Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Tatvamasi]

Solar Industries to deliver first lot of 40,000 grenades to Indian Army

CENTRAL Government’s bold decision to open up the ammunition manufacturing sector for private agencies is paying rich dividends as the Indian Army is all set to receive the first consignment of high quality grenades manufactured by Nagpur-based Economic Explosives Limited. It is for the first...

www.thehitavada.com

CENTRAL Government’s bold decision to open up the ammunition manufacturing sector for private agencies is paying rich dividends as the Indian Army is all set to receive the first consignment of high quality grenades manufactured by Nagpur-based Economic Explosives Limited. It is for the first time in the Indian history a private company is manufacturing ammunition for the Armed Forces. Economic Explosives Limited, a subsidiary of Solar Industries India Limited, was recently awarded the contract of manufacturing 10 lakh grenades worth Rs 400 crore for the Indian Army. The first consignment of 40,000 Multi-Mode Hand Grenades (MMHG) will replace the British era vintage hand grenades being used by the country’s Army till date.

Armed Forces in many Commonwealth Nations, including India, are still using the vintage hand grenades designed by the British way back in 1915. The new MMHG is designed jointly by the Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL), a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Economic Explosives Limited. Anmol Rathi, Deputy General Manager of the company, told ‘The Hitavada’ on Saturday that a team of senior officers of DRDO and other concerned agencies would soon conduct a pre-delivery inspection of the consignment and pave way for material dispatch. It will happen within the next 8 to 10 days, he said. Highlighting the salient features of the MMHG, Rathi said that the grenades offer numerous advantages to soldiers in terms of safety and lethality compared to the vintage hand grenades. The new grenades come with dual mode – defensive and offensive. In defensive mode, the grenade is assembled with its fragmenting sleeve.

This mode is used while the soldier is in shelter and the enemy is in the open area. Its lethal radius is achieved up to eight meters from the point of burst. In the offensive mode, the grenade is without its fragmenting sleeve and is used for low intensity conflict as it offers stunning effect. The mode is used when the soldier is in attacking mode and its lethal radius is up to five meters from the point of burst. Besides, they are lightweight and can be primed and unprimed many times without affecting the functional efficiency. Until a decade ago, ammunition manufacturing was in the sole domain of Government agencies and it was beyond the imagination that the private sector could foray into this field. But the glass ceiling was broken by Solar Group in the year 2015 by entering into the field of ammunition manufacturing for defence.

Indonesia to buy grenades from Solar Industries Impressed by the safety and lethality of Multi Mode Hand Grenades, many foreign countries are showing interest in the product made by the Indian private company. Some have already started negotiations while Indonesia is the first foreign nation to place an order for the grenades. The Government of India has recently given in-principle approval to Economic Explosives Limited to supply the grenades to Indonesia.

 

[randomradio]

Ignore the quad-NODs, reserve them for elite Tier-1 style units under AFSOD or for NSG. Anyway we have indigenous alternatives (much cheaper) in the form of Tonbo BNVD-P:

Already adopted in small quantity (probably for testing) by CRPF QRT in J&K:

View attachment 19921

For the rest of the Paras, MARCOS & Garuds a simple, proven binocular NVG like PVS-15 (or Tonbo BNVD) is what's needed and unfortunately so far, not seen with them.

As of the plate carriers, I've already made it as clear as I can in the post before.

Yes it's true that we've been engaged in a WOT/COIN type fight for a very long time but the lessons are hardly if ever integrated into procurement. Like I said before - the NVGs are a perfect example. Despite knowing for decade-plus that the ecosystem in J&K is exploiting the overnight-cordon SOP and allowing targets to get away, no effort is made to change this and instead go for forcible entry at night itself.

In Iraq/Afg, SOCOM/JSOC units operate almost exclusively at night (unless mission is time-critical or otherwise dictates daylight) - pressing their advantage with night vision and tilting the odds in their favour in any possible firefight. And then there's us - who, for a lack of equipment, are forced to practice a modern-day equivalent of ceasing fighting at night, as was the case in likes of Kurukshetra. This is a laughable situation and with US withdrawal from Afg - one that will bite us in the a$$ very soon.

I agree with the overall theme. Yeah, they failed to make procurements of more advanced NVGs than the PVS-7 since the early 2000s or even 2010s. But it's not due to lack of trying. Frankly, foreign tech was far too expensive at the time.

