Sukhoi Su-30MKI

The present size of Su-30 intakes is fit for this engine. Al-41F1 will need bigger intakes.

117 will present us with the same amount of difficulties AL-31FP gave us. It's a brand new engine and yet to enter operational service. Otoh, 117S has been in operation for a decade, and by the time MKI MLU becomes operational, the oldest engine would have already undergone its full lifecycle. So it's a way better bet.
 
Doesn't matter if the source are in Russian! It would be good for me.

No, I mean it's a problem for me. I can't find it. When it comes to Russian sources, if I haven't already stored it or I can't find it with a simple google search, then it's impossible for me. Same with French or Chinese or anything else as a matter of fact.
 
Reading the above Infos..

Seems changing gear box at the time of overhaul is the cheapest way to improve power demands of Aesa radar.


I guess same time will be ideal for upgrade.

So Hal nasik division will overhaul and MLU at the same time. ?
 
Reading the above Infos..

Seems changing gear box at the time of overhaul is the cheapest way to improve power demands of Aesa radar.


I guess same time will be ideal for upgrade.

So Hal nasik division will overhaul and MLU at the same time. ?
Question is where is this magical aesa coming from. Russians don't have any aesa for the flanker. The irbis is the only top of the line radar on offer. Apart from that the phazotron fga 50 does not offer any great performance but is the only realistic aesa choice. It's performance on paper doesn't seem to be that good. Getting the su 57 radar seems impossible. If we don't have an engine upgrade and still want an aesa fga 50 is the only real option. The fga 29 was used for mig 35 considering the powe difference it's the only candidate that fits the aesa requirements. The problem is uttam has similar level of performance so why even consult the Russians when you can do everything yourself and you don't want to upgrade the engine.

Russia Unveils FGA 50 AESA Radar For MiG, Sukhoi Jets At Chinese Air show
 
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You can't really compare the equipment carried on one aircraft with another, especially when the classes themselves are different. Nor can you compare engines of different generations. For example, the RD-33 and F404 can most definitely not power the Irbis-E even with two engines, alongside all the other electronics, but the F-135 can most definitely do it easily with just 1 engine.

Take the difference between GaAs and GaN for example. GaAs peaks at 12-15W, but GaN can climb to hundreds of watts. Now, imagine a 12W GaAs radar with 1800T/R modules, your peak output is going to be 21.6KW, a little more than the Irbis-E. Add 50% power for power consumption, since AESAs are power efficient, and you need as much as 32.4KW. Now replace that with a GaN radar that emits 30W, now it emits 54KW and your power consumption is 81KW. What if 50W modules are used? After all HPM is going to be the next new fad. The idea behind using heavy aircraft is to use such radars that can spit out a lot of power and give you more detection range.

The problem is they are going to keep this data secret for a long time. If not today, maybe tomorrow, the MKI can come in with 50-100W GaN modules. But the LCA may come in with GaN modules with a power rating of just 10W. These things are not comparable.

Anyway, modifying the AL-31FP requires a whole new contract, which is easily traceable, and this will be a time consuming process, when instead the 117S is already available, and already reengined. And now I really wanna see what decision the IAF makes.


We won't keep the Bars for MLU. The Russians are proposing Irbis-E for the sake of time (and profits), while IAF is keener on waiting for AESA.

Our older aircraft will continue flying with Bars for a long time, especially those that were inducted in the last 5+ years.
An f16's Constant Speed Drive (CSD) & Generator produces 60KVA apparent power, it won't be difficult to update it 140 or even 200KVA. MKI has almost twice the shaft power on an F16.
 
Reading the above Infos..

Seems changing gear box at the time of overhaul is the cheapest way to improve power demands of Aesa radar.


I guess same time will be ideal for upgrade.

So Hal nasik division will overhaul and MLU at the same time. ?
Not that simple,
it would require, New Harness to the radar, harness from the drive, gearbox and generators to the mission comp, multiple relay sections need to be replaced, Gearbox needs to changed, new generator and 12pulse drives, new uprated chokes. and will have to go through a series of tests.
 
