Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Yeah, looks like media is getting confused over the nomenclature. Alpha Defense' explanation looks plausible.
As per recent reports, Russia has relented to HAL's demand of indigenously upgrading MKI. Only thing where HAL would need Russian help is FBW. If @_Anonymous_ is still following this forum, you would remember I told you last time around that MKI upgrade would need new FBW because of weight/balance change. Looks like my prediction was correct.
I just need confirmation of MKI's mettalic skins and spars to be replaced by CNT fibre mat and I think the upgrade could be just perfect and kickass. Fingers crossed. @marich01 what's your take on composites on MKI UPG.?
I just need confirmation of MKI's mettalic skins and spars to be replaced by CNT fibre mat and I think the upgrade could be just perfect and kickass. Fingers crossed. @marich01 what's your take on composites on MKI UPG.?
Don't know much tbh, ie for starters the heavy fighter category 4th gen jets are mostly non-composite made. It would need extensive work perhaps and occasional problems like the ALH rod thing, but after so much indigenous wok on su30 already, should we proceed it would be within very much our capability.
The biggest roadblock to the MKI's modernization is the IAF itself. They don't want major changes done to the airframe. They are in two minds about the engine upgrade as well, in case the Russians withdraw certification.
In this regard I do not blame the user. Handling the equipment, keeping in service is as important as using it during war/needful situation. They obviously have their reason. Government can change every 5 years but the user & its SOP remains largely on similar level, so in a way the user has its hands tied on adequate funding by any govt that prefers the L1 route. If the geopolitics & events of last 7-8 years alone do not make them serious, I doubt the sitting Govt have any intention to be serious on military matter unless absolutely hard pressed last resort.
It has a lot to do with OEM constraints, what people talk about when the time comes to modernize, hence the importance of self-reliance.
But the forces prefer capability over self-reliance, although they'd prefer both work out. It's like the ATAGS/ATHOS debate. One provides self-reliance, the other provides capability. Sometimes the former is almost useless. The same thing happened with Arjun, better capability, but absolutely useless in some geographies (the primary ones) and comes with a 2.5x sticker price and significantly lower indigenization 'cause the propulsion is imported.
MKI, in the name of indigenization, can be thrown into the useless category too, hence the IAF's reluctance to modify the airframe. That's the same reason why it doesn't have internal MAWS, the IAF did not want new massive holes in the airframe.
Better option is retire the old airframe and go for new F15EX.
Even a plane that is designed for thermal stealth aka F-22 lights up on IRST in close quarters:
Full link:
However, with our desi engine upgrade and use of composites(if) in MKI's skin, may reduce its thermal signature slightly.
Rafale has very less thermal signature and doesn't light up on IRST as much as big fighters like MKI and F-22.
That's not a lot, look at the engine side on the Flanker. That thing will be visible from very great distances.
In a head on BVR fight, modern QWIP IRST shall detect all of them at similar distance as it can even detect 1°C variation between atmosphere and skin temperature. Modern ones can even detect the hot air around a jet that is cruising at 900kmph. Side and rear thermal signature is more important in penetrating missions. We've Rafale for that.
Anyways, let's hope, AL-31FP's indigenous upgrade may bring some improvement on this front too
In a head on BVR fight, modern QWIP IRST shall detect all of them at similar distance as it can even detect 1°C variation between atmosphere and skin temperature. Modern ones can even detect the hot air around a jet that is cruising at 900kmph. Side and rear thermal signature is more important in penetrating missions. We've Rafale for that.
Anyways, let's hope, AL-31FP's indigenous upgrade may bring some improvement on this front too
The issue with IRST is its FoV is only from the front. Stealth attacks come from the side and rear. But yeah, hopefully they reduce the MKI's IR RCS with the new engine.
That's why I find EODAS and DDM-NG as so impressive. Even side and rear stealthy attacks could be detected by them(and even counter attacked).
One area where every one is silent about MKI MLU is DC-MAWS. With proper software tuning we may provide the same tracking and rear attack abilities of the former two. LCA-MK2 will surely have Rafale like and AMCA will have F-35 like MAWS/DAS.
I doubt they have that much range, enough to counter stealth. The sensors are very small.
MKI's MAWS will be pod based, it won't have 360deg capability, 'cause the IAF doesn't want extra holes.
LCA Mk2 will have F-35 style 360 deg DCMAWS with 5 sensors. It will naturally be more advanced than the vanilla version on the F-35.
Every aircraft will look like a spotlight on IRST unless it is in a hangar.
That is just basic physics.
Same is true for radar. By that logic, radar stealth is useless unless you are dealing with IADS.
Not for aircraft that hide their engine nacelles. Some of the more recent aircraft have low IR signatures due to the design of the nacelle and the engine itself, like the M88-4E has a second layer of air that cols the exhaust. Some block the view of the exhaust from the sides.
If you stop at 27 seconds, you will notice how hot the engine burns. That's the spotlight, the rest of the airframe is cool.
For radar, no. Both Flankers and Eagles are called barn doors when referring to RCS. The same does not apply to stealth designs, both radar and IR. Even visual stealth is somewhat taken care of via paints. In the future, we will see the use of metamaterials in the airframe, where light will simply pass through such bodies. It should be coming in new designs. The Koreans have announced the development of metamaterials for their new K3 tank, it's supposed to make the tank invisible, or at least make it look different than what it is.
Cool is a relative term. Yes, engine is far more noticeable than the rest of the aircraft, and infrared signature reduction measures matter. But unless you are down in the weeds, it is impossible for aircraft to be anywhere near the ambient temperature.
Ambient temperature is -44,4 *C at 30.000 ft, -54,2 *C at 35.000 ft, -56,5 *C at 40.000 ft to 60.000 ft, and -55,2 *C at 70.000 ft. At such temperatures, airframe already becomes a major source of heat signature - you simply cannot cool it down to such temperatures. And modern IRST systems can detect temperature gradients of 1 to 2 degrees celsius. Unless you have a Klingon cloaking device, there is no way around that.
And even when it comes to engine itself, you simply cannot achieve significant heat signature reduction. Some reduction, yes. But plume will be too long to completely hide, engine itself heats up and heats the airframe... even if you hide the engine nozzle, you cannot hide the hot air engine produces.
You said this:
Radar FoV is also only from the front. If aircraft comes from the side or the rear, radar won't matter. Unless you have AWACS local, even a B-52 coming from the side will not be noticed on radar.
That only applies if you are close enough. IRST is restricted by the distance it can detect heat because the cold environment acts as a heat sink.
Stealth jets have the habit of cooling their exhausts with ambient air that dissipates heat, and the airframe also dumps heat into fuel tanks, so that acts as a second heat sink. So it becomes very difficult to detect residual heat. And due to wind and air pressure IRST have to deal with many false positives. So unless you are close enough, an IRST cannot tell if a heat signature is an aircraft or an environmental artifact. So, while an IRST does detect a jet from a long distance, it will look like a twinkling star at such distances. And it could very well be a star, or a planet or satellites, not a jet. At shorter altitudes, you will even detect birds.
So if you need actionable intelligence, you either need a massive heat source that is without a doubt man-made, like a ballistic missile in boost phase, or a very large aircraft that has pretty much zero ways to reduce its heat signature, like the Flanker or Eagle. Or of course, get close enough to get a decent enough resolution.
An aircraft is supported by multiple types of radars with 360 deg capability, including future fighters. It's not that realistic for IRST.
The idea is to detect with a radar first and then point your IRST towards actionable intelligence collected by the radar.