The night cordon in Kashmir is done by regular infantry, so that's different. We know for a fact that the army has largely failed in equipping the infantry because BEL has been holding the army hostage for years now, which is typical of a DPSU. They themselves have failed at developing anything on their own, and foreign companies have no interest in dealing with a DPSU for infantry gear. So yeah, we are gonna be in a worrisome situation by next year. I hope emergency purchases will have plugged some holes in operational areas at least.

As for the SF, the issue is the one that has the most media access is the paras, and the one with the worst track record in procurement is the army. Otoh, the Garuds, MARCOS and SFF, even AFSOD, are complete information black holes. So the information we actually get is highly filtered.

 

[Akhlys]

"Doggles" for our four-legged soldiers.

 

[Parthu]

I agree with the overall theme. Yeah, they failed to make procurements of more advanced NVGs than the PVS-7 since the early 2000s or even 2010s. But it's not due to lack of trying. Frankly, foreign tech was far too expensive at the time.

I do not view this as a very satisfactory explanation. There's no way a country as big as India could not afford a few thousand sets of binocular NVGs out of its massive defence budget - IF they were deemed a priority acquisition that would make a very real difference on the ground in these operations. They were not (and still aren't, btw). That points at an institutional/decision-making problem on the part of the brass, not a financial one.

The night cordon in Kashmir is done by regular infantry, so that's different.

Cordons are set up by CI/CT units (Rashtriya Rifles) - but any situation where the targets do not come out on their own (whether to fight or surrender) results in a decision to conduct tactical entry. And the entry team is usually Para-SF, especially when & if hostages are involved. If there's enough information to positively determine that there are no hostages/civilians in the building, quite often no entry is conducted at all - the building is brought down with an 84mm RCL shot (Carl Gustaf launcher).

We know for a fact that the army has largely failed in equipping the infantry because BEL has been holding the army hostage for years now, which is typical of a DPSU. They themselves have failed at developing anything on their own, and foreign companies have no interest in dealing with a DPSU for infantry gear. So yeah, we are gonna be in a worrisome situation by next year. I hope emergency purchases will have plugged some holes in operational areas at least.

They have an opportunity now in moving away from BEL electro-optics when it comes to both I2 & TI sights. Thanks to likes of Tonbo Imaging. Hope they won't squander it. Pvt companies can't survive without orders and so many IPs would have to be liquidated.

As for the SF, the issue is the one that has the most media access is the paras, and the one with the worst track record in procurement is the army. Otoh, the Garuds, MARCOS and SFF, even AFSOD, are complete information black holes. So the information we actually get is highly filtered.

To a degree, yes. However we get picture streams of Garuds & MARCOS in J&K as well. Unfortunately in as far as we've seen, they all seem equally underequipped - and all largely in the same areas (night vision, plate carriers, headsets). This seems like a cross-service problem.

 

[randomradio]

"Doggles" for our four-legged soldiers.

View attachment 19926

View attachment 19927

Those K9s must have gone through a lot of frustrating sh!t before getting used to wearing that.

 

[jetray]

"Doggles" for our four-legged soldiers.

View attachment 19926

View attachment 19927

Just curious, what would the k9 do if a grenade is thrown?

 

[randomradio]

I do not view this as a very satisfactory explanation. There's no way a country as big as India could not afford a few thousand sets of binocular NVGs out of its massive defence budget - IF they were deemed a priority acquisition that would make a very real difference on the ground in these operations. They were not (and still aren't, btw). That points at an institutional/decision-making problem on the part of the brass, not a financial one.

NVGs are expensive, really expensive. Especially the 3+ gen kind which is upwards of $10,000. If we were to buy it at the time it showed up for our entire frontline infantry, it would have cost us 30% of our entire defence budget of the time. I mean, the entire lot of 140 Su-30MKI came in at $3.5B back then. There's no way the GoI could have afforded that. Even in 2007, the decision to equip merely one section with an NVD each was a pretty expensive decision.

Even equipping a few thousand Paras at the time would have been prohibitively expensive. So the problem was the size of the country, which implied a larger army, hence the need for a larger budget that didn't exist. At the time, even equipping infantry and SF with basic gear was a challenge.

But that was the case in the past. For today, what you say is logic and common sense, but MoD doesn't work using that.