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Everybody here claiming we will go for a aesa radar. It's BS the uttam is not capable enough to be used on the su 30. The Russians won't make a derivative aesa from their su 57 and we won't pay for developing an aesa with the Russians (could be a possibility). The most logical choice is irbis-e upgrade. And if we go for irbis then the al 41 comes. Their is no aesa offering on the flanker. The fga 50 could be a possibility but from what I've seen our uttam could do the same job as the fga 50 but we lose out on the monstrous range of the irbis or bars. All these twitter guys are claiming one thing or the other and we get a similar shock in procurement the way we got for the ak203 and sig 716 deal.
I think UTTAM AESA is developing putting 2052 AESA as a bench mark. So, at least it will be as capable as 2052. Further UTTAM may have GaN module. Final thing is UTTAM is scalable. So, considering all these points I have no doubt that UTTAM have a solid contender to go into MKI Upgrade.
 
An f16's Constant Speed Drive (CSD) & Generator produces 60KVA apparent power, it won't be difficult to update it 140 or even 200KVA. MKI has almost twice the shaft power on an F16.

AL-31F also manages 60kVA. So twice that for two engines.

But any such modification with respect to the CSD and generator requires a contract.

Also, such modifications have a lot of constraints, especially dealing with heat. And even if the apparent power is whatever number, the actual power that is usable continuously is generally no more than 50 or 60% than installed capacity. There are also size constraints. So what seems simple in theory doesn't always work out practically.

There are also economic motivations, from both sides. The Russians will want to push their new engine on to us, which they have already started since 2017. The IAF has a record of attempting to replace or replacing the engine during MLUs. Case in point, the attempt to install the AL-31 onto the Mig-27 and the Jaguar reengine program. The IAF also may not necessarily be willing to introduce modifications on an engine that has a short service life, or even bother with a whole new contract for the same engine.

The 117S also brings other benefits, which are more important, considering it uses more advanced technology. More power, better TVC, greater life, superior SFC, lower maintenance and so on. We also have to check if there is any benefit in terms of cost by modifying an old engine rather than replace it. I suspect installing the 117S is going to be a faster and cheaper option.
 
AL-31F also manages 60kVA. So twice that for two engines.

120KVA with even an 80% power factor yields 96KW, so thats the spectrum within which it can power any radar.

But any such modification with respect to the CSD and generator requires a contract.
Most likely Pakfa already has the step up gearbox, drive and generator.

Also, such modifications have a lot of constraints, especially dealing with heat. And even if the apparent power is whatever number, the actual power that is usable continuously is generally no more than 50 or 60% than installed capacity. There are also size constraints. So what seems simple in theory doesn't always work out practically.
what system has 50% power factor? who on gods green earth would approve such a poor design?

There are also economic motivations, from both sides. The Russians will want to push their new engine on to us, which they have already started since 2017. The IAF has a record of attempting to replace or replacing the engine during MLUs. Case in point, the attempt to install the AL-31 onto the Mig-27 and the Jaguar reengine program. The IAF also may not necessarily be willing to introduce modifications on an engine that has a short service life, or even bother with a whole new contract for the same engine.
the gearbox is not going to deplete engine life. basic design/common sense.
Both AL31F and Honeywell F125N scuttled by MoD.

The 117S also brings other benefits, which are more important, considering it uses more advanced technology. More power, better TVC, greater life, superior SFC, lower maintenance and so on. We also have to check if there is any benefit in terms of cost by modifying an old engine rather than replace it. I suspect installing the 117S is going to be a faster and cheaper option.

No. That's just your speculation. A government that negotiates AK's at $1000 a pop, is most likely to bungle these things up for a long time to come.
 
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120KVA with even an 80% power factor yields 100KW, so thats the spectrum within which it can power any radar.

That's most definitely not enough power for a heavy class aircraft.

The F-35 has 2 75kVA generators. Weirdly the F-22 also has the same amount. But the PAK FA is expected to have nearly twice that amount on the AL-51. However the 117S may be closer or equal to the ones on the F-22/F-35.

what system has 50% power factor? who on gods green earth would approve such a poor design?

100KW is only the peak power, and a generator will generate that much power only for a few seconds. If you want more power for a few minutes, you may be able to get 80% of that. And if you want a continuous supply of power, then you will be able to use only 60% of the actual capacity. So we are talking about 60KW being usable. This has nothing to do with power factor. For example, the Airbus A380 has 150kVA generators, but its continuous power generation capacity is 90kVA. Peak power lasts only 5 seconds.

If you consider Irbis-E, then we are likely talking about a peak power consumption of 35-40KW. So the remaining power is most definitely not enough to handle all the other electronics and also the FBW. And this is only considering general electronics, we don't know what sort of exotic technologies the MKI may carry.

