Does my post looks like I agree with what you've posted in the OP? The CCMB studies was limited to DNA mitochondrial samples from the maternal side which shows a continuation over a period of 8-10000 years with no disruption whatsoever.
The Collision that Formed India: What genetics reveals about Indian origins
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Yes I know.
That was their Indian research finding.
Did you read the part about how the Indian side and the western authors came to an understanding?
This is often how research happens.
It's not the packaging of the finding and the conclusions that count.
It's the raw findings that do.
Conclusions and discussions are subjective.
Data never is.
There is a reason why the whole international community does not take the OOI theory seriously.
It's because a narrative is being chased and made to evolve out if political nationalism.
It's been transparent to the world for a long time now.
Cheers, Doc
History is mostly subjective and based on interpretations. No one can prove anything conclusively that happened 1000s of years ago , historians , anthropologist can only speculate on basis of available sources.
The whole interpreted History can change in a second if new sources are discovered , so everyone lets agree to disagree
The whole interpreted History can change in a second if new sources are discovered , so everyone lets agree to disagree
It's the methodology used that determines the data - raw or otherwise. Similarly it's the data that determines the analysis and conclusion. Please read about Sforza's work in this regard and Reich's critique of Sforza's methodology and analysis. You'd perhaps realise then why am I a skeptic.
Please also refer to the findings of an equestrian animal in Rakhigarhi (?) & a cart / chariot in a Royal burial site somewhere last year thought to be more than 5000 years old. So far, none of the skeletal remains there have exhibited any traces of the so called Central Asian genepool. AIT proponents have argued that this is proof that their theory holds for they argue the AIT occured somewhere around 3500-4000 years ago.
How do you reconcile that with the RgVeda vast tomes of which were composed by the Saraswati which if current data is to be believed is the Ghaggar Hakra river Basin which went dry 4000 years ago coinciding exactly with the timeline of the so called AIT.
I'm not denying that point of yours at all.
Nor am I saying that Islam did not capture a small western fringe of greater China.
Cheers, Doc
The paper and the data show that there was no one single "invasion".
There were multiple waves of (more politically acceptable) "migration between after 4000 years ago to as early as 2000 years ago per the dating technique, with most of the admixture happening vigorously around the time of the dying of the IVC and the subsequent writing of the Rig Veda.
BUT
The Rig Veda always existed BEFORE that.
Passed down verbally (just like ours).
And the jury is DEFINITELY out there based on multiple references about the fact that where it was spoken first is definitely not the Indian subcontinent. And I guess we've both read both sides interpretations of those names and references.
When a tome that has developed over hundreds if not over a thousand years is written down a lot later, details within it all converge to a much narrower time band.
The compression of history. And the blurring of chronology.
It's why we still have the debate.
It's why genetics more than any other tool might (in my mind, already has) cut the Gordian knot.
Cheers, Doc
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The paper itself says that the first invasion / migration occured nearly 6-7000 years ago. I could throw the data from Rakhigarhi / Bhirrana at you then where it's been conclusively established that the remains there haven't exhibited any strains from the so called Central Asian gene pool at the heart of the debate here and exactly what the paper you quote is all about.
So, the jury is definitely out.
I personally do not fully buy a lot of connections and inferences he's made.
On caste. Social structure. Power dynamics. Etc.
The gender bit is easily rxplsy by the fact that when small fast mobile hordes migrate, they do not with the old, women and children in tow.
A far stretch to a more powerful invader.
More the adolescent lion out if the pride looking for a new pride syndrome.
Cheers, Doc
Okay, so you want to have a debate. I have read half of the article you posted, and it is full of Bull Crap.
Let me point out massive misinterpretation of the first statement of the article itself which lead to irresponsible and concocted follow up writing.
Let me first set the context before I reply to the quoted statement.
You need to know about the diversity and purpose of Vedic texts. They are meant to bring people on the right path - to unite the "purusha" (soul) in them with the Supreme source by eliminating indulgence in "prakriti" (materialism), instead using it just enough in order to sustain life. Prakriti lies in using the Intellect, the mind (I wish, I will, I think), our senses and our body for indulgence in temporary pleasure. The more one indulges, the more the desire becomes insatiable. It does not focuses towards eternal happiness.
