T-90 Bhishma / T-72 Ajeya of Indian Army : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

This type of system need to be on top of every vehicle if they want survive going forward

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Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

We need to mount similar setup on Mahindra ALSV.

We have stuff that makes stuff like this look like a joke.

The problem for the US Army is they neglected EW capability for so long that they have to do such things to make survivable systems.

EW Needs $2B More A Year; 'Major Deficiencies' Found By Defense Science Board - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: A classified Defense Science Board study, now on the desk of Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work, recommends that the Pentagon invest an additional $2 billion a year in electronic warfare and create a high-level executive committee to oversee the four services’ EW spending. “We need...

breakingdefense.com

Otoh, the IA's EW capability is top notch.

LIC, Himraaj.

Samyukta and Himshakti.

https://twitter.com/x/status/965507105385009152

Some elements of these systems were put to use during the 2019 surgical strikes.

Tata Power SED beat Elta and BEL to get the IA's IEWS-MT (mountain terrain) contract a decade ago.

Here's a pretty decent article as to where we stood in 2014.

Indian Army C4ISR trends - News18

www.news18.com

 

[randomradio]

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Also it's worth noting Russian Industry a 'Stubborn' no change attitude is now looking at alternative design for new genration of tanks ( t14 aside ), New Concept Variant Of T90M Model Coming Out Of Russia Featuring Bustle Auto loader Along Other Modifications.

It's just a college project. It's not official.

 

[South block]

We have stuff that makes stuff like this look like a joke.

The problem for the US Army is they neglected EW capability for so long that they have to do such things to make survivable systems.

EW Needs $2B More A Year; 'Major Deficiencies' Found By Defense Science Board - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: A classified Defense Science Board study, now on the desk of Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work, recommends that the Pentagon invest an additional $2 billion a year in electronic warfare and create a high-level executive committee to oversee the four services’ EW spending. “We need...

breakingdefense.com

Otoh, the IA's EW capability is top notch.

LIC, Himraaj.

Samyukta and Himshakti.
View attachment 25255

View attachment 25256

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https://twitter.com/x/status/965507105385009152

Some elements of these systems were put to use during the 2019 surgical strikes.

Tata Power SED beat Elta and BEL to get the IA's IEWS-MT (mountain terrain) contract a decade ago.

Here's a pretty decent article as to where we stood in 2014.

Indian Army C4ISR trends - News18

www.news18.com

EW system are not the solution for all the problems. There are certain limitations for these systems to be effective specially ground based EW system from geography to distance to bandwidth to secure narrow directional communications data links etc enemy may use for their advantage....u need a hard kill system to be totally safe.

 

[randomradio]

EW system are not the solution for all the problems. There are certain limitations for these systems to be effective specially ground based EW system from geography to distance to bandwidth to secure narrow directional communications data links etc enemy may use for their advantage....u need a hard kill system to be totally safe.

That's part of our GBAD network.

The problem for the US is they don't have a proper one, they are far too reliant on their air force. The new reality for them is they can no longer ensure air supremacy, so now they have to start somewhere in building a proper GBAD network. They have a lot of half-arsed plans, and we will see some of those stop gap measures being deployed for quite a few years.

Example:

This will be replaced after a few years.

That anti-drone system posted earlier on the MRAPs is a half-arsed system too. Will be replaced with this...

Anyway, we have such DRDO-made anti-drone systems being inducted for base defence, whereas my previous post refers to mobile formations primarily. This is the navy's:

We are getting far more advanced systems than that. Gun-missile defences, along with DEWs, both laser and HPM, for wide area coverage. Some are already operational, some are in the process of becoming operational.

 

[South block]

U

That's part of our GBAD network.

The problem for the US is they don't have a proper one, they are far too reliant on their air force. The new reality for them is they can no longer ensure air supremacy, so now they have to start somewhere in building a proper GBAD network. They have a lot of half-arsed plans, and we will see some of those stop gap measures being deployed for quite a few years.

Example:

This will be replaced after a few years.

That anti-drone system posted earlier on the MRAPs is a half-arsed system too. Will be replaced with this...

Anyway, we have such DRDO-made anti-drone systems being inducted for base defence, whereas my previous post refers to mobile formations primarily. This is the navy's:
View attachment 25258

We are getting far more advanced systems than that. Gun-missile defences, along with DEWs, both laser and HPM, for wide area coverage. Some are already operational, some are in the process of becoming operational.

