Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Milspec]

The drive for generators in A320 is thru hydro-mechanical drive thru what is called IDG. So there is no direct mechanical link between the gearbox and Gen. The IDG contains CSD.

The contention made here was "the generator is inside the core of the engine itself."; Which you seemed to suggest was already in use 737.
I have been stating from the start that you will need a CSD to do so. Hope that clarifies.

IDG's are modern Combined CSD and Generator in one unit, but still are in no way built directly into the core.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The contention made here was "the generator is inside the core of the engine itself."; Which you seemed to suggest was already in use 737.
I have been stating from the start that you will need a CSD to do so. Hope that clarifies.

View attachment 15188

IDG's are modern Combined CSD and Generator in one unit, but still are in no way built directly into the core.

View attachment 15189

I never stated that IDG is installed in the core of the engine. Even IDG is driven by engine gearbox. GE has done some tests in which they took drive from the HP & LP turbine of a F414-400 engine to generate a total of I MW of electricity. It was thru gearbox+Turbines.

 

[Milspec]

I never stated that IDG is installed in the core of the engine. Even IDG is driven by engine gearbox. GE has done some tests in which they took drive from the HP & LP turbine of a F414-400 engine to generate a total of I MW of electricity. It was thru gearbox+Turbines.

Then we are on the same page, The Last two pages have been if MKI's have adequate power for a new AESA radar.
My contention has been the CSD is designed to power an adequate sized generator, during the upgrades if more power is needed, you can always upsize the generator to meet the requirement to a reasonable limit while RR has been coming back with gearboxes blowing up engines to core mounted generators etc.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Then we are on the same page, The Last two pages have been if MKI's have adequate power for a new AESA radar.
My contention has been the CSD is designed to power an adequate sized generator, during the upgrades if more power is needed, you can always upsize the generator to meet the requirement to a reasonable limit while RR has been coming back with gearboxes blowing up engines to core mounted generators etc.

IHI XF9-1 generates 180KW power.

 

[screambowl]

The drive for generators in A320 is thru hydro-mechanical drive thru what is called IDG. So there is no direct mechanical link between the gearbox and Gen. The IDG contains CSD.

Yes that reduces space, but the machine is complex, using torque splitter planetaries.

 

[randomradio]

Thats interesting, the core will spool based on throtle and discharge superheat response, how would a shaft at variable speed deliver constant power to a generator? I would love to read more, post a link if you can.

Rolls-Royce develops world-first electrical technology for next-generation Tempest programme

 

[randomradio]

Well, then every SU30 operators out there might be morons then?



You are absolutely incorrect. I have 5 generators for my Lab which are rated at 225KVA prime, i.e 250KVA standby. i.e it can accommodate most Wye-Delta starts that can spike to rate amperage as well as apparent power of 250KVA and will continuously sustain power at 225 till it runs out of fuel.
You can come back to this one, but I would highly advice brushing up on basic electricals from highschool
There is no such thing as a continuous supply of power or intermittent supply of power. There are Prime and standby though but has nothing to do with continuous or intermittent.
next before making a comment on the power factor, look it up.





Really? Your statement is similar those kids protesting without knowing what they are protesting. Without a clue of what the power requirements are, you are absolutely sure its not. Do you know how much 40-50KW is in terms of low-level intelligent devices? We have 40-80 device bench testers which barely consume 5KW. I don't know what type of washing machines you think MKI is carrying in it's belly.


Multiple issues here too.
If my f16 A/B power system is rated for 40KVA and C/D for 60KVA, it is so for a reason. it's not that the designers maxed out. The idea is to keep Power System as small as possible to it's weight lower.
How do you blow up your engine through a Gearbox? I would love to know more.
Which heat sink are you referring to? The one for the radar?






Yes, and what is so wrong with putting in some elbow grease?




Point being, Al31FP with minimal "engineering" can satisfy pretty much any reasonable radar, this npower bogey raised on multiple platforms emanates from misinformed views.





Don't get me wrong, my contention is not to preach this is right or the wrong way; All I am saying is the idea that AL31FP is underpowered for a measly 100KW power output is absolutely ridiculous. Any design engineer worth his salt can design a gearbox (Which offcourse will not blow up the engine - thats not how gearboxes work)



Neither of them were..., both were Cots solutions, literally off the shelf. And both were actually very different cases.

If what you said is possible, then designers would have done it years ago, every time.

I'm referring to heat from the generator. Heat dissipiation from generators happens through convection and not forced cooling. So you can't willy nilly increase power generation without expecting increase in heat.

Ain't no such thing as "minimal engineering" when it comes to aircraft engines.

Really? Your statement is similar those kids protesting without knowing what they are protesting. Without a clue of what the power requirements are, you are absolutely sure its not. Do you know how much 40-50KW is in terms of low-level intelligent devices? We have 40-80 device bench testers which barely consume 5KW. I don't know what type of washing machines you think MKI is carrying in it's belly.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying you don't believe the Irbis-E consumes that much power?

An Air Force averse of risk, Sounds a bit antithetical. And also quite rich when the same airforce is quite content operating Cheetaks and Mig21 way past their best before date.

