I will say this much. Taliban or afghans are way fractious. Sooner or later another splinter will come forth. This is not the first time that has happened. Remember Mujahideens?
BTW, to be hones, what are our biggest interests in Afghanistan?
Taliban wants positive relationship with India, welcomes New Delhi's contribution in Afghanistan
- Thread starter Ginvincible
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BTW, to be hones, what are our biggest interests in Afghanistan?
Yeh tou lolwa ho gaya.
What's Ajit Duval thinking. After creating such a large network in Afghanistan to support terrorism in Pakistan, it all ended abruptly
P.S. Pakistani embassy is still there and functional.
Only 200 staff working in the embassy is evacuated .............even a cleaner working in dovals office will have a common sense to understand that a large network cant be just 200
You should stop talking like CCP online warrior ..............the only reason so called 40% less than India per capita country appeared more successful strategically is........... there was no politician who had pair to just do 3 things (surgical Strike, Article 370, Balakot ) to alter the equation almost permanently . So dont make 7 feet person out of Pakistanis for dealing with a opponent like Sonia and manmohan
If you are 6 times the size in population, 10 times in economy and god knows how many times in military might and opponent is still able to prevent you from punishing it while supporting every single possible insurgency on you, taking out your fighters then in a long run it is more successful than you are. Leadership etc are reason but it does not discount the fact that they are able to dictate terms on an enemy 10x bigger than them. Thats called punching about your weight. India always punches below its weight and misses them constantly. It squanders away strategic gains in every treaty signed.
And no, India has not altered the equation in Kashmir permanently till it significantly changes the demography of the region. Pakistan did that in PoK and GB. India has not till date. Not to mention, India started back channel diplomacy with Pakistan as soon as a little heat from China came up.
BTW, Pakistan is NOT 7 feet person, it is a 3 feet midget that bring a 10 feet giant to its feets. And thats an achievement.
China did whatever they could on their own, without bothering others. We also did the same, we tested nukes, did not sign the NPT, CTBT etc.
As for Taiwan, the Chinese made a deal with the US to stand as a bulwark against the Soviet Union. We also signed a similar deal with the SU. I had touched upon the subject before. In exchange for become a pseudo-stooge to the US and SU, both China and India received a lot of political and military benefits. We received help in 1971 and 1984. And in China's case, the Americans earned their support by derecognising Taiwan and transferring quite a bit of military tech, and of course the obvious economic benefits. The US wouldn't have done this had they known the SU was headed towards oblivion. Our benefits are lower because we were on the losing side.
In both cases, both India and China only took care of their own interests without bothering others.
That's the magic word: "bothering". Both countries kept to their own. The Chinese did it for 40 years. And only since a decade they began actively bothering others, after they became a $5000 economy, ie, an upper middle income country where people are more or less rich enough to pay for basic services on their own. Before achieving that they made sure not to step on anyone's toes. Even all the main border problems with India began after China became a $10T economy. In fact, keeping to themselves was one of their guiding principles in diplomacy. We are following the same thing, ie not taking sides in the Middle East, sticking to only UN missions in Africa, only having political and economic relations with ASEAN (which is slowly extending towards the military because of QUAD, and America's support, so a bit before its time).
Look it up yourself, until they became an upper middle income country, they played no part anywhere outside their borders. Even during the Iran-Iraq war, they stayed away. And after the Gulf War, they retreated even more and completely shifted their focus towards their economy and military R&D, they even started cutting down their military to size.
Give it a decade, and you will start seeing India interfering in the workings of other countries, ie, after we become an upper middle income country. Money talks.
And you've got it the other way round. Even though India is much stronger than Pakistan, Pak is still a nuclear power with a large army. Otoh, even after threatening to take Taiwan away every other year since the 50s, China, a ridiculouly more powerful country compared to Taiwan, a member of the P5, a nuclear weapons power, a great military power, has never had the guts to take the tiny little island away by force. So your argument works the other way round.
Unless you can lock horns with the biggest bull in the ranch, it's best for you to just sit down, chew cud and bide your time. The Chinese did it successfully, and we plan on repeating the same. Can't do jackshit without money.
First China did "bother" others. It sided with Russia during early cold war and gained access to ballastic missile technology and A-Bomb design. Its bomb bothered the west and especially nations aligned with west like Taiwan. During early cold war, siding with Russians and possessing nuclear arms were cardinal sins in the eyes of the west.
And No. We did not do the same.
We took 27 years to test A-Bomb and another 25 to test H-Bomb and that too likely failed. Since then we have not done any further test.
For us, if we had followed China's model, we would have initially sided with either US or SU, develop nuclear weapons as fast as possible and then if required switch partner. Nehru though understood importance of nuclear weapons but did not push for their development after we gained independence. His policy with Bhaba was to ask if he can make bombs and then tell him do not do it till I order it. It was followed by stupid pacifists like Vikram Sarabhai who totally sidelined India's nuclear weapons program due to his extremely stupid Gandhian philosophy. 1950s and 60s were the time when entire world was chasing after nuclear weapons. We decided to wait and sleep.