As for the power generators that are actually used, designers have already almost peaked. Or else they wouldn't just put 60kVA or 75kVA generators when it's obvious it's preferable to have as much power as possible. There is a pretty good risk you will blow the engine or set it on fire if too much heat gets trapped, so the quality of your heat sink is also a major limitation.

Another problem is these are not plug and play systems. Once you make changes to the generator and gearbox, you will have to put the engine and aircraft through a full length flight testing and certification process.

the gearbox is not going to deplete engine life. basic design/common sense.

Nothing to do with the gearbox. AL-31FP's engine life itself is just 2000 hours, and doesn't even meet that much. It was merely improved from the AL-31F after all, which has a service life of a little less than 1500 hours. 117's is 4000 hours.

Most likely Pakfa already has the step up gearbox, drive and generator.

You mean the AL-51? It's likely that nothing on this engine is of use on a 4th gen engine. We may be talking about an embedded generator here, where the generator is inside the core of the engine itself. One of the rumoured goals is to use the entire engine shaft power to generate electricity, so one of the engines simply stops developing thrust and switches to an electric powerplant instead. Even if that's not the case, I don't think there's anything usable on the AL-51.

No. That's just your speculation. A government that negotiates AK's at $1000 a pop, is most likely to bungle these things up for a long time to come.

It's modification that they can easily bungle up, like your idea of enhancing the AL-31FP's power generation, which the Russians have not done, and is a proper R&D program where costs have to be based on estimates, and also comes with significant risk. But simply buying the 117S and sticking it on the MKI is easy-peasy, the Russians have already done it, all we need is a contract.

Rather Jaguar and Mig-27's reengine programs were actually R&D programs, came with tremendous amounts of risks and ultimately failed. The AL-31FP modification could also go the same way. What's more, if the IAF was actually willing to engage in such risky business, then simply buying the 117S with zero risk is an obvious choice. It's a proven engine and has even seen some combat.

As for the AK, I wouldn't speculate on costs of anything until a contract is signed.
 
42 now in my opinion is a really very old figure based on old situation and assessments. We need a new white paper on possible external/internal/digital threats and possible attainable force levels to defeat them.

Coming back to numbers, the priority for short term is to arrest the further drop in numbers. 4 Mig21 squadrons and 1 Jaguar squadron will go out within next 5 years. Add to it, 2 Mig21 and 3 Mig27 squadrons lost in last 2 years.

That's according to our finances , with 4 squadrons of MK1A , 36 + 36 Rafales should cover up by 2028. Meanwhile rest goes on to upgrade the Su30MKI, procurement of tankers and AWACS.

Post 2028, we will have 170-180 fighters going out, Mig29 , Mirage 2000 and Jaguar DARIN3, that's where additional Rafales (if MMRCA 2 is cancelled) , possible off the self Su57 batches and MWF comes into figure.

Only after 2035 we can think of increasing the numbers anywhere near 40.

But 280 Su30MKI, 120 Tejas, 72 Rafales , supported by 180 Jaguar/Mig29/Mirage2000s is a fair enough mix of force by 2028.

That's 650+ fighter jets we are talking about.

Pakistan now has around 350 fighters and China has nearly 400 around tibet or slightly further away.

We can match up with them imo.
 

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42 now in my opinion is a really very old figure based on old situation and assessments. We need a new white paper on possible external/internal/digital threats and possible attainable force levels to defeat them.

Coming back to numbers, the priority for short term is to arrest the further drop in numbers. 4 Mig21 squadrons and 1 Jaguar squadron will go out within next 5 years. Add to it, 2 Mig21 and 3 Mig27 squadrons lost in last 2 years.

That's according to our finances , with 4 squadrons of MK1A , 36 + 36 Rafales should cover up by 2028. Meanwhile rest goes on to upgrade the Su30MKI, procurement of tankers and AWACS.

Post 2028, we will have 170-180 fighters going out, Mig29 , Mirage 2000 and Jaguar DARIN3, that's where additional Rafales (if MMRCA 2 is cancelled) , possible off the self Su57 batches and MWF comes into figure.

Only after 2035 we can think of increasing the numbers anywhere near 40.

But 280 Su30MKI, 120 Tejas, 72 Rafales , supported by 180 Jaguar/Mig29/Mirage2000s is a fair enough mix of force by 2028.