US design philosophy here is trying to provide every Armoured vehicle a EW + Hard kill capability & not solely relying on dedicated EW system to do the job everytime , who's capabilities are restricted by multiple factors as mentioned in my above post including ground based system like samyukta & Himshakti


system like this with hard kill systems is a must going forward for every armoured vehicle

Jet-Powered Coyote Drone Defeats Swarm In Army Tests

 

[Lolwa]

It's other way around >>

ERA MK2 which is basically K5 but better metallurgy of plates, conventional ERAs are only capable of defeating shaped-charge jets, MK2 can also defeat APFSDS rounds. Because of MK2, long-rod penetrators can lose over +30% of their penetration potential and the protected vehicle becomes immune to them.

It is believed that while protected by Kontakt-5 ERA or MK2, MBTs cannot be penetrated across the frontal arc by the M256 guns firing M829A1 APFSDS ammo. In addition, thanks to their heavier (15 mm hard steel) front plate, the ERA elements are harder to trigger by the precursor charges of tandem warheads, forcing the producers of tandem ATGMs to allocate more mass to precursor charge and, making an MBT more resistant to tandem HEAT warheads, as well.

It is very important to note that while light ERA containers are completely destroyed in the process of detonation, Kontakt-5 or MK2 sections are not, as their detonation is contained by the outside armor plates. Therefore even after detonation Kontakt-5 or MK2 sections continue to provide some applique protection.

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==============================

fy-4 can defeat Tandam warhead so does MK2 but MK2 can also defend from APFSDS which is vital as most tank engage each other with APFSDS.

Sirjee fy-4 era is said to be relikt tier in terms of performance. It could easily handle our konkurs or milan atgms unless the tank is hit on sides. We do need an era-mk 3 with thicker plates that can replicate or copy relikts performance and more volume and also need to work on an AMAP equivalent for NERA protection.

Advanced Modular Armor Protection - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

We already have NERA & Already seen it on MK2 platform.

also need to work on an AMAP equivalent for NERA protection.

Advanced Modular Armor Protection - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[South block]

Against HEAT or Tandam HEAT, Yes but not APFSDS..

We already have NERA & Already seen it on MK2 platform.

NERA on Mk 2 where ?

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

I just edited & posted some snaps, also will add those skirts on MK2 or MK1A are not steel sheets but NERA stuff..

NERA on Mk 2 where ?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593936917388988417

 

[Lolwa]

We already have NERA & Already seen it on MK2 platform.


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I know we have NERA on the Arjuna but it's a generation behind in my personal opinion. I have no data to back this up but this is the thing that's been bugging me for too long. DRDO seems to not know how to position nera blocks correctly on the Arjun. I will just put in a comparison. That's the entire reason Mk1a feels like a half assed tank.

This is Arjun mk1a. As you can see the sides have era but hull protection is barebones. As compared to foreign leopard upgrades. This is the Switzerland's RUAG upgrade for comparison which in my opinion is the best version of a 2a4 upgrade.

See how they have such thick side armour along with complete turret protection along with cage armour to protect the sights.
Compared to this Arjun does seem to have lot of weak points.
This is the Turkish upgrade

Even they have thicker coverage of the hull with nera and complete covering of the turret.
Now for the German upgrade.

This is in Singapore service but upgraded by the Germans. See how the side hull is protected with both nera and side armour.
The Arjun Mk1a still hasn't covered. And I don't know why army still hasn't asked for covering the exposed turret.

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

DRDO does not do anything on it's own but under supervision of Indian Army, their are officer part of DGMF who guides designers about what Army want and where, about the add-on stuff the Army issued it's requirement when such things were rare and new and not yet in active war to be called proven concept..