He was a narcissist who thought that his persona is better than Nuclear weapons in defending his kingdom.
You can add China's border war with Vietnam in the late 70's & their clashes with the Vietnamese in the late 80's early 90's over the Spratlys , passing N tech to NoKo & Paxtan as well as aiding them in Missile technology , providing missile tech to Iran , sabre rattling against Taiwan when it's president won on a platform of seeking independence to it .
All this is just since the late 70's since Deng took over with his famous maxim of hide your strength bide your time .
If you go back to Mao's era , consider the Korean war , multiple skirmishes against Taiwan prompting US threats & intervention , border wars with USSR & India as well as supporting communist movements across ASEAN , Asia & Africa with arms , finance , access to education , military training etc .
Lol @" bothering "
Lol, we worked on nukes at our own pace. As for China's past, even current Chinese officials admit they overreached themselves during Mao's times and made a lot of mistakes.
I'd really like to see what examples you have about China bothering other countries between 1980 and 2007 though.
You probably don't remember but we split an American treaty ally into two in the early 70s.
Such characters here. People are talking about Mao and whatnot when I particularly referred to the last 40 years.
"The Chinese, even as part of the P5, could do very little towards their own interests when they were also worth only $2000. Even they took the help of Russia from time to time while not interfering in the security of other nations since the 80s."
"That's the magic word: "bothering". Both countries kept to their own. The Chinese did it for 40 years."
Mao died, China changed.
America stepped in and China was done. They slinked back into their country and stayed silent all the way until they started getting rich. I don't get how this escapes people.
Hell, China was so scared of doing anything to upset the West that they even silently suffered the humiliation of Hong Kong's alternate political system right under their very noses. Even India changed Kashmir's status, a nucler flashpoint, long before the Chinese could change Hong Kong's status.
"The Chinese, even as part of the P5, could do very little towards their own interests when they were also worth only $2000. Even they took the help of Russia from time to time while not interfering in the security of other nations since the 80s."
"That's the magic word: "bothering". Both countries kept to their own. The Chinese did it for 40 years."
Mao died, China changed.
America stepped in and China was done. They slinked back into their country and stayed silent all the way until they started getting rich. I don't get how this escapes people.
Hell, China was so scared of doing anything to upset the West that they even silently suffered the humiliation of Hong Kong's alternate political system right under their very noses. Even India changed Kashmir's status, a nucler flashpoint, long before the Chinese could change Hong Kong's status.
You mean the so called "Hindu rate of progress", right? You cann't walk at "your own pace" when you have wolves behind you. Wolves like China and Pakistan.
First define what do you mean by "bothering"? Because this concept is not well understood at least by me when it comes to international politics or international relationships.
Indeed we did and that has paid us well. However that one single stroke of decisive action was the exception that proved the rule. Just after that glorious victory we threw all those advantages away at 1972 Simla agreement by returning strategically important places in Karakoram pass to Pakistan. We also did not take that opportunity to end our "chicken's neck" problem once and for all by forcing B'desh to give us a strip through its territory on a long term lease basis to construct roads and railways connecting northeast to rest of India better.
China was considered a nuclear have. There's nothing special what they did because as a P5 they were considered to be a party that holds nukes.
It was India that was denied the right to hold nukes, and it was India that showed the world the finger. When it came to nukes, China only did what the West had already accepted. So there's nothing special about China becoming a nuclear power. This is politically India's win.
Any kind of major interference that affects global powers. Like Russia helping out Syria.
We don't know what happened behind the scenes. Both the US and SU wanted India out of BD after it was created, so we left. And even the SU did not allow India to take the war to the west. Regardless, we split an American treaty ally into two.
Otoh, since the 80s, all China has done is marginally bully their neighbours a bit here and there or else by and large they have been very, very silent.
Until their push towards the SCS in the mid-2010s, ie, after they got rich, the only time the Chinese upset the West since the 80s was in relation to their own internal politics, like Tiananmen Square, Falun Gong, other type of HR violations, however all protected by Chinese territorial sovereignty. Other than that, they kept their noses clean.
They started their dredging work in the SCS when they became worth over $10T and they militarised the SCS when they became worth $12T. They took over Hong Kong when they crossed $13T and they took action at Galwan after they crossed $14T. However from 1980 to 2016 or so, they literally did nothing that would upset the US outside their borders.
India's Nuclear Weapons Program - On to Weapons Development: 1960-1967
Indian Nuclear Program
Oft cited evidence that India had the capacity to manufacture basic atomic devices by 1960-62 but Nehru & later Shastri kept denying Bhabha's entreaties to test it .
So much for worked at our own pace ...
At a dinner on October 10, 1974, in honour of the Finance Minister, Kissinger gave a concrete shape to his thoughts. Kaul reported to Kewal Singh: Kissinger would like to enter into a confidential bilateral or multilateral understanding with us that no nuclear country would transfer nuclear technology including underground nuclear explosive technology to any other (non-nuclear?) country except under adequate safeguards. He said if some suitable formula could be worked out he would then be able to meet criticism in the Congress and elsewhere and Indias position as a nuclear power would be recognised by the whole world. He did not think China would join any such understanding, but France and other nuclear powers would (emphasis added throughout). That surely was not a gain to be sniffed at.
