The Quad (US, Japan, India, Australia Security Dialogue) : Updates and Discussions
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Ukraine applied for a NATO Membership Action Plan in 2008.
Ukraine and NATO Following Bucharest
Steven Pifer writes that even though the recent NATO summit in Bucharest did not deliver a memership action plan for Ukraine, the outcome of the meeting was positive because NATO leaders said Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance - something that NATO has never said about a country that...
www.brookings.edu
What Happened and Why. In mid-January, the Ukrainian government asked NATO to agree to a membership action plan (MAP) for Ukraine at the April Bucharest summit. In the end, a number of European members blocked consensus for three reasons: (1) the low level of public support in Ukraine for joining NATO; (2) the strained cohabitation between President Yushchenko and the presidential administration, on the one hand, and Prime Minister Tymoshenko and the cabinet, on the other; and (3) the possible Russian reaction.
Who's lying now?
All three are dumb reasons. Anyway, NATO may not want Ukraine, but that counts for jack when the Ukrainians are announcing to Russia and the world that they want to become Russia's enemy. And 2008 is when Ukraine became Russia's official enemy. Things went slow when a pro-Russian govt showed up in 2010. Once that govt was deposed, even though it was working against Russian interests, Russia began to treat Ukraine like an enemy state, which came to a head in 2014 and intensified in Sept 2022.
It's the same with QUAD. If we are to formalise an alliance with the US, it means we are writing the end of our relationship with China in stone. It's ridiculous to think we won't get attacked by China if problems unrelated to India but involving the US happens elsewhere.
One thing I've learned about our modern world today is countries are basically gangs that control territories. And relationships are about firepower and leverage. If a country can do something and can handle the repercussions, then it will get away with it. If China wants to take Mongolia tomorrow and Russia is fine with it, then Mongolia ceases to exist. If the US wants to bomb a country and no one powerful enough physically stops that from happening, then the US gets away with it. It's all about hard power. This is the "rules-based world" the West created after the Cold War.
Not necessarily indicative, based on voting patterns, Scotland should have voted for independence in 2013. Not everyone who votes for the SNP wants independence. Equally, not everyone who voted for more Russia friendly parties in Ukraine wanted to be annexed, and now even less.
It never is. God knows, there's no economic argument for Scotland leaving the UK, quite the opposite, and let's not kid ourselves, there is no freedom in Russia.
Either you have it, or you don't
worldpopulationreview.com
en.wikipedia.org
Freedom Index by Country 2024
List of freedom indices - Wikipedia
So , as per this list , all compiled by organisations in the west mostly sponsored by their own governments , India is either partially free / democratic , partially repressed or completely repressed.Either you have it, or you don't
Freedom Index by Country 2024
List of freedom indices - Wikipedia
Jomo Kenyatta : when the white man came to my lands , my people had the land & they had the book & cross so they said if you want to see a miracle , close your eyes , When my people opened their eyes , truly a miracle had occurred , we had the book & cross & they had our lands.
Replace the book & cross for democracy & human rights & voila - Some things never change.
Pops , this mini documentary here is <14 min long & about koalas entitled - When Stupidity Is A Survival Strategy .
& This one too , The Very Stupid Biology of the Koala
Me thinks it's an apt metaphor for Aussies & Oz . Why , you ask ? Well see the documentaries & let us know What're your thoughts ?
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You have neither in Russia.
It will get worse too, because Ukraine now has drones capable of reaching hundreds of miles into Russia. Today was airbases and strategic bombers, tomorrow with be Moscow's electricity and gas supply just in time for Christmas.
North Korea did not score.Either you have it, or you don't
Freedom Index by Country 2024
List of freedom indices - Wikipedia
Ukraine wanted a MAP in 2008. They did not get one.
However, a MAP is not the same thing as joining. It's a an action plan for how to eventually join. Serbia got a MAP in 2008, are they in NATO now? Do they want to join NATO now? In 2008, the Ukrainian population was largely opposed to NATO membership. A petition requesting referendum before any further move towards NATO membership was widely supported, with over two million signatures and polls saying that 58% of the population agreed with the idea of a referendum first. The opposition, which took an anti-NATO stance, won the next elections. After that, the idea of Ukraine joining NATO was abandoned... until Russia attacked Ukraine in 2014.
Except Russia did not treat NATO countries as enemy states in 2008.
It's just Russia being hypocritical. NATO membership means that they cannot bully and coerce, which is the only thing they want to do with their neighbors, which is why they want to join NATO.
The invasion of Ukraine has killed the CSTO. All the Central Asia republics are going with China and Turkey as their protectors now. Another masterstroke from four-dimensional chessmaster Putin.
Do you think they had a choice? Never mind the fact that they had internal issues to fix first.
So NATO was enemies with the Warsaw Pact and then with Russia, but the Russians aren't enemies with NATO. ~Sheep logic~
Or is it possible that Russia is dealing with enemies they think they can destroy and get away with?
Not at all. After giving endless amounts of chances, they are now dealing with Ukraine like it's an enemy state.
All big countries "bully" small countries. But there's no real definition of "bullying" in this context. It's just political and economic interests not converging in harmony for a peaceful co-existence. So big countries typically make concessions to small countries in exchange for loyalty. But loyalty must happen first, and that didn't happen between Russia and Ukraine.
Subject to Russia's aspirations.
What do want to say?
Ukraine Wanted to Join NATO in 2008.
France & Germany already said that even With fullfiling every Requirements in MAP , we will veto against it, Since it will seen as aggression by Russia.
IMO hindsight, they should have taken advantage of weaken Russia and should Have allowed Ukraine In NATO.
China will certainly have more Influence on CSTO countries.
AS for turkey: LOL!
Yes, Putin certainly didn't make right decision with starting this conflict.
Sheep logic is repeating Kremlin talking points.
NATO saw Russia as a partner, originally.
Partnership for Peace - Wikipedia
Nato-Russia Council - About
Ukraine is Russia's enemy now only because Russia attacked Ukraine. And yes, that Russia thinks it can get away with destroying their neighbors if they fall from the Kremlin's grasp is exactly the entirety of the appeal of NATO.
No. Nobody cares about Russia's aspiration anymore. Kazakhstan told Putin to *censored* off. Armenia told Putin to *censored* off.
A rather small part of Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2008. Majority opinion was against, and this was part of what allowed Yanukovich to be elected at the 2010 elections. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
Now all of Ukraine will want to join NATO, but that's entirely thanks to Putin.
You shouldn't laugh so lightly at Turkey about this. The Central Asian republics are all ethnically Turkic.
Organization of Turkic States - Wikipedia
Arguments are getting circled.
Ukrainian govt wanted to JIoin NATO, Russia saw that as a threat.
Since at that time Russia wasn't capable, Russia looked for Politically Influencing ukraine.
Yeah. I am not doubting their arms. BUT, Neither Turkey can provide Security umbrella like US, CHINA, RUSSIA nor it has VETO power in UNSC.You shouldn't laugh so lightly at Turkey about this. The Central Asian republics are all ethnically Turkic.
Turkey is also becoming a credible arms exporter.Organization of Turkic States - Wikipedia
CAR countries will Prefer china, Russia Over Turkey.
Hell, Turkey Itself is Under NATO security Umbrella. LOL!
Nah, Russia is busted.
Also I get the impression you read "going with either China or Turkey" or perhaps even "going with Turkey alone", when I wrote "going with China AND Turkey". Russia is out, however. That has been stated in diplomatic but rather clear terms.