Cordons are set up by CI/CT units (Rashtriya Rifles) - but any situation where the targets do not come out on their own (whether to fight or surrender) results in a decision to conduct tactical entry. And the entry team is usually Para-SF, especially when & if hostages are involved. If there's enough information to positively determine that there are no hostages/civilians in the building, quite often no entry is conducted at all - the building is brought down with an 84mm RCL shot (Carl Gustaf launcher).

The PVS-7 is more than enough for such operations, where combat takes place within a few meters, and the tangos are primarily unprepared and underequipped to deal with the situation. Higher grade devices are needed for the open field where ranges required are in hundreds of meters.

They have an opportunity now in moving away from BEL electro-optics when it comes to both I2 & TI sights. Thanks to likes of Tonbo Imaging. Hope they won't squander it. Pvt companies can't survive without orders and so many IPs would have to be liquidated.

I hope so too. The good news is we are making that change. But the problem is that change is primarily coming in through emergency purchases rather than tenders. Once tenders begin with private sector involvement, that's when we can say we have arrived. At least we made a breakthrough with hand grenades.

To a degree, yes. However we get picture streams of Garuds & MARCOS in J&K as well. Unfortunately in as far as we've seen, they all seem equally underequipped - and all largely in the same areas (night vision, plate carriers, headsets). This seems like a cross-service problem.

The Garuds and MARCOS, even the Paras, are not fully equipped in those pics though. Hell, they even go around in cargo pants during operations.

Do you have any pics of the same? I've only seen all in basic gear in civilian events like this...

Or what appears to be largely civilian-release images like this:

No comm gear, no EW equipment etc. Basically no electronics.

There's this as well, but no electronics.

In case the guy in front's wearing some sort of earpiece and microphone I have no clue what that is, and the new indigenous SDRs are still WIP. Anyway this is from 2018, whereas the one below is from 2010. Clearly there have been some upgrades. Obviously both are for civilian release.

Too many conclusions are being formed without full information being made available to us, although I don't mind that. Otoh, the SFs do get upgrades without us knowing about it.

As long as the commanders have properly utilised their special financial powers over the last 2-3 years, they should have new gear that we still don't know about. I don't see them not making such a decision when they finally have access to money. At 500Cr per project, one can imagine how much the SF can improve overnight when the commanders themselves get to buy what they need. Anyway, the last I heard, all the SFs are making use of the emergency purchases.

 

[SammyBoi]

US Navy SEALs - Arctic training....
Can our SFs ever get similar gear or atleast something close to it?

 

[Parthu]

NVGs are expensive, really expensive. Especially the 3+ gen kind which is upwards of $10,000. If we were to buy it at the time it showed up for our entire frontline infantry, it would have cost us 30% of our entire defence budget of the time. I mean, the entire lot of 140 Su-30MKI came in at $3.5B back then. There's no way the GoI could have afforded that. Even in 2007, the decision to equip merely one section with an NVD each was a pretty expensive decision.

Even equipping a few thousand Paras at the time would have been prohibitively expensive. So the problem was the size of the country, which implied a larger army, hence the need for a larger budget that didn't exist. At the time, even equipping infantry and SF with basic gear was a challenge.

But that was the case in the past. For today, what you say is logic and common sense, but MoD doesn't work using that.

Who's talking about whole infantry? I'm talking about SFs (i.e. the entry teams that go in after RR has secured a cordon). Even at $10k per piece, for less than $60 million you can roughly cover all battalions of Para-SF. That's less than the price of a single Rafale, and about 1/6th the price of a single C-17. Going forward on that example - we actually made enough room in budget for 3 additional C-17s at the end, but ended up with only 1 because no others were left. That's enough budget to equip entire SF community with Gen-III+ NVGs right there (Paras, MARCOS, Garuds).

Even Bangladesh Navy's SWADS can scrounge that up.

The argument that it was a budget issue (when talking about equipping small numbers of SOF troops) simply does not stand. Compared to jets, ships & missiles this stuff is literally PEANUTS. The problem was, the brass never considered this worthy enough of spending that budget on.

The Garuds and MARCOS, even the Paras, are not fully equipped in those pics though. Hell, they even go around in cargo pants during operations.

Do you have any pics of the same? I've only seen all in basic gear in civilian events like this...

Or what appears to be largely civilian-release images like this:

No comm gear, no EW equipment etc. Basically no electronics.