I know we have NERA on the Arjuna but it's a generation behind in my personal opinion. I have no data to back this up but this is the thing that's been bugging me for too long. DRDO seems to not know how to position nera blocks correctly on the Arjun. I will just put in a comparison. That's the entire reason Mk1a feels like a half assed tank.View attachment 25277
This is Arjun mk1a. As you can see the sides have era but hull protection is barebones. As compared to foreign leopard upgrades. This is the Switzerland's RUAG upgrade for comparison which in my opinion is the best version of a 2a4 upgrade.
View attachment 25278
See how they have such thick side armour along with complete turret protection along with cage armour to protect the sights.
Compared to this Arjun does seem to have lot of weak points.
This is the Turkish upgradeView attachment 25279View attachment 25280
Even they have thicker coverage of the hull with nera and complete covering of the turret.
Now for the German upgrade.View attachment 25281View attachment 25282

This is in Singapore service but upgraded by the Germans. See how the side hull is protected with both nera and side armour.
The Arjun Mk1a still hasn't covered. And I don't know why army still hasn't asked for covering the exposed turret.

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

Upgraded T-72M1 CIA already tested by Army some time back, not sure why Army is not going forward with it..

 

[randomradio]

U

US design philosophy here is trying to provide every Armoured vehicle a EW + Hard kill capability & not solely relying on dedicated EW system to do the job everytime , who's capabilities are restricted by multiple factors as mentioned in my above post including ground based system like samyukta & Himshakti


system like this with hard kill systems is a must going forward for every armoured vehicle

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Jet-Powered Coyote Drone Defeats Swarm In Army Tests

This system is part of GBADS. The American system is not meant for every vehicle, it's simply part of their new GBADS they are building, so it's a standalone system no different from any other SAM system. It's more like an anti-drone Pantsir. Systems like Pantsir, Biho etc are superior to it.

What you are specifically referring to is an EW+DEW system as an APS. This is gonna be a part of FRCV and FICV. I don't know if the DEW will be mounted on a tank or will be standalone as part of the formation though. Plus I don't know what sort of targets it will be able to attack, presumably everything below HEAT/APFSDS; so soldiers, thin-skinned vehicles, engines, drones, ATGMs and so on.

 

[randomradio]

I know we have NERA on the Arjuna but it's a generation behind in my personal opinion. I have no data to back this up but this is the thing that's been bugging me for too long. DRDO seems to not know how to position nera blocks correctly on the Arjun. I will just put in a comparison. That's the entire reason Mk1a feels like a half assed tank.View attachment 25277
This is Arjun mk1a. As you can see the sides have era but hull protection is barebones. As compared to foreign leopard upgrades. This is the Switzerland's RUAG upgrade for comparison which in my opinion is the best version of a 2a4 upgrade.
View attachment 25278
See how they have such thick side armour along with complete turret protection along with cage armour to protect the sights.
Compared to this Arjun does seem to have lot of weak points.
This is the Turkish upgradeView attachment 25279View attachment 25280
Even they have thicker coverage of the hull with nera and complete covering of the turret.
Now for the German upgrade.View attachment 25281View attachment 25282
This is in Singapore service but upgraded by the Germans. See how the side hull is protected with both nera and side armour.
The Arjun Mk1a still hasn't covered. And I don't know why army still hasn't asked for covering the exposed turret.

Who cares about armour placement when there's that big gaping hole right in the middle? Arjun is a hobby tank, not a real tank. Way too many armour holes to actually be a serious contender against any serious adversary. It was designed during a time when tank guns were not very accurate.

All the focus in the future will switch over to FRCV with an armour capsule, so that will take care of the Arjun's main problem.

Except armour, the Arjun Mk1A is good everywhere else, so at least we are assured of DRDO's design capabilities.

Side armour isn't very important to India, so it doesn't matter as much. It's mainly necessary for urban combat, which is not our objective. All we need is protection in a 30deg arc. So the reduced armour need will give us advantages in all-up weight, ground pressure and mobility requirements. Of course, Pakistan is urbanising quickly, so that will play a major part in future tank designs, which could show that the Arjun is based on very old design standards for armour.

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

I don't think the much hyped main gun sight placement hold much water when we know T90/72 also have such around coax..

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

Interesting fact about T-72M1, once hit in turret it cannot be repaired but completly replaced as the composite Armour in it cannot be removed.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1595999734753525760

I think our VSHORAD tested recently should be able to do all the tasks the 9M333 missile used in strela 10 does.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1595999734753525760

I think our VSHORAD tested recently should be able to do all the tasks the 9M333 missile used in strela 10 does.

Gotta combine it with a 30/57mm cannon and a radar + EOS and put it on tracks, like a BMP-2. We can then replace Strela and Shilka.

I believe private companies are already doing that.

 

[South block]

What we need is a TOR M2