - one that will bite us in the a$$ very soon.