It is the "Daivik" propensity which takes human being towards the Supreme Source, and it is the "Daitya" or "Maayavi" which enslaves the body, senses, mind and intellect towards the "prakriti", thus making the "soul" a "dasa" of the "prakriti". Indra is the king of the "Devtas"
You have to prep the situation in order to achieve the results. You cannot straight start teaching Calculus to a kid before teaching elementary math, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, etc. Rig Veda is the preliminary learning and its philosophy and knowledge and its essence is in the Upnishads, and the ultimate "gyaan" knowledge in Bhagvat Geeta.
The four Vedas through Shruti and Smriti, and recitation, are for the performance of the rituals - Yagnya. With repeated performance of the Yagnya, the mind trains the soul towards the Supreme Source, and learns to get control over the inducements "prakriti" offers to repeatedly fall down into the "Naraka" hell of this "Mrityu loka"
Understanding the above basis of Hinduism, now read the quoted first statement again as below
In the oldest text of Hinduism, the Rig Veda, the warrior god (your internal energies and qualities which makes you fight the inducements from prakriti to avoid falling repeatedly into hell)
Indra rides against his “impure enemies,” or dasa (prakriti, which enslaves you),
in a horse-drawn chariot (the five senses are your horses which drive your actions, mind and speech chariot (mana, karam, vachan) - it can drive you wild if you let it loose and fall in the trap of prakriti, or will lead you to your destination of the Supreme source - it depends on the individual's effort and conscious choices he/she makes),
destroys their fortresses (the belief that your sense organs make you believe that the material world is the ultimate truth, and its materialism), or pur,
and secures land and water (land represents the matter needed to survive your body and water represents your mind, manas, energy controlled by moon) for his people, the arya, or Arya (the noble ones, who are on the path of the "purusha").
Never dare to write, read, understand or peddle a PhD thesis without going through the Kindergarten classes and above.
Reading the rest and replying to it is a WASTE of my time!!!
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Dude.
He's a Jew.
He and his entire team are western geneticists.
Where are you arguing from?
This is clearly not the thread for your line. @Guynextdoor has a thread on the Vedas. That would be more appropriate.
Cheers, Doc
There is no bigger troll than you. And for sure, you are masquerading here in the name of scholarly debates.
You are better off sipping your coffee, tea, reading papers and on phone.
This is how you escape debates and make people to waste their time and energy on this forum.
His argument is consistent with what many in the Western world and many in India do when they hold the Rg Veda up as the touchstone to which argument for or against the AIT is to be made. Is the Rg Veda a philosophical text or is it a text with references to the Aryan way of life? Should it be consulted when referring to the geography of the land including the flora and fauna of the place? Should it be consulted to view it a compendium of the names of eminent persons and places listed?How does one distil information from it?
A lot of Western writers of Indian historiography have simply stopped referring much to the Rg Veda when writing down such reports.
Of course I'm an apex troll man.
Old school. Very educated. Very articulate.
But this thread is not for that.
Cheers, Doc
I am asking for the 4th time, sir. Provide me the genetic admixture data of Parsis, if any. If u seem to conveniently ignore me why did u even tag me along with others in the first place?
Bro please read the title of this thread!
Start another one of your own with your line of argument and a paper or publication.
Then let's dance.
Cheers, Doc
Don't waste your breath. What he'd never be caught dead doing is something which will self incriminate himself! He's a bawa. Crazy and eccentric and sometimes stupid. Not always.
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Please refer to 10 years of heated debates with Iranis at the other place.
I'm very serious where blood is involved.
Especially in the real world.
Am I a racist bigot. Some would say so.
But I don't do low level abuse and I appreciate that about some rare ones like you.
Cheers, Doc
How can you claim that Zorastrians are our ancestors when the origin of your faith is known? It was started by Saint Zarathustra in 1500BC. While the origin of our Dharma is much older. And no one knows who started it because it was not propagated by an individual but it is directly given to us by the Parbramha. @vsdoc
@VstolJockey Chachaji you should also have a look.
@VstolJockey Chachaji you should also have a look.
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