Cheetaks and Mig-21s are completely in their control. Any modification of AL-31FP puts the ball in Russian court, so nothing's in the IAF's control. What's reliability risks got to do with R&D risks?

The IAF's going to avoid R&D associated risks wherever possible. In fact this is the case with everybody, not just the IAF.

I would just like HAL to be proactive and work with Irkut to become an end-to-end solutions for Legacy Flanker and maybe even Fulcrum platforms. It's high time HAL needs to become an active player in the flanker market and start showing complete ownership of the IA MKI's service/overhaul/upgrade even if it has to put it's own crews in every MKI base.

They are already doing that for all the jets. Even during Gaganshakti, HAL personnel were closely working with the IAF at their bases, to which Dhanoa had only good words to say. The IAF is interested in working closely with the OEM.

But I dunno why you quoted this with the AK quote.

 

[randomradio]

The drive for generators in A320 is thru hydro-mechanical drive thru what is called IDG. So there is no direct mechanical link between the gearbox and Gen. The IDG contains CSD.

What I'm talking about connects the generator to the spool of the engine. The generator itself is placed inside the engine.

 

[vstol Jockey]

What I'm talking about connects the generator to the spool of the engine. The generator itself is placed inside the engine.

Yes got it from the link you posted. But I also read about a GE design which does something even different and bigger than this. I will search the link and post it tomorrow.

 

[randomradio]

Yes got it from the link you posted. But I also read about a GE design which does something even different and bigger than this. I will search the link and post it tomorrow.

Please do. I looked up for the solutions the ADVENT, AETD and AETP programs have come up with but didn't find anything.

 

[randomradio]

An interesting quote from Kladov, a director in Rostec.
Indo-Russian JV for Kamov choppers registered in India: Official
"We are offering a package for modernising the Su-30 aircraft. It will obtain new capabilities, it will be very close to the fifth generation aircraft in capabilities. This is a deep modernisation, everything should be changed engine, radar etc," he said.

Of course, he also goes on to say it's up to IAF if they want a full package or not. As of 2018, it was not finalised yet.

And this is from Madhavan.
India aims to export Sukhoi upgrade
The HAL chief confirmed that proposals have been discussed as recently as last month. “The configuration has not yet been finalized but the upgrade basically will include beyond visual range capability, new electronic warfare suites, an engine upgrade as well as a new radar,” Madhavan said.

So, even as of mid-2019, it wasn't finalised. However "engine upgrade" can mean anything. Either an AL-31FP++ with possibly a 1 ton thrust upgrade without changing the inlet diameter (and, of course, a new generator) or the 117S.

Well, in my book it's the 117S switch. Makes more sense. One can speculate the Russians have fixed problems on it ever since the Su-35 has been in service. The Su-30SM1 will also be in service for half a decade before the first Su-30UPG comes out. Whereas an upgraded AL-31FP++ will come with new problems. Hopefully information comes out this year.

Since an engine upgrade is planned, whether the AL-31FP is enough or not seems moot. Existing MKIs will be able to use the old engine all the way up to 2035, and get reengined with the upgraded one as they come in for overhauls sequentially.

In an unrelated subject, it appears the MKI UPG will have a new EW suite. Most likely combining an Indian ESM with some Russian emitters, including a Russian DIRCM. Don't quote me on this though, 'cause even we have our own stuff planned. And the delay is finalising the configuration could have allowed us to catch up.

 

[Austerlitz]

An interesting quote from Kladov, a director in Rostec.
Indo-Russian JV for Kamov choppers registered in India: Official
"We are offering a package for modernising the Su-30 aircraft. It will obtain new capabilities, it will be very close to the fifth generation aircraft in capabilities. This is a deep modernisation, everything should be changed engine, radar etc," he said.

Of course, he also goes on to say it's up to IAF if they want a full package or not. As of 2018, it was not finalised yet.

And this is from Madhavan.
India aims to export Sukhoi upgrade
The HAL chief confirmed that proposals have been discussed as recently as last month. “The configuration has not yet been finalized but the upgrade basically will include beyond visual range capability, new electronic warfare suites, an engine upgrade as well as a new radar,” Madhavan said.

So, even as of mid-2019, it wasn't finalised. However "engine upgrade" can mean anything. Either an AL-31FP++ with possibly a 1 ton thrust upgrade without changing the inlet diameter (and, of course, a new generator) or the 117S.

Well, in my book it's the 117S switch. Makes more sense. One can speculate the Russians have fixed problems on it ever since the Su-35 has been in service. The Su-30SM1 will also be in service for half a decade before the first Su-30UPG comes out. Whereas an upgraded AL-31FP++ will come with new problems. Hopefully information comes out this year.

Since an engine upgrade is planned, whether the AL-31FP is enough or not seems moot. Existing MKIs will be able to use the old engine all the way up to 2035, and get reengined with the upgraded one as they come in for overhauls sequentially.

In an unrelated subject, it appears the MKI UPG will have a new EW suite. Most likely combining an Indian ESM with some Russian emitters, including a Russian DIRCM. Don't quote me on this though, 'cause even we have our own stuff planned. And the delay is finalising the configuration could have allowed us to catch up.