These are largely photo-ops. But then again, they only show the same kit they'd have in the field.

Some pics of Garuds from the field in J&K:

There's this as well, but no electronics.
View attachment 19928

In case the guy in front's wearing some sort of earpiece and microphone I have no clue what that is, and the new indigenous SDRs are still WIP. Anyway this is from 2018, whereas the one below is from 2010. Clearly there have been some upgrades. Obviously both are for civilian release.

View attachment 19929

Individual comms have been in use since a long time. However its anyone's guess if those are secure radios or not, either way those in-ear headsets don't offer any hearing protection or ability to allow audible communication under gunfire.

MARCOS in particular have recently been seen with Motorola-made Push-to-Talk (PTT) switches - definitely more robust than some Chinese-branded wire of the type you get when you buy a phone.

Some recent pics of MARCOS in the field (also in J&K):

Note the PTT switch in the last image ^^ wired up to a commercial in-ear device.

Too many conclusions are being formed without full information being made available to us, although I don't mind that. Otoh, the SFs do get upgrades without us knowing about it.

Whether its positive or negative we can only comment on what we've seen. And the picture streams from live encounter sites in J&K (like the ones I just posted above) are as authentic as it can get when it comes to finding out what kind of stuff they're currently running.

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 19931
US Navy SEALs - Arctic training....
Can our SFs ever get similar gear or atleast something close to it?

Looks like basic gear.

 

[SammyBoi]

Looks like basic gear.

Well, what about the headgear, comms(Earwear, radio), weapon(accessories)?

 

[randomradio]

Who's talking about whole infantry? I'm talking about SFs (i.e. the entry teams that go in after RR has secured a cordon). Even at $10k per piece, for less than $60 million you can roughly cover all battalions of Para-SF. That's less than the price of a single Rafale, and about 1/6th the price of a single C-17. Going forward on that example - we actually made enough room in budget for 3 additional C-17s at the end, but ended up with only 1 because no others were left. That's enough budget to equip entire SF community with Gen-III+ NVGs right there (Paras, MARCOS, Garuds).

Even Bangladesh Navy's SWADS can scrounge that up.

The argument that it was a budget issue (when talking about equipping small numbers of SOF troops) simply does not stand. Compared to jets, ships & missiles this stuff is literally PEANUTS. The problem was, the brass never considered this worthy enough of spending that budget on.

Interesting, isn't it? It's cheap in comparison to big ticket stuff, but that's not how babus think. This is not a problem with the generals, it's a problem with the civilians, and of course the babu-PSU nexus.

The army did go for NVGs the previous decade and BEL did offer the best they could. But their best wasn't good enough, I believe it was 2nd gen. So it's not a procurement issue as well, it's a supply issue. It's also a demonstration of a complete lack of scientific capability when it comes to this technology for both BEL and DRDO. Plus the fact that they couldn't buy the technology from outside either. Not even from Russia.

Now, if DRDO or BEL failed to develop the tech, they can always buy it from outside. There should be plenty of companies around with the tech but lack a market to sell. But again, the problem isn't the buying part, the problem is the authorisation part, which lies in the hands of civilians. Even DPSUs have limits to what they can or can't do.

Whether its positive or negative we can only comment on what we've seen. And the picture streams from live encounter sites in J&K (like the ones I just posted above) are as authentic as it can get when it comes to finding out what kind of stuff they're currently running.

Just saying I wouldn't count on that. Especially when it comes to electronics. Now, NVGs, yeah, they train with it and get used to it, but comm systems, it's best left alone. It's not necessary that they carry what they actually use for SF ops outside, either in operational areas for CI ops where it's not needed or international exercises or exhibitions. The secrecy surrounding anything to do with the electromagnetic spectrum within the SH is ridiculous. But I'd definitely keep my eyes out for any images that show them operating alongside the LoC in the open, that's when they are likely to carry the real deal, if any. I doubt such images are available though.

 

[randomradio]

Well, what about the headgear, comms(Earwear, radio), weapon(accessories)?

The only thing I see our SFs missing is the comm gear, ours is WIP, or some SDRs being purchased as part of emergency procurement. Or old tech right now.

The Para's upcoming, or already arrived, SCAR-L and H come with the same options as whatever the SEALs get in terms of accessories.