That's 650+ fighter jets we are talking about.

Pakistan now has around 350 fighters and China has nearly 400 around tibet or slightly further away.

We can match up with them imo.
Indian arsenal of planes can be called "Khichadi" at best. The image which I have shared is having the numbers and name of jets either in service or already on order and awaiting delivery. Many of the older jets will be decommissioned in near future, but many will be still retained for foreseeable future. I hate to say this but our very approach at dealing with the numbers is very much depressing as is the path to economic progress and prosperity. It must be nightmare for air force's SCM team to arrange the spares and keep the jets in air, even at reduced numbers.

My personal take is,
1. IAF should limit the number of fighter jets to only three types at maximum(Su30MKI, Rafale & TEJAS),
2. one type of dedicated bomber, low RCS if possible,
3. 1 type of AWACS, tanker & Reconnaissance, based on same platform if possible be it 707, 737, C-295, C130J SH,
4. 1 type of Electronic warfare,
5. for transport & cargo including multi mission operations, one strategic long leg C-17, C130J SH/C-295 for medium leg & commonality in platform and DO 228 for short leg,
6. Trainers seems to be okay but numbers needs to be increased.
7. In utility helicopter segment, Mi-26, Chetak, Cheetah need to be phased out immediately & MI-17 gradually. We should have only two platforms Chinhook and Dhurv in service.
8. For ground attack Mi-24 need to go and Rudra/LCH(preferable only LCH) along with AH-64 to serve ground support Heli role.
9. In drone roles, we should have patrol and weaponized ones each type in service.

In fighter jets, 2 types of stealth jets(preferably F35A & AMCA) should be inducted, as and when available and high RCS jets should be reduced gradually.
 
That's most definitely not enough power for a heavy class aircraft.

The F-35 has 2 75kVA generators. Weirdly the F-22 also has the same amount. But the PAK FA is expected to have nearly twice that amount on the AL-51. However the 117S may be closer or equal to the ones on the F-22/F-35.
Well, then every SU30 operators out there might be morons then?

100KW is only the peak power, and a generator will generate that much power only for a few seconds. If you want more power for a few minutes, you may be able to get 80% of that. And if you want a continuous supply of power, then you will be able to use only 60% of the actual capacity. So we are talking about 60KW being usable. This has nothing to do with power factor. For example, the Airbus A380 has 150kVA generators, but its continuous power generation capacity is 90kVA. Peak power lasts only 5 seconds.

You are absolutely incorrect. I have 5 generators for my Lab which are rated at 225KVA prime, i.e 250KVA standby. i.e it can accommodate most Wye-Delta starts that can spike to rate amperage as well as apparent power of 250KVA and will continuously sustain power at 225 till it runs out of fuel.
You can come back to this one, but I would highly advice brushing up on basic electricals from highschool
There is no such thing as a continuous supply of power or intermittent supply of power. There are Prime and standby though but has nothing to do with continuous or intermittent.
next before making a comment on the power factor, look it up.




If you consider Irbis-E, then we are likely talking about a peak power consumption of 35-40KW. So the remaining power is most definitely not enough to handle all the other electronics and also the FBW. And this is only considering general electronics, we don't know what sort of exotic technologies the MKI may carry.
Really? Your statement is similar those kids protesting without knowing what they are protesting. Without a clue of what the power requirements are, you are absolutely sure its not. Do you know how much 40-50KW is in terms of low-level intelligent devices? We have 40-80 device bench testers which barely consume 5KW. I don't know what type of washing machines you think MKI is carrying in it's belly.

As for the power generators that are actually used, designers have already almost peaked. Or else they wouldn't just put 60kVA or 75kVA generators when it's obvious it's preferable to have as much power as possible. There is a pretty good risk you will blow the engine or set it on fire if too much heat gets trapped, so the quality of your heat sink is also a major limitation.
Multiple issues here too.
If my f16 A/B power system is rated for 40KVA and C/D for 60KVA, it is so for a reason. it's not that the designers maxed out. The idea is to keep Power System as small as possible to it's weight lower.
How do you blow up your engine through a Gearbox? I would love to know more.
Which heat sink are you referring to? The one for the radar?





Another problem is these are not plug and play systems. Once you make changes to the generator and gearbox, you will have to put the engine and aircraft through a full length flight testing and certification process.
Yes, and what is so wrong with putting in some elbow grease?