The above excerpts clearly prove the deep cleavage in inter personal & inter state ties between both US & India as well as the personal hatred deep distrust & hostility shared between Indira Gandhi & Kissinger particularly by the former towards the latter which jeopardized our chances of joining the NPT as a N weapon power & be treated as a pariah for the next 4 decades.
But all this understanding & knowledge requires first & foremost an interest apart from a grounding which comes automatically from perusing various journals & articles including authors specialising in these matters apart from a will to seek the truth else one can always spin this the way one always does in every such thread mixing up facts & fiction to churn out faction much like a chaat vendor does his chaat .
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Wow, "worked at our own pace" doesn't mean we took forever designing the bomb. How retarded can one get?
It still doesn't change the fact that China was politically obedient for the last 40 years.
It still doesn't change the fact that China was politically obedient for the last 40 years.
I just happened to see this video & guffawed. Then I had an epiphany. Of course , The boy couldn't possibly wrestle the ox into submission & It's not as if the boy was unaware of it but it's just the impulse to do so which seized him & which he couldn't shake off which prompted him into this foolhardy act & resulted in him landing on his head minus any serious injury ( hopefully ) . It could've been far worse . Thankfully it wasn't.
Much like Pinnochio / Bluffmaster / Chaat Vendor / Story teller here . Deep down he can tell truth from falsehood but those sudden flights of fancy seize hold of him & demand an outlet which the poor chap here can't resist / could never resist in the 6-7 yrs I've encountered him & hence the outpourings of fact + fiction = faction which gets fancier & fancier as one probes deeper & deeper.
The diagnosis is sad . He needs help , I realised & Not ridicule. On that note I think I should stop hounding the sick & the stupid like Paddy out here . It's says something about me too , I guess .
1980-2015: Post Mao era.
US: We fought 13 wars.
Russia: We fought 12 wars.
India: We fought 1 war, 1 skirmish and conducted 3 overseas military operations. We also mobilised for full scale war with a de facto nuclear weapons state.
China: We fought a phony war with Vietnam, a la, Indo-Pak shelling. But we also killed a few fishermen in the SCS and as usual threatened Taiwan every other day as per state policy.
Indian ignorants: China is amazing. India sucks. 'Cause Mao.
FP experts in China: We were stupid during Mao's time. We're glad the post-Mao govt made the right decisions over the last few decades.
Indian ignorants: Whatever. India sucks. China is amazing. Mao. Mao.
It gets worse: I said...
"Unless you can lock horns with the biggest bull in the ranch..."
One ignorant proceeds to give an example of why you shouldn't catch a bull by its horns when you are a light weight, the entire crux of my argument. Seriously... There's nothing here.
US: We fought 13 wars.
Russia: We fought 12 wars.
India: We fought 1 war, 1 skirmish and conducted 3 overseas military operations. We also mobilised for full scale war with a de facto nuclear weapons state.
China: We fought a phony war with Vietnam, a la, Indo-Pak shelling. But we also killed a few fishermen in the SCS and as usual threatened Taiwan every other day as per state policy.
Indian ignorants: China is amazing. India sucks. 'Cause Mao.
FP experts in China: We were stupid during Mao's time. We're glad the post-Mao govt made the right decisions over the last few decades.
Indian ignorants: Whatever. India sucks. China is amazing. Mao. Mao.
It gets worse: I said...
"Unless you can lock horns with the biggest bull in the ranch..."
One ignorant proceeds to give an example of why you shouldn't catch a bull by its horns when you are a light weight, the entire crux of my argument. Seriously... There's nothing here.
are you ok? why are you talking to your yourself?1980-2015: Post Mao era.
US: We fought 13 wars.
Russia: We fought 12 wars.
India: We fought 1 war, 1 skirmish and conducted 3 overseas military operations. We also mobilised for full scale war with a de facto nuclear weapons state.
China: We fought a phony war with Vietnam, a la, Indo-Pak shelling. But we also killed a few fishermen in the SCS and as usual threatened Taiwan every other day as per state policy.
Indian ignorants: China is amazing. India sucks. 'Cause Mao.
FP experts in China: We were stupid during Mao's time. We're glad the post-Mao govt made the right decisions over the last few decades.
Indian ignorants: Whatever. India sucks. China is amazing. Mao. Mao.
It gets worse: I said...
"Unless you can lock horns with the biggest bull in the ranch..."
One ignorant proceeds to give an example of why you shouldn't catch a bull by its horns when you are a light weight, the entire crux of my argument. Seriously... There's nothing here.
Only one reason that is , your MEA and PMO is not on board with intelligence and military. This leads to absence of a concrete policy regarding your neighboring countries.
Chanakaya says never keep good relations with your neighbours otherwise you won't be able to take their territory. India follows this but half.