SFs use various types of headgear depending on the mission. The same with the vest. There is not one standard kit for all missions. And it's obvious both the headgear and vest will have all the bells and whistles needed to carry whatever you want to.

The Paras are getting the latest NVGs as well, an upgrade from their current 3rd gen sights.

 

[Akhlys]

Just curious, what would the k9 do if a grenade is thrown?

Military K9s are trained to respond pretty quickly, first time, every time to their handlers commands. If he/she yells "Down" or "Grenade" the dog will lay down to minimize exposure to grenade fragments. If they aren't in a position to respond a soldier may tackle them.

Generally military K9s also wear some sort of protective vest, in addition to eye and paw protection, but it depends on the mission profile. This dog belongs to the same unit as the one I posted above.

This one to Brigade North of the Norwegian Army.

Both vests are Kevlar or similar materials.

 

[Milspec]

In an AK, the piston and the BCG hit the trunnion hard, causing a lot of recoil. In the Sig, it is only the BCG and most of the shock is absorbed by the buffer spring. So, the recoil impulse is kind of the same for the two guns...

ha ha, trust me that's not true.

 

[Killbot]

ha ha, trust me that's not true.

I wouldn't know how it really feels, only the theory. I'll take you on your word here.

 

[Milspec]

I wouldn't know how it really feels, only the theory. I'll take you on your word here.

Line of reasoning is correct, but buffer tube and recoil spring can just do a little, it's there mostly to cycle the action, just like the recoil spring in AKM's.
AKM are actually quite pleasant to shoot, the recoil impulse is nice. AR10's, Fal's G3's on the other hand have a solid punch slightly lesser than a 308 Bolt gun. When you shoot a tub of 7.62x51N on the range, you can feel it on your shoulder the next day.

The worst ones of the common caliber for me is shooting 12g slugs. That's my least fav thing on the range.

 

[Milspec]

Who's talking about whole infantry? I'm talking about SFs (i.e. the entry teams that go in after RR has secured a cordon). Even at $10k per piece, for less than $60 million you can roughly cover all battalions of Para-SF. That's less than the price of a single Rafale, and about 1/6th the price of a single C-17. Going forward on that example - we actually made enough room in budget for 3 additional C-17s at the end, but ended up with only 1 because no others were left. That's enough budget to equip entire SF community with Gen-III+ NVGs right there (Paras, MARCOS, Garuds).

Even Bangladesh Navy's SWADS can scrounge that up.

The argument that it was a budget issue (when talking about equipping small numbers of SOF troops) simply does not stand. Compared to jets, ships & missiles this stuff is literally PEANUTS. The problem was, the brass never considered this worthy enough of spending that budget on.



These are largely photo-ops. But then again, they only show the same kit they'd have in the field.

Some pics of Garuds from the field in J&K:

View attachment 19932
View attachment 19933
View attachment 19934
View attachment 19935
View attachment 19936
View attachment 19937



Individual comms have been in use since a long time. However its anyone's guess if those are secure radios or not, either way those in-ear headsets don't offer any hearing protection or ability to allow audible communication under gunfire.

MARCOS in particular have recently been seen with Motorola-made Push-to-Talk (PTT) switches - definitely more robust than some Chinese-branded wire of the type you get when you buy a phone.

Some recent pics of MARCOS in the field (also in J&K):

View attachment 19938
View attachment 19940
View attachment 19939
View attachment 19941

Note the PTT switch in the last image ^^ wired up to a commercial in-ear device.



Whether its positive or negative we can only comment on what we've seen. And the picture streams from live encounter sites in J&K (like the ones I just posted above) are as authentic as it can get when it comes to finding out what kind of stuff they're currently running.

Damn, you guys expect quite a bit,
Even if the MoD can create a situation where IA doesn't run out of ammo everytime there is a flareup in the border, that would be a satisfactory starting point for me.

 

[gumnaam]

Hello everyone, i am new on this forum, can someone please tell me about what kind of plate carriers regulars on IA are using and what is the future of the plate carriers used by them. Also, is the army upgrading their backpacks, or the same kind of mismatch of backpacks seen in Kashmir is expected to continue?

 

[SammyBoi]

Saber Sniper Rifle by SSS Defence

Viper Sniper Rifle by SSS Defence

Do you guys think these two could become the standard issue Sniper Rifles of at least Indian SFs? (and maybe small numbers with specialized infantry - Ghataks, RR, etc...)