Nothing to do with the gearbox. AL-31FP's engine life itself is just 2000 hours, and doesn't even meet that much. It was merely improved from the AL-31F after all, which has a service life of a little less than 1500 hours. 117's is 4000 hours.

Point being, Al31FP with minimal "engineering" can satisfy pretty much any reasonable radar, this npower bogey raised on multiple platforms emanates from misinformed views.



You mean the AL-51? It's likely that nothing on this engine is of use on a 4th gen engine. We may be talking about an embedded generator here, where the generator is inside the core of the engine itself. One of the rumoured goals is to use the entire engine shaft power to generate electricity, so one of the engines simply stops developing thrust and switches to an electric powerplant instead. Even if that's not the case, I don't think there's anything usable on the AL-51.



It's modification that they can easily bungle up, like your idea of enhancing the AL-31FP's power generation, which the Russians have not done, and is a proper R&D program where costs have to be based on estimates, and also comes with significant risk. But simply buying the 117S and sticking it on the MKI is easy-peasy, the Russians have already done it, all we need is a contract.

Don't get me wrong, my contention is not to preach this is right or the wrong way; All I am saying is the idea that AL31FP is underpowered for a measly 100KW power output is absolutely ridiculous. Any design engineer worth his salt can design a gearbox (Which offcourse will not blow up the engine - thats not how gearboxes work)

Rather Jaguar and Mig-27's reengine programs were actually R&D programs, came with tremendous amounts of risks and ultimately failed. The AL-31FP modification could also go the same way.

Neither of them were..., both were Cots solutions, literally off the shelf. And both were actually very different cases.

What's more, if the IAF was actually willing to engage in such risky business, then simply buying the 117S with zero risk is an obvious choice. It's a proven engine and has even seen some combat.
An Air Force averse of risk, Sounds a bit antithetical. And also quite rich when the same airforce is quite content operating Cheetaks and Mig21 way past their best before date.

As for the AK, I wouldn't speculate on costs of anything until a contract is signed.

I would just like HAL to be proactive and work with Irkut to become an end-to-end solutions for Legacy Flanker and maybe even Fulcrum platforms. It's high time HAL needs to become an active player in the flanker market and start showing complete ownership of the IA MKI's service/overhaul/upgrade even if it has to put it's own crews in every MKI base.
 
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You mean the AL-51? It's likely that nothing on this engine is of use on a 4th gen engine. We may be talking about an embedded generator here, where the generator is inside the core of the engine itself. One of the rumoured goals is to use the entire engine shaft power to generate electricity, so one of the engines simply stops developing thrust and switches to an electric powerplant instead. Even if that's not the case, I don't think there's anything usable on the AL-51.
.

Thats interesting, the core will spool based on throtle and discharge superheat response, how would a shaft at variable speed deliver constant power to a generator? I would love to read more, post a link if you can.
 
Thats interesting, the core will spool based on throtle and discharge superheat response, how would a shaft at variable speed deliver constant power to a generator? I would love to read more, post a link if you can.
Its possible and very old tech. B737s and A320s had it since donkey's years.
 
Its possible and very old tech. B737s and A320s had it since donkey's years.
umm,
Both 737's and entire A320 family uses CSD. I have never heard of a generator without a transmission. You cannot get constant power to a generator if your main shaft has variable speed without an interim transmission gear box.
 
umm,
Both 737's and entire A320 family uses CSD. I have never heard of a generator without a transmission. You cannot get constant power to a generator if your main shaft has variable speed without an interim transmission gear box.
Please read about them and know how the power is transmitted. There is no direct coupling between the gearbox and the Gen.
 
umm,
Both 737's and entire A320 family uses CSD. I have never heard of a generator without a transmission. You cannot get constant power to a generator if your main shaft has variable speed without an interim transmission gear box.

You can get it.
Variable speed generator can be attached to an inverter and then to an xtender. And a program which detects drip in voltage or step up voltage from the variable generator. Setting the max volt/power limit and min power limit through the program does the job.
 
You can get it.
Variable speed generator can be attached to an inverter and then to an xtender. And a program which detects drip in voltage or step up voltage from the variable generator. Setting the max volt/power limit and min power limit through the program does the job.
The drive for generators in A320 is thru hydro-mechanical drive thru what is called IDG. So there is no direct mechanical link between the gearbox and Gen. The IDG contains CSD.
 
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