EW suite will be same as mig29UPG plus new homemade MAAWS.

 

[randomradio]

EW suite will be same as mig29UPG plus new homemade MAAWS.

Logically, yeah, that's my thought as well. Maybe a 2nd generation version or even 3rd.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245613264542633993

 

[Milspec]

What I'm talking about connects the generator to the spool of the engine. The generator itself is placed inside the engine.

BS look up how an IDG works.

 

[randomradio]

BS look up how an IDG works.

No, I'm not talking about an IDG, there's no CDG involved at all, also an external generator.

It appears you missed the link I gave.

Rolls-Royce develops world-first electrical technology for next-generation Tempest programme
Back in 2014, the company took on the challenge of designing an electrical starter generator that was fully embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine, now known as the Embedded Electrical Starter Generator or E2SG demonstrator programme.

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

The launch of the second phase of the project in 2017 saw the inclusion of a second electrical generator connected to the other spool of the engine.

The two-spool mounted electrical machines allows, by combination of operation as either a motor or a generator, the production of a series of functional effects on the engine, including the transfer of power electrically between the two spools.

 

[Milspec]

No, I'm not talking about an IDG, there's no CDG involved at all, also an external generator.

It appears you missed the link I gave.

Rolls-Royce develops world-first electrical technology for next-generation Tempest programme
Back in 2014, the company took on the challenge of designing an electrical starter generator that was fully embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine, now known as the Embedded Electrical Starter Generator or E2SG demonstrator programme.

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

The launch of the second phase of the project in 2017 saw the inclusion of a second electrical generator connected to the other spool of the engine.

The two-spool mounted electrical machines allows, by combination of operation as either a motor or a generator, the production of a series of functional effects on the engine, including the transfer of power electrically between the two spools.

Multiple issues as it's still a prototype.
From the press release, it looks like permanent magnets coupled to the spool shaft,= so a DC generator.

Such a system in a brand new purely DC system is fine, Frequency won't be an issue, no issues of THDi, THDv, TDD.

But if you have AC systems in the Aircraft, you will lose close to half your payload in 24 (12 min) pulse autotransformers, chokes and input line reactors to mitigate the harmonics and frequency requirements.

So if you do end with such a Starter/Generator, each and every device, relay, fuse, mission comp, harnesses, on MKI will need to replaced. , and if not, I dont think even removing the gearbox will give you the space to put the 12PAT enclosure in the same space. (Not to mention your 12PAT and the VFD's too will need cooling systems)

 

[_Anonymous_]

Multiple issues as it's still a prototype.
From the press release, it looks like permanent magnets coupled to the spool shaft,= so a DC generator.

Such a system in a brand new purely DC system is fine, Frequency won't be an issue, no issues of THDi, THDv, TDD.

But if you have AC systems in the Aircraft, you will lose close to half your payload in 24 (12 min) pulse autotransformers, chokes and input line reactors to mitigate the harmonics and frequency requirements.

So if you do end with such a Stater/Generator, each and every device, relay, fuse, mission comp, harnesses, on MKI will need to replaced. , and if not, I dont think even removing the gearbox will give you the space to put the 12PAT enclosure in the same space. (Not to mention your 12PAT and the VFD's too will need cooling systems)

While this discussion is immensely interesting, what does it do to the original discussion you guys were having about an engine change as part of the MLU?

Just a few points of speculation from @randomradio to justify why he thinks the power generated by the existing powerplant for an AESA radar would be totally inadequate & the entire discussion went off on a tangent.

The technologies being developed by RR for the engine to power the Tempest - a 6th gen FA isn't merely to power avionics but also for prospective DEW. Incidentally, ADA claims the same would go into our AMCA - Mk2 while at present we don't even have a power plant in the kind of configuration needed as per ADA's requirements for Mk1 . How do you like that?

 

[Milspec]

While this discussion is immensely interesting, what does it do to the original discussion you guys were having about an engine change as part of the MLU?

Just a few points of speculation from @randomradio to justify why he thinks the power generated for an AESA radar would be inadequate & the entire discussion went off in a tangent.

I apologize.

Let me summarize my thoughts:

>Multiple blk type upgrade programs needed for Flanker family, and HAL should try to position itself as a lead integrator. (Read#1158)
>Few of the upgrade options should have AESA package, and new mission comps without engine change. ie powering a new AESA radar with the same Engine.
>If the AESA package leads to a total demand value that exceeds rated power o/p then a (gearbox/CSD)>IDG change. (Still cheaper than a new engine)

Final Thought: I have 100% faith in MoD/IAF brass to *censored* up the entire upgrade program up for MKI.

 

[Milspec]

The technologies being developed by RR for the engine to power the Tempest - a 6th gen FA isn't merely to power avionics but also for prospective DEW. Incidentally, ADA claims the same would go into our AMCA - Mk2 while at present we don't even have a power plant in the kind of configuration needed as per ADA's requirements for Mk1 . How do you like that?

What ADA means is it's already in queuing up